6 point proof for the post trib rapture

[Hismessenger]

Yeshuasavedme,

here is a glaring misconcept in your post,

At the end of the great tribulation all the martyrs of the tribulation are resurrected and joined to the Church/congregation which was first translated to their new bodies at the beginning of the seven years

You make this statement but failed to see that those out of the tribulation are the church which goes through the fire. So if you look for a prior rapture before this is done, you are saying that Christ comes twice in the end times but yet the scripture say that He came once to save but when He comes again, it will be for the judgement. At that time will the rapture of the church occur, the whole church, not just part as suggested by the understanding that you have put forth.

I don't see how anyone can interpret Matt 24 as being a pretribulation rapture when it says that He shall send his angels to gather together His elect from the four corners of the earth, from one end of heaven to the other. Here is truly the rapture of the saints, all the saints. Those who die before His coming and those who will be translated at his coming. In the twinkling of an eye will this change occur. (those who remain alive) at his coming. God is able to keep His church from wrath even in the midst of the fire. This was shown over and over again in the Old testament. So what else do you need to convince you that the rapture is after the tribulation. Look at the night of the passover. God kept the people by the blood and in the morning they wer gathered from Egypt. Same scenario as the end time.

hismessenger

 

[yeshuasavedme]

You make this statement but failed to see that those out of the tribulation are the church which goes through the fire.

Sorry but you are wrong. I gave the Scriptures showing why you are wrong, but you come back with your opinion. I did not interpret the Word, I just gave it. Go look it up and check these things out from what the Word says, instead of what you have been led to believe.

The people who are martyred during the great tribulation are resurrected at the end of it, and their resurrection concludes/finishes/ends the first resurrection. That first resurrection began with the resurrection of Jesus Christ two thousand years ago, and He resurrected those saints who came out of their graves, in their resurrected and changed bodies, at His own resurrection time. Those saints walked about the city that night, and ascended with Jesus next mid-day, to the temple in heaven, where they were presented before the presense of Glory, there in the temple, to fulfill the oracle given to the namesake people by Moses of the first of firstfruits.


quote=Hismessenger So if you look for a prior rapture before this is done, you are saying that Christ comes twice in the end times but yet the scripture say that He came once to save but when He comes again, it will be for the judgement. At that time will the rapture of the church occur, the whole church, not just part as suggested by the understanding that you have put forth.

Jesus Christ calls His "Congregation" -the dead and living- to rise to meet Him in the air before the door of His temple, at the time that the call to gather to Him is given, when it is given by the sounding of the two heavenly trumpets, twice, together, to call the entire congregation to assemble befoe His door. I gave ample proof of the Scriptures which type this, in the Oracles committed to the namesake people, by Moses.


quote=Hismessenger I don't see how anyone can interpret Matt 24 as being a pretribulation rapture when it says that He shall send his angels to gather together His elect from the four corners of the earth, from one end of heaven to the other. Here is truly the rapture of the saints, all the saints.
There is no interpreattion to the passages. Jesus speaks plainly.
At the end of the great tribulation He sends His angels to gather those elect and sheep Gentiles and goat Gentiles, and the Elect martyrs of the Tribulation are resurrected. They are "gathered" from heaven. That is the end of the first resurrection. I gave ample Scriptures to prove that the angels gather those elect and bring them to stand before the returned LORD, back to Sinai; in the wilderness.
You can read about that gathering in Ezekiel 20:33-44, and what happens to them there. The angels also gather the goat Gentiles and sheep Gentiles. The sheep Gentiles enter into the millennial reign with the elect of the seed of Jacob who survived the rod of Christ in the wilderness at Sinai.
The Goat Gentiles are cast alive, body and soul, into the Lake of Fire, along with the rejects of the seed of Jacob who do not survive the passing under the Rod'Sceptre of the King of Kings and returned LORD and God of the whole earth: Jesus Christ. The elect of Jacob's seed who enter the millennial reign then repopulate the earth along with the sheep Gentiles. Both groups are then called "the Blessed of YHWH".
They are not regenerated in body and they do not die for the thousand year reign, but they do not have immortal bodies until the time of end of the thousand years.

The raptured -pre-trib- Congregation of YHWH are neither those elect of Jacob's seed who are gathered post trib by the angels and brought to the wilderness [as Ezekiel tells us about], nor are they the sheep Gentiles, which sheep Gentiles enter into the millennial kingdom on earth and repopulate it along with the elect seed of Jacob, for the thousaand year Sabbath of the reign of the King of Kings and LORD of Lords.



quote=Hismessenger Those who die before His coming and those who will be translated at his coming. In the twinkling of an eye will this change occur. (those who remain alive) at his coming. God is able to keep His church from wrath even in the midst of the fire. This was shown over and over again in the Old testament. So what else do you need to convince you that the rapture is after the tribulation. Look at the night of the passover. God kept the people by the blood and in the morning they were gathered from Egypt. Same scenario as the end time.

hismessenger

Sorry, but nope!
Enoch, the preacher of righteousness, who foretold the flood -and the great tribulation- and preached righteousness, escaped the flood by being translated and "taken away" ="laqach". Enoch types the Church, which escapes the wrath of God and is glorified in a translated body and goes to be with Him where He is.
We who are members of the Congregation of YHWH by second birth of Spirit do not remain on earth and have no part in the wrath of God poured out, and we are shut in with Him, behind closed doors, celebrating our consecration as priests in His name; while back on earth, the world and all the inhabitants of the world are "dissolved" . Psalm 75:2,3 so states that fact, in the Hebrew, and Leviticus 8 types what the sons of God do, shut behind the doors of the heavenly temple, for the seven years -a week of years, during that time of the great tribulation on earth.
Isaiah 26:19-21, and Isaiah 27 also tell us the order of the resurrection before the wrath is poured out. Psalm 50 tells us about that call to gather together unto Him, before He vindicates His own, by pouring out His wrath on earth's inhabitants.


Egypt was not yet out of Israel when Israel was called out of Egypt, so the lessons of being called out are going on in Believers' lives in this world, as Egypt represents the world of sin which we are bound as slaves to, before YHWH calls us out and totally delivers us.
Israel was given the Law on stone tablets 50 days after the call out of Egypt. In Christ, we who are born again have the True Decalogue engraved on our New Man hearts of flesh, and we are entered into His eternal Sabbath Rest of Peace from that time; which True Sabbeth Rest Israel only got as a sign of that which was to come, and which they never, ever, entered into, themselves, but rejected.

Hbr 4:1 THEREFORE, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
Hbr 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
Hbr 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

"So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest,'"[

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hbr 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
Hbr 4:5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
Hbr 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hbr 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:

"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."

Hbr 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hbr 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Hbr 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Hbr 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hbr 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
Hbr 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Hismessenger]

Jesusfreak5000,

You make this statement;

While all are saved by grace through faith, I and Abraham were not saved the exact same way. Abraham did not place faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ - he believed in the promises of God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. He did not have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit, either. There are obvious differences between us, discontinuities, if you will.

But in fact and truth Christ as an eyewitness to this fact makes this statement;

Jhn 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad."

I really don't understand how it can be so often missed when Isaiah talked of His coming, David wrotes paslms about His coming and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is not some new thing and we are not suppose to act as the jews did, thinking that they were so much above the gentiles when in fact they came from gentiles in Abraham. A gentile saved by grace.

God talked face to face with Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. So how do you equate this with your statement. And what did God say to His fellow travelers about His servant Abraham;

Gen 18:17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

This statenment has more implications than what is written but if you can hear in the spirit you will know the truth. Especially when you relate this to what had been foretold to Abraham about His seed.

hismessenger

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jesusfreak5000,

You make this statement;



But in fact and truth Christ as an eyewitness to this fact makes this statement;



I really don't understand how it can be so often missed when Isaiah talked of His coming, David wrotes paslms about His coming and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is not some new thing and we are not suppose to act as the jews did, thinking that they were so much above the gentiles when in fact they came from gentiles in Abraham. A gentile saved by grace.

God talked face to face with Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. So how do you equate this with your statement. And what did God say to His fellow travelers aboout His servant Abraham;


This statenment has more implications than what is written but if you can hear in the spirit you will know the truth. Especially when you relate this to what had been foretold to Abraham about His seed.

hismessenger

True, on the Atonement; in fact AbraHAm acted as a living prophet, with Isaac also, and both rehearsed the Day of Atonement, in the sacrifice of Isaac. The book of Jasher makes it clear that AbraHAm understood the significance of the Day of Atonement, as the Day of YHWH come in flesh, as Kinsman to Adam to ransom the race and the lost world. AbraHAm performed a rehearsal of that Day in the Lamb's blood atonement. Then AbraHAm named Mount Moriah "YHWH SEEN", understanding the Atonement.

The Psalmist also understood the significance fo the Day of Atonement which AbraHAm saw and rejoiced in, as written in Psalm 118. "This is the Day YHWH hath made" -from the foundation of the world- when "our God" is seen, bound to the altar as the door/gate of entry, to the City of righteousness.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Jesusfreak5000,

You make this statement;

But in fact and truth Christ as an eyewitness to this fact makes this statement;

I really don't understand how it can be so often missed when Isaiah talked of His coming, David wrotes paslms about His coming and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is not some new thing and we are not suppose to act as the jews did, thinking that they were so much above the gentiles when in fact they came from gentiles in Abraham. A gentile saved by grace.

God talked face to face with Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. So how do you equate this with your statement. And what did God say to His fellow travelers about His servant Abraham;


This statenment has more implications than what is written but if you can hear in the spirit you will know the truth. Especially when you relate this to what had been foretold to Abraham about His seed.

hismessenger

Once again, you see continuity; I see discontinuity.

There are aspects of Abraham's salvation that are not like mine. Abraham was not of the church; the church was instituted by Christ, remember?

Mat 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

It was not built at the time of Abraham. It was not built at the time of Christ either; the greek infers an entirely new condition to be instituted, specifically, at the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. Those who do not have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit given as a pledge of their inheritance are not part of the church.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Heb 11:1-37.... different acts of faith

Heb 11:39-40 but we ... have a better promise

 

[Hismessenger]

There can be no discontinuity in the plan of God for He is not a man that He should second guess himself. It is all tied into the single plan of God to which we are only wisps of observers here for a twinkling of His eye. What part of Abrahams salvation is different from yours. Are you not a sinner saved by grace as He was also. Are you not called the same as He was. I Don't see where there is any difference, but I'll listen if you have some to present.

hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

better benifits

Jews promise the earth...

We are promise the heavens ...

If not saved .... Hell

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

There can be no discontinuity in the plan of God for He is not a man that He should second guess himself. It is all tied into the single plan of God to which we are only wisps of observers here for a twinkling of His eye. What part of Abrahams salvation is different from yours. Are you not a sinner saved by grace as He was also. Are you not called the same as He was. I Don't see where there is any difference, but I'll listen if you have some to present.

hismessenger

I've already stated that Abraham was not "sealed with the Spirit of promise", nor was he ever stated to be "the body of Christ".

I never said there was discontinuity in "the plan of God". You are ascribing something to me that I never said. There is discontinuity between the salvation of those before Christ under law, and those who are in the Church. You will try to give me reasons why they are similar, yet I will give you reasons why they are different; hence the reason why I said continuity vs. discontinuity. There are obviously similarities in the way God redeems some men from others. However, the differences are enough to show that we are not all under an all-encompassing covenant of grace.

Honestly, I believe the eschatology of classic dispensationalism is enough to show that Covenant theology is irreconcilable...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

HEB 11:5-17 IS ABRAM.... but he does not recieve the better promises of heb 11:39-40

 

[Breckmin]

I was raised pre-tribulational dispensationalist. The nice thing is I wasn't in a position that I was stuck with it. When I wanted to write a book proving it because I was so adamant about it I dove into history. I'm not going to go into the Margret MacDonald
and MacDonald brothers history. My objection is with John Nelson Darby. He should have known better. And DL Moody who I consider to be one of the greatest was proven that he was far from perfect as a systematic theologian. The main reason
that I hung on to pre-trib for 2 years arguing (after I discovered its history) was because so many pastors who I looked up to held to the view.

Quite simply. It was based on "induction." Just like evolution and other systems
like universalism. it was clearly hermeneutic induction and I knew that lies were
spread all through the 19th Century by this type of induction from the scriptures.
The Left Behind series may help scare and save people. Any way they get saved
is the greater eternal good regardless of Left Behind being eschatological fiction.

I believe very strongly that the pre-trib rapture position is a deception in the
evangelical churches today and it will remain so until the anti-christ is revealed
and Christians are mocked as in 2 Peter 3:4. If you think about it, the rapture
not happening when so many Christians said it would fulfills this verse.

I do not believe in 2 raptures. There is only 1 rapture, the Coming of the Lord
at the last hour, just before the battle of Armageddon. It is NOT that we "go
up and come down" (foolishness). It is a gathering together for war just like in
the O.T. at the seventh trumpet. The last trumpet is the same last trumpet
as the seventh trumpet in Revelation. This is a no brainer. All we have to do
is quit dancing around different texts and take a literal interpretation of the
whole scriptures.'
Look carefully at the difference between induction and deduction. Deduction,
Christians suffer in every Century, therefore Christians will also suffer in the
tribulation and not be rescued out. The early Christians were fed to the lions,
so why would "we" be so privileged to be somehow rescued??? The scriptures
also teach in Peter that when we suffer for what is right and endure it, this finds
favor with God (I Peter 2:20). Deduction, martyrdom is a beautiful thing and God
will reward us greatly for it. Why would He then remove us from that privilege???

Now lets look at "induction" that leads to error. Noah was rescued therefore we
should be rescued... (were the apostles in the church age?) John was raised up
to heaven in Revelation 4:1, (but He didn't come back down in Rev. 19, BTW)
therefore we should be raised up... More induction, "the Hebrews were delivered
out of Egypt therefore we will be delivered out of the tribulation" But we know
that was to model coming out of slavery to the world and the flesh and being
delivered by being born-again how can we somehow use "induction" to apply
it to eschatology and say it refers to the rapture (or 2 raptures).

I realize some of this is making a strawman out of pre-trib, BUT clearly all
individual verses that are used out of context to try and go the scriptures
like a smorgasbord and choose a verse here and a verse there in the name
of systematic theology (clearly a purile systematic theology) to try to teach
a theory based on induction is what Dallas, and Talbot and many other
conservative seminaries have been guilty of with their eschatology.

Can pre-trib even stand up to a debate against post-trib in a verse for verse
exchange? I have ONE challenge for the pre-trib believer!!!
PRAY!
Pray for protection from that which is not true!
Pray that God will protect you from anything that is not from Him! Pray that
if the pre-trib position is somehow a deception from muliple inductions from
scripture, that God will protect you from it, and pray the same thing regarding
this post. If I am speaking "lies" about the pre-trib rapture, then pray that
God will protect you, BUT don't hold on to pre-trib just because famous pastors
whom you and I love preach it on the radio and in our churches. These same
pastors also used to teach that it was impossible for a Christian to be demonized
because the believer was filled with the Holy Spirit, until Neil Anderson and others
published books drawing attention to the Christians who need deliverance.

There will be one rapture and gathering just before Armageddon. Don't teach 2
when the bible doesn't teach two. One Return of Christ. 2nd Advent, not 3rd.
Do not be deceived, for it will not happen until the man of lawlessness (the anti-
christ) is revealed.

In Christ, always, I pray blessings for anyone who reads this,
Michael

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I have 1 cor 15:20-24.... please address scripture....

or define who are the elders in rev 4-5 with scripture
are they angels
are they OT saints
are they Cherubs
are they Serphim
are they NT Saints

by scripture

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

All we have to do is quit dancing around different texts and take a literal interpretation of the whole scriptures.'.

Maybe you should try it, because dispensationalism is the only view that is employs a consistent literal hermeneutic.

Can pre-trib even stand up to a debate against post-trib in a verse for verse exchange?

Let's see!

Do not be deceived, for it will not happen until the man of lawlessness (the anti-christ) is revealed.

Almost every english translation gets this wrong. It should be rendered "if the apostasy and man of lawlessness have not been revealed, then the Day of the Lord is not present."

 

[Hismessenger]

JF5000
You look at bits and pieces of a total plan and try to make conclusions by what you read. This is part of the same plan which God has set in motion and will bring to His accepted end in His time. This is part of the misconception by many religious zealots who fail to see that God Is not governed by time nor space nor any of the things which we perceive to be logical in our understanding. We give lip service and say that God is in control and then turn right around and try to say what God won't do or can't do which when you look at it, if we can do this, then He is not the sovereign God we pay lip service too without truly understanding that what you think, he is the sustaining force which allows you the opportunity to fulfill the plan which He has us going through in the creation. You have no thoughts, actions or even breath without the Fathers will for it to be so.

Now I will say this to you in that you say Abraham was not of the church, but yet if you truly understood the word you would realize that the seed of Abraham are what are to become the church. In Essence, Abraham was the beginning of the church which Christ is building from ages past, not limited by time nor dispensation but by eternal decree.

hismessenger

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

JF5000
You look at bits and pieces of a total plan and try to make conclusions by what you read. This is part of the same plan which God has set in motion and will bring to His accepted end in His time. This is part of the misconception by many religious zealots who fail to see that God Is not governed by time nor space nor any of the things which we perceive to be logical in our understanding. We give lip service and say that God is in control and then turn right around and try to say what God won't do or can't do which when you look at it, if we can do this, then He is not the sovereign God we pay lip service too without truly understanding that what you think, he is the sustaining force which allows you the opportunity to fulfill the plan which He has us going through in the creation. You have no thoughts, actions or even breath without the Fathers will for it to be so.

Now I will say this to you in that you say Abraham was not of the church, but yet if you truly understood the word you would realize that the seed of Abraham are what are to become the church. In Essence, Abraham was the beginning of the church which Christ is building from ages past, not limited by time nor dispensation but by eternal decree.

hismessenger

First of all, how my disregarding Abraham as the start of the Church has anything to with me denying God's eternal decree I have no idea.

Abraham's seed did not become the church: that is, those who descended from Jacob were not part of the Church. How many more times do I have to say this!? Show me where I and Jacob have any relationship? I am said to be a spiritual descendant, yes. But where this makes the Church and Israel a distinct body, I have no idea.

I said it before and I will say it again: Jesus said He will build His church - future. To mark the start of that, He and the Father sent the Holy Spirit, which is the mark of one who is a part of the Church.

Now please explain to me how Abraham/Jacob were part of the same Church that I am a part of when they were never sealed with the Spirit?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Heb 11:3-20 abraham... was not given the promise that God gave us... heb 11:39-40

 

[Hismessenger]

You ask how are we connected to Abraham, read and know the truth.

Gen 22:18In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice

Gal 3:7Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

Gal 3:8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], "In you all the nations shall be blessed.

"*Gal 3:9So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The first verse is talking About Abraham. Are you not a nation which has been blessed because of His obedience

Is not the church based on faith which began with Abraham according to Gal 3:7

Did not God preach the gospel to Abraham according to Gal 3:8

Is not your faith blessing you for your belief according to Gal 3:9

Now show me where we are different. Elijah and Moses appeared with Christ on the mount of transfiguration so how is it that the belief can be that they are not saved and are an integral part of the church. They held the mystery of the church in their hearts long before you or I came into being in the physical but not before God had deemed it to be so in eternity.

God is not partial as man would believe and one day He will show you His truth that we can't get a grasp on now, Believeing that He has seperated
the old from the new is illogical for from the old came the old/new. God the same yesterday today and forevermore Amen.

Jacob was of the seed of Abraham. The word Israel means the people of God. Who are these people? Those who believed by faith. And finally to put the nail in the coffin this verse from Hebrews

Hbr 11:13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,* embraced [them] and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

hismessenger

 

[GoodNewsJournalist]

I'm definitely post trib.

People have this warped POV that the seal judgments are God punishing humanity. No. God judges those who judge others with the same measure they judge with. So, rather, the seal judgments are against those who attack those of the Christian Faith. God goes out and battles those who inflict harm on his children, therefore, every single judgment in scripture is the result of people who want to bring us harm, done by God to them and them alone.

That is one of the huge reasons why I remain confident in this time of uncertainity, because why would God punish me, one of his children!

Persecution is happening, and will continue to happen, but they're nothing. I feel sorry for the presuctors!

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

You ask how are we connected to Abraham, read and know the truth.

I never asked the sort. I asked how Abraham and I are part of the same Church, or, Body of Christ. I know we are "connected", as you say. So I now assume this whole post will be a refutation of something I never asserted... next time why don't you actually take some time to understand what I wrote instead of responding in haste.

The first verse is talking About Abraham. Are you not a nation which has been blessed because of His obedience

Yes, I am. And so is everyone else, Christian or not. So this doesn't connect Abraham to the body of Christ.

Is not the church based on faith which began with Abraham according to Gal 3:7

Faith in what? Sure, all people are saved by faith. This is a similarity. However, it fails to prove that Abraham's salvation was the same as mine, and that He is part of the Body of Christ. The verse never says that Abraham is part of the Church. Please show me where it does if you can find it in there...

Did not God preach the gospel to Abraham according to Gal 3:8

Is not your faith blessing you for your belief according to Gal 3:9

There is something going on here that you are not seeing, or at least not pointing out.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as {referring} to many, but {rather} to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

That is how all of the nations are blessed. Through Christ. Through Abraham's seed, Christ came, and all of the nations of the earth (Gentiles) may be blessed through Him.

Now show me where we are different. Elijah and Moses appeared with Christ on the mount of transfiguration so how is it that the belief can be that they are not saved and are an integral part of the church. They held the mystery of the church in their hearts long before you or I came into being in the physical but not before God had deemed it to be so in eternity.

How many times do I have to say this before I get an answer from you? The church started in Acts chapter 2. How could they be part of the Church when it wasn't even in existence yet??? Christ used the future tense when He said he will build His church. Christ obviously hadn't done it yet then.

God is not partial as man would believe and one day He will show you His truth that we can't get a grasp on now, Believeing that He has seperated the old from the new is illogical for from the old came the old/new. God the same yesterday today and forevermore Amen.

Great theory, but... as I have already stated, the Scriptures show a distinction between Israel and the Church. Sorry. The Church was instituted in Acts chapter 2. It wasn't in existence before that. I have shown that over and over and you have yet to say anything about it.

Jacob was of the seed of Abraham. The word Israel means the people of God.

The meaning of the term is debatable...

Who are these people? Those who believed by faith.

Believed what?

And finally to put the nail in the coffin this verse from Hebrews

hismessenger

What promises? You assume too much.

Dispensationalists affirm that belief in the promises, or belief in what God has told them is the way to salvation. The object of that belief changes, but it is always by faith. Abraham believed God's promises, that is why He was saved. However, He did not believe in Christ's atoning sacrifice and work on the cross as his only way to salvation like we do.

Always by faith, however, the object of that faith changes throughout the dispensations.

 

[get it right]

interisting