I reject the creeds

[nephilimiyr]

I do find the hesitation to pronounce creeds confusing; in Romans 10 Paul is quite clear, one must believe and confess. 1 John states the same. The confession, "Jesus is Lord" is also a creed - do we insist not to say this ? In the epistles which are addressed to the already converted, Paul quotes short creedal statements. In instruction/catechism, the creed is used for instruction.

The way I see it, Romans 10 maybe talking about profession but this profession has to be from the heart. Anyone can recite a prepared statement like a creed and not truely believe it. Paul wasn't talking about reciting anything though, he was simply saying to profess from the heart.

Also, here's where alot of us non-catholic or Non-EOC people will have major difference's with you. We don't believe this profession of faith is something we have to do on a daily or once a week basis. To us this is the point one passes from being dead in spirit to alive in spirit with God. This is about the born again experience. We profess this at conversion, if you will.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I do find the hesitation to pronounce creeds confusing; in Romans 10 Paul is quite clear, one must believe and confess. 1 John states the same. The confession, "Jesus is Lord" is also a creed - do we insist not to say this ? In the epistles which are addressed to the already converted, Paul quotes short creedal statements. In instruction/catechism, the creed is used for instruction.

NO! let me bring it back to my point. Paul states short "creedal" statements. They are not formal creeds. FORMAL creeds, I.E. the Nicene creed, is an animal of a different stripe.

Just thought I'd highlight this very simple yet important point you have been trying to make.

thank you. (but if they hadn't gotten it yet....)


I

admitt though that I don't quite understand why you and others object so strongly to them. I do understand what your point is but I don't understand why such a strong rejection of them.

because oft enough those nice little Formal statments are used as a bludgeon.

Why don't you think it's imporant for a church to have a statement of faith? Because the way I see it, that is what you are objecting to.

to a degree. When you reduce the christian faith to "this is what OUR (note the disparity in that statement. OUR CHURCH) Church beleives. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. you're not fit to be here if you don't believe X-----y-----z-----.
I can see how Creedal statements do more to seperate, than they do to unify.

Shouldn't a church have the right to say this is what we believe? And don't they owe it to people, especially new comers or visitors, to state that belief so that people know what are the basic tenants of the church?

now you're talking about church shopping though.

the bsic tenets of ALL churches should be answering the question "Who is it that people say that I AM? and who is it that YOU think that I AM?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Can someone define "church" for me? Is that akin to a Denomination which to me is unscriptural.

LOL, yes, I forgot, I'm in the GT forum now, sorry.

I used it in this instance as an organized body of believers, whether it be a church or denomination or whatever, even a home church.

What is the difference for example between the creed the RCC and Orthodox use and what is different in the Creed that Protestants use compared to those 2 Denominations. Thks.

With that I'm really not interested to know. You would probably do well by Googling them and or waiting for someone here to answer that for you.

 

[Thekla]

The way I see it, Romans 10 maybe talking about profession but this profession has to be from the heart. Anyone can recite a prepared statement. Paul wasn't talking about reciting anything though, he was simply saying to profess from the heart.

This seems to assume that reciting a creed is never from the heart. The Bible itself is a "prepared statement"; does reading or quoting from it mean one is not of Christ ? But anything believed than stated makes the statement confession/creed.

Also, here's where alot of us non-catholic or Non-EOC people will have major difference's with you. We don't believe this profession of faith is something we have to do on a daily or once a week basis. To us this is the point one passes from being dead in spirit to alive in spirit with God. This is about the born again experience.

Is reading the Bible frequently evidence of being "dead in the spirit" ?



The confession, "Jesus is Lord" is also a creed - do we insist not to say this ?

 

[MrStain]

ok. I'm coming into this thread late, but I have read through the whole thing and I'm still not sure I understand the contention with formal creeds. I did zip through it, so pardon me if I missed something important.

Is it a problem with formality?
or
Is it a problem with statements of truth?

If none above the above, what is the problem?

 

[Luther073082]

I'm not reading this whole thread, but the Nicene creed is 1700 years old roughly.

No one needs to state the creed to be saved. But they need to accept everything stated in the creed to be saved.

Its been worded that way since the first council of Nicea in 325 AD.

One aught to confess what they belive regularly and the creeds are a good way to do that as they sum everything up well.

Plus they act as good teachers, since people must remember them, it prevents them from falling into heresy or following heretical doctrines.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Is reading the Bible frequently evidence of being "dead in the spirit" ?

Nice choice of words Thekla

Rotherham)Matthew 8:22 But, Jesus, saith unto him,--Be following me, and leave, the dead, to bury, their own dead.

Rotherham) Luke 9:60 And he said unto him--Leave, the dead, to bury their own dead; but, thou, departing, be declaring the kingdom of God.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Ibecause oft enough those nice little Formal statments are used as a bludgeon.

to a degree. When you reduce the christian faith to "this is what OUR (note the disparity in that statement. OUR CHURCH) Church beleives. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. you're not fit to be here if you don't believe X-----y-----z-----.
I can see how Creedal statements do more to seperate, than they do to unify.

now you're talking about church shopping though.

the bsic tenets of ALL churches should be answering the question "Who is it that people say that I AM? and who is it that YOU think that I AM?

Ah, ok, now I fully understand where you're coming from. I can't say I totally agree with you 100% but we're cool.

 

[Thekla]

NO! let me bring it back to my point. Paul states short "creedal" statements. They are not formal creeds. FORMAL creeds, I.E. the Nicene creed, is an animal of a different stripe.

Actually, he does quote actual creeds (and hymns, and scripture, etc.).
Don't make me go hunt for them

 

[Meshavrischika]

The way I see it, Romans 10 maybe talking about profession but this profession has to be from the heart. Anyone can recite a prepared statement like a creed and not truely believe it. Paul wasn't talking about reciting anything though, he was simply saying to profess from the heart.

 

[Chesterton]

thoughts?

"No Matter How Long The Line At The Cafeteria, There's Always A Seat"

 

[Uphill Battle]

The confession, "Jesus is Lord" is also a creed - do we insist not to say this ?

if you're going with the whole credo=I believe, then yes, it is.

but is it a FORMAL creed? I.E. the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, et al?

no.

which is what I'm trying to keep us focused on...

ok. I'm coming into this thread late, but I have read through the whole thing and I'm still not sure I understand the contention with formal creeds. I did zip through it, so pardon me if I missed something important.

not a problem.

Is it a problem with formality?
or
Is it a problem with statements of truth?

Neither.

If none above the above, what is the problem?

I'm looking up my post # that addresses it. I'll edit here shortly. (Post # 84.)

I'm not reading this whole thread, but the Nicene creed is 1700 years old roughly.

No one needs to state the creed to be saved. But they need to accept everything stated in the creed to be saved.

oh, really?

interesting.

I don't see it that way.

Its been worded that way since the first council of Nicea in 325 AD.

ok... then how did the Christians prior to 325 AD obtain salvation? your statement is that they have to have believed everything stated in the creed.... except the creed itself didn't exist.

One aught to confess what they belive regularly and the creeds are a good way to do that as they sum everything up well.

why? Does aditional, repetitive confession of the same beliefs have some sort of talisman effect? I believe sincerely that someone who never once acknowledges the Nicene creed at all could be every bit as justified in the sight of God as someone who reads it and affirms it on a daily basis.

Plus they act as good teachers, since people must remember them, it prevents them from falling into heresy or following heretical doctrines.

hmm. I've previously mentioned Christians that have never paid much attention to the Creed, if at all. Does it automatically fall that they are following heretical doctrines? or that without the Nicene Creed, that they will, or are more prone to than someone who can quote the creed by heart?

Ah, ok, now I fully understand where you're coming from. I can't say I totally agree with you 100% but we're cool.

don't need complete agreement, bro. understanding is enough, sometimes.

Actually, he does quote actual creeds (and hymns, and scripture, etc.).
Don't make me go hunt for them

quoting them is by no means in and of itself a bad thing. That was never my point.

 

[Uphill Battle]

"No Matter How Long The Line At The Cafeteria, There's Always A Seat"

and it usually has someone else's rear end firmly planted in it.

 

[Brennin]

You would make a great Unitarian Universalist.

Nonsense.

 

[Philothei]

It really isn't the fault of the rest of the posters if their all in right field, and you're in the left.

nice

reading scripture can be a formal, empty excercise.

Good I agree so informal or not confessions of faith can be as "empty" or they cannot... Who is to judge that they are MORE empty than "informal" ones...And BTW we should get rid of all the statements of faith from the Bible that are "included" in the Nicene Creed then as they are "formal" See how silly that argument comes to be?

 

[Viribus Unitis]

Please, be very careful, when you say somebody you are no longer a whatever but a something else. You don't know with the feelings you could be dealing with.

That's how I stopped being a Communist. (Long and old story)

 

[Philothei]

Nicene Creed 325 AD.
I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen.

so make sure you exclude al lthese statements from your bible y'all as they are statments of this formal creed

 

[Brennin]

No one needs to state the creed to be saved. But they need to accept everything stated in the creed to be saved.

I missed the part of the Bible where Peter confesses Jesus Christ is homoousios with the Father.

Its been worded that way since the first council of Nicea in 325 AD.

No, the stuff about the Spirit was added later.

 

[Viribus Unitis]

A statement can be both formal and heart-felt.

 

[Brennin]

Not because I think there is neccessarily inaccurate statments in any particular creed, but because I don't believe that a creed has really anything to do with whether or not you are redeemed by Christ.

thoughts?

Good for you!