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Memes of Young Earth Creationism

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laptoppop

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Unapologetically Christian
YEC is an unapologetically Christian position. It accepts as axiomatic:
** the existence of God who is active in our world and in our history
** there are things which go beyond the natural – the supernatural
** Scripture is inspired by God and represents much more than human knowledge and opinion – it is a valuable resource for understanding our world

The scientific method is useful if you understand its limitations
The scientific method is a great way to investigate and understand normal, natural processes and interactions.

However, by design the scientific method excludes the supernatural. If you insist on limiting your understanding to that which can be demonstrated using the scientific method then by definition you are deciding in advance that either God does not exist, or that He does not work in history. There is no “natural” explanation for miracles, the resurrection, or future-revealing prophecy for example, but they come from direct actions of a loving God.

This is not to say that the scientific method is not useful, just that we need to understand its limitations.

“God did it” is not an unreasonable position but should be used carefully
The truth is that God is alive, He loves us, and He has directly acted in real ways. Such actions are SUPERnatural – i.e. beyond that which is normal, natural, expected.

This does not mean that we should use this as an excuse for intellectual laziness. We should always try to learn more. God has put together wonderful complex systems and their beauty, complexity, and engineering is a tribute to His design.

Where our understanding of scripture differs with our interpretation of the evidence, we should examine BOTH carefully. If there are two competing explanations of the physical evidence, and one agrees more with scripture, the agreeing explanation is to be preferred.

Respect
I may be wrong, but I am not a liar. I may be mistaken, or even fooling myself on some particular point, but I am not deliberately deceiving anyone. I love the Lord, and seek to follow Him daily.

I can believe that you are wrong. I can believe you are mistaken. You can disagree with me, and still be intelligent and honest. You can be wrong in various beliefs, and still love the same Lord, and seek to follow Him daily.

I can be deeply concerned about the theological and even the practical implications of particular beliefs, and yet still respect the intelligence, honesty, and faith of those who disagree with me.

Scientific consensus
It is normal and natural for there to be differing views. It is normal and natural for there to be a majority view and different minority views. It is normal for the holders of the majority view to hold the minority view in disregard and vice-versa.

It is common for holders of the majority view to make fun of people who hold minority views, but it is not appropriate behavior for Christians. This is especially true of items which touch theology and science both such as origins theology, where certain principles such as scriptural interpretation become issues of faith.

However, truth is not determined by a popular vote. There have been many times throughout history where the majority view is proved wrong later. The evidence is more important than the number of people who hold to a particular opinion.

Objections versus accepted proof
It is important to understand the difference between stating an objection to something and having someone else accept your objection as true. For example, let’s say that person A says that they cannot accept that feature B came about through evolution. Person C describes a highly implausible method in which they feel that feature B could have arisen – but gives no evidence, just conjecture. While this has some modest weight, it is reasonable both that person A has not been convinced and that person C has been convinced. Person A is under no obligation to accept the explanation or to represent the opposing opinion. Certainly most evolutionists do not note YEC interpretations of the data in their discussions. Both people are honest, intelligent, and rational. Person A is able to continue to use feature B as evidence of the implausible nature of evolution without intellectual dishonesty.

Scripture consists of more than just human knowledge
It is important to understand that Scripture consists of more than just the human knowledge and worldview of those people used to write it. These “God-breathed” documents contain knowledge and wisdom beyond any person. As a stamp of authenticity, God includes prophecies of the future which go beyond human knowledge.

This does not mean that there are not a variety of literary styles used in the Scriptures, including allegory, stories, parables, poetry, etc.

Being provided by God through inspired people, the Scriptures speak not just to the people at the time, but to us as well.

This also does not eliminate the possibility of transmissive errors through copying and recopying – although discoveries of items such as the dead sea scrolls reveal how small such errors have been.

The biggest difference between YEC and evolution is a global flood
One of the key issues between YEC and evolution is how the geologic strata and fossils are interpreted. A YEC viewpoint would contend that the majority of the strata was formed during the flood period (including a couple of hundred years after the flood), with some formations representing the pre-flood world, and other formations coming after the flood. An evolutionary viewpoint would contend that the majority of the strata has been formed over millions of years using basically uniformitarian processes.

Proponents of each viewpoint will tend to interpret the fossils and formations in light of their viewpoint. The viewpoints quickly become data filters, and outlying data points are often discarded or discredited.

To someone holding the YEC viewpoint, uniformitarian geologic interpretation and denial of a global flood is a direct fulfillment of the prophecy in II Peter 3:

2Pe 3:3-6 KJV Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Competing evidentiary models
YEC and TE can be seen as competing ways of accounting for the actual evidence that we have, such as fossils and the geologic formations.

These frameworks, or models, can drastically affect the way one approaches a given piece of actual data. As new data is presented, it is typically interpreted in light of the model which is chosen.

Argumentum Ad Hominem
It is possible to find people who have faked evidence or acted poorly who hold either the YEC or TE viewpoint. This does not mean anything about the viewpoints themselves. The fact that some “missing link” fossils were faked does not discredit the theory, just the person doing the fakery.

At the same time, we must exercise extreme care before we call someone a liar or fraud. Just because they hold a viewpoint we feel has been discredited is not enough of a proof.

It is much more productive to discuss the evidence rather than descend into name calling. In viewing the evidence, it is important to consider mature developed expressions of the viewpoints instead of popularizations or novice views. In each case, more developed expressions, such as peer-reviewed research papers, are to be preferred over popularizations. Because of the difference in the number of adherents, there are only a handful of peer-reviewed journals and conferences available for publishing YEC related material.

Being able to knock down a “straw man” does not prove anything. For example, the global flood is often viewed simplistically. The more mature YEC viewpoints have demonstrated that such a flood would have extreme and wide variations both spatially and temporally. Computer modeling of flood conditions by ICR has shown that there would likely be moving hypercanes, as well as moving areas of relative calm.
 

Matthewj1985

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What a great post!

While there is really nothing to debate here, I would like to bring up a few thoughts I had while I was reading.


Unapologetically Christian
YEC is an unapologetically Christian position. It accepts as axiomatic:
** the existence of God who is active in our world and in our history
** there are things which go beyond the natural – the supernatural
** Scripture is inspired by God and represents much more than human knowledge and opinion – it is a valuable resource for understanding our world

The scientific method is useful if you understand its limitations
The scientific method is a great way to investigate and understand normal, natural processes and interactions.

However, by design the scientific method excludes the supernatural. If you insist on limiting your understanding to that which can be demonstrated using the scientific method then by definition you are deciding in advance that either God does not exist, or that He does not work in history. There is no “natural” explanation for miracles, the resurrection, or future-revealing prophecy for example, but they come from direct actions of a loving God.

This is not to say that the scientific method is not useful, just that we need to understand its limitations.

This is where "Creation Science" and real science diverge. Real science is here to explain the world around us, everything from why my toilet water goes one way when I flush it to why someone with stage 4 cancer lived and happened to have people praying for them. Inserting "the hand of God" into a debate on origins is simply irrational. For all intents and purposes you are saying "all knowing, all seeing, all powerful invisible being that leaves zero evidence did this". In what other setting would this be considered rational? If your wife came home from work and told you that aliens had transported her home from work but her car is in the driveway, would you consider that a rational statement?

“God did it” is not an unreasonable position but should be used carefully
The truth is that God is alive, He loves us, and He has directly acted in real ways. Such actions are SUPERnatural – i.e. beyond that which is normal, natural, expected.

This does not mean that we should use this as an excuse for intellectual laziness. We should always try to learn more. God has put together wonderful complex systems and their beauty, complexity, and engineering is a tribute to His design.

Where our understanding of scripture differs with our interpretation of the evidence, we should examine BOTH carefully. If there are two competing explanations of the physical evidence, and one agrees more with scripture, the agreeing explanation is to be preferred.

I agree to an extent. If you want to use the bible as a reference book (like AV1811 likes to do) then you need to be able to vouch for the validity of the bible as a reference material. Of course this is impossible since the only proof that the bible is the word of the creator of the universe is that the bible says it is. So the bible as a reference book is on the same plane as the Koran and Book of Mormon. If you want to argue for a young earth using science and logic then be my guest, the second you start quoting scripture as a source, you lose.

Respect
I may be wrong, but I am not a liar. I may be mistaken, or even fooling myself on some particular point, but I am not deliberately deceiving anyone. I love the Lord, and seek to follow Him daily.

I can believe that you are wrong. I can believe you are mistaken. You can disagree with me, and still be intelligent and honest. You can be wrong in various beliefs, and still love the same Lord, and seek to follow Him daily.

I can be deeply concerned about the theological and even the practical implications of particular beliefs, and yet still respect the intelligence, honesty, and faith of those who disagree with me.

This is another grey area. If I really do believe in my heart that the holocaust never happened and tell people as such, am I a liar? How about after I am taken to one of the camps in Germany and shown photos and videos of what really went on? In my book, if you still go around telling people that it never happened, then you are a liar. In the case of creationism, if your arguement has been shown to you to be factually wrong and you continue to use it then you are knowingly trying to decieve people.

Scientific consensus
It is normal and natural for there to be differing views. It is normal and natural for there to be a majority view and different minority views. It is normal for the holders of the majority view to hold the minority view in disregard and vice-versa.

It is common for holders of the majority view to make fun of people who hold minority views, but it is not appropriate behavior for Christians. This is especially true of items which touch theology and science both such as origins theology, where certain principles such as scriptural interpretation become issues of faith.

However, truth is not determined by a popular vote. There have been many times throughout history where the majority view is proved wrong later. The evidence is more important than the number of people who hold to a particular opinion.

This comes back to the point of creationism not really being legitimate science. Sure there are tons of minority views on various things in science but the big difference is that they are actually real theories, not ideas. Take for instance String Theory. The proponants of the theory had an actual mathmatical model for their theory. Creationism on the other hand has the bible and then tries to poke holes in evolution. I have yet to see a YEC actually articulate why their idea is scientifically valid.

Objections versus accepted proof
It is important to understand the difference between stating an objection to something and having someone else accept your objection as true. For example, let’s say that person A says that they cannot accept that feature B came about through evolution. Person C describes a highly implausible method in which they feel that feature B could have arisen – but gives no evidence, just conjecture. While this has some modest weight, it is reasonable both that person A has not been convinced and that person C has been convinced. Person A is under no obligation to accept the explanation or to represent the opposing opinion. Certainly most evolutionists do not note YEC interpretations of the data in their discussions. Both people are honest, intelligent, and rational. Person A is able to continue to use feature B as evidence of the implausible nature of evolution without intellectual dishonesty.

How about when person D comes up, explains it, answers all their questions and then shows them the evidence. If person A sees it and says "nope, sorry, impossible" then that person is irrational. The what about when person B flatly denies that the evidence even exists at all, keep in mind that person D is actually holding said evidence in his hand.

Scripture consists of more than just human knowledge
It is important to understand that Scripture consists of more than just the human knowledge and worldview of those people used to write it. These “God-breathed” documents contain knowledge and wisdom beyond any person. As a stamp of authenticity, God includes prophecies of the future which go beyond human knowledge.

This does not mean that there are not a variety of literary styles used in the Scriptures, including allegory, stories, parables, poetry, etc.

Being provided by God through inspired people, the Scriptures speak not just to the people at the time, but to us as well.

This also does not eliminate the possibility of transmissive errors through copying and recopying – although discoveries of items such as the dead sea scrolls reveal how small such errors have been.

The biggest difference between YEC and evolution is a global flood
One of the key issues between YEC and evolution is how the geologic strata and fossils are interpreted. A YEC viewpoint would contend that the majority of the strata was formed during the flood period (including a couple of hundred years after the flood), with some formations representing the pre-flood world, and other formations coming after the flood. An evolutionary viewpoint would contend that the majority of the strata has been formed over millions of years using basically uniformitarian processes.

If creation science wants to do real science then they need to start publishing papers in real, peer reviewed scientific journals instead of making museams and websites. I have a real hard time with the idea that you guys actually have evidence to support your claims, but the global scientific conspiricy is keeping you out of real science journals. I won't take creationism seriously till you get your colective act together and start doing REAL science.

Proponents of each viewpoint will tend to interpret the fossils and formations in light of their viewpoint. The viewpoints quickly become data filters, and outlying data points are often discarded or discredited.

Would you mind citing a few examples of evidence that you "interpret" to point to a young earth?

To someone holding the YEC viewpoint, uniformitarian geologic interpretation and denial of a global flood is a direct fulfillment of the prophecy in II Peter 3:

2Pe 3:3-6 KJV Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Competing evidentiary models
YEC and TE can be seen as competing ways of accounting for the actual evidence that we have, such as fossils and the geologic formations.

These frameworks, or models, can drastically affect the way one approaches a given piece of actual data. As new data is presented, it is typically interpreted in light of the model which is chosen.

Argumentum Ad Hominem
It is possible to find people who have faked evidence or acted poorly who hold either the YEC or TE viewpoint. This does not mean anything about the viewpoints themselves. The fact that some “missing link” fossils were faked does not discredit the theory, just the person doing the fakery.

At the same time, we must exercise extreme care before we call someone a liar or fraud. Just because they hold a viewpoint we feel has been discredited is not enough of a proof.

It is much more productive to discuss the evidence rather than descend into name calling. In viewing the evidence, it is important to consider mature developed expressions of the viewpoints instead of popularizations or novice views. In each case, more developed expressions, such as peer-reviewed research papers, are to be preferred over popularizations. Because of the difference in the number of adherents, there are only a handful of peer-reviewed journals and conferences available for publishing YEC related material.

Being able to knock down a “straw man” does not prove anything. For example, the global flood is often viewed simplistically. The more mature YEC viewpoints have demonstrated that such a flood would have extreme and wide variations both spatially and temporally. Computer modeling of flood conditions by ICR has shown that there would likely be moving hypercanes, as well as moving areas of relative calm.
 
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laptoppop

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Michael - this is the wrong forum for debate of this kind. I will say just a couple of things, but for debate, take it to the OT forum.

1) I don't really care if YEC is classified as "real science" or "legitimate science" by you or even by the "general scientific community". I care if it is true or false. My YEC worldview absolutely includes an active loving God, which is not true of "science" in general. Since He is real and active, any discussion of history must include Him.

2) Since God is real and active, His revelation in Scripture is a perfectly valid source. This is the Christian origins theology area, not the general evolution area.

3) If honest, you might be interested in some of the following resources:
http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_papers/
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/abstracts.htm
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/2011/

Note that most ministries related to creationism are more interested in reaching the most people possible, as opposed to convincing the much smaller scientific community. Much of the materials are therefore geared for the general audience. Also, while there is a good number of phd scientists who are YECs, their number is dwarfed by the non-theistic scientific community, and so it is not reasonable to expect the same number of resources to be available.

Again, this is not the right forum for debate. You might copy any points you are interested in into the OT forum and see if anyone wants to debate them.
 
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vossler

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This may be a familiar refrain from the days gone past but I'm sure it isn't any surprise that I'm in complete agreement with the OP. I would add one thing however that I feel you inadvertently omitted. You stated the biggest difference between YEC and evolution was the global flood. That's certainly true, but I would put common descent even above that. Anyway, great post and wonderful mark of your return. :thumbsup:
 
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laptoppop

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Yah, there's a lot left out -- this was a post, not a set of books. <grin>

The reason I put the flood as so crucial is because your view of a global flood directly affects how you interpret the physical evidence. I don't think it is consistent to believe in a global flood and not see the strata and fossils as quickly laid down, and I don't think you can see the strata as taking millions of years to deposit and believe in a global flood because then the flood would have left no evidence.

I agree descent is a crucial difference as well -- but it is almost a side effect of how you view and date the strata.

This is why the ICR folks went and researched radiometric dating and found evidence of real issues. This is why evolutionists twist themselves in knots to defend strata out of order, misplaced fossils, and c14 where there should be none, etc. Each group is trying to reconcile their view of the flood with the physical realities.
 
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mark kennedy

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Unapologetically Christian
YEC is an unapologetically Christian position. It accepts as axiomatic:
** the existence of God who is active in our world and in our history
** there are things which go beyond the natural &#8211; the supernatural
** Scripture is inspired by God and represents much more than human knowledge and opinion &#8211; it is a valuable resource for understanding our world

I would add uncritically that the Scriptures are historical in their content. Not all the books of the Bible are historical in nature but the ones that are witness to the wonderful works of God throughout human history.

The scientific method is useful if you understand its limitations
The scientific method is a great way to investigate and understand normal, natural processes and interactions.

My view of science is that it is epistemology (theories of knowledge) and is mainly about tools, mental and physical.

Man is a tool using animal. Weak in himself and of small stature, he stands on a basis of some half square foot, had to straddle out his lges lest the very winds supplant him. Nevertheless, he can use tools, can devise tools; with these the granite mountain melts into light dust before him; seas are his smooth highway, winds and fire his unwearying steeds. Nowhere do you find him without tools. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. (Thomas Carlyle 1795-1881)​

However, by design the scientific method excludes the supernatural. If you insist on limiting your understanding to that which can be demonstrated using the scientific method then by definition you are deciding in advance that either God does not exist, or that He does not work in history. There is no &#8220;natural&#8221; explanation for miracles, the resurrection, or future-revealing prophecy for example, but they come from direct actions of a loving God.

Not when literally understood to be knowledge, which is the actual meaning of the word. Theology is in fact a science just not a natural science, I think that is an important distinction.

This is not to say that the scientific method is not useful, just that we need to understand its limitations.

&#8220;God did it&#8221; is not an unreasonable position but should be used carefully
The truth is that God is alive, He loves us, and He has directly acted in real ways. Such actions are SUPERnatural &#8211; i.e. beyond that which is normal, natural, expected.

God is beyond nature, theologicans call it the aseity (utter independence) of God. For God it is perfectly natural to create the universe from nothing or Adam from the death or Israel from a dead womb. For us it seems miraculous but for God it is perfectly natural. God normally and naturally does what only God can do.

Where our understanding of scripture differs with our interpretation of the evidence, we should examine BOTH carefully. If there are two competing explanations of the physical evidence, and one agrees more with scripture, the agreeing explanation is to be preferred.

I don't happen to think there is a conflict there.

Respect
I may be wrong, but I am not a liar. I may be mistaken, or even fooling myself on some particular point, but I am not deliberately deceiving anyone. I love the Lord, and seek to follow Him daily.

I can believe that you are wrong. I can believe you are mistaken. You can disagree with me, and still be intelligent and honest. You can be wrong in various beliefs, and still love the same Lord, and seek to follow Him daily.

I can be deeply concerned about the theological and even the practical implications of particular beliefs, and yet still respect the intelligence, honesty, and faith of those who disagree with me.

What a wonderful witness.

Scientific consensus
It is normal and natural for there to be differing views. It is normal and natural for there to be a majority view and different minority views. It is normal for the holders of the majority view to hold the minority view in disregard and vice-versa.

It is common for holders of the majority view to make fun of people who hold minority views, but it is not appropriate behavior for Christians. This is especially true of items which touch theology and science both such as origins theology, where certain principles such as scriptural interpretation become issues of faith.

Yea and it's popular to make sport of creationists and it's encouraged by scientific and academic professionals is my problem.

However, truth is not determined by a popular vote. There have been many times throughout history where the majority view is proved wrong later. The evidence is more important than the number of people who hold to a particular opinion.

Yes and continues to buck popular opinion. They are finding that many of these so called junk DNA sequences are producing RNA sequences. When the Human Genome Project started there was a criticism that we need not sequences the entire genome, now they have found out differently.

Objections versus accepted proof
It is important to understand the difference between stating an objection to something and having someone else accept your objection as true. For example, let&#8217;s say that person A says that they cannot accept that feature B came about through evolution. Person C describes a highly implausible method in which they feel that feature B could have arisen &#8211; but gives no evidence, just conjecture. While this has some modest weight, it is reasonable both that person A has not been convinced and that person C has been convinced. Person A is under no obligation to accept the explanation or to represent the opposing opinion. Certainly most evolutionists do not note YEC interpretations of the data in their discussions. Both people are honest, intelligent, and rational. Person A is able to continue to use feature B as evidence of the implausible nature of evolution without intellectual dishonesty.

That's one of the reasons I focused on the scientific literature so long. I never liked the criticism that I did not understand the science or the evidence. Over the years I have found that most of the evolutionists are really not that well read on the actual evidence and research available.

Two false assumptions mark these debates in my mind. The assumption of universal common ancestry from a single common ancestor and the assumption if you don't make that assumption you are ignorant (i.e. incredulous)

Scripture consists of more than just human knowledge
It is important to understand that Scripture consists of more than just the human knowledge and worldview of those people used to write it. These &#8220;God-breathed&#8221; documents contain knowledge and wisdom beyond any person. As a stamp of authenticity, God includes prophecies of the future which go beyond human knowledge.

Even in figurative language the writers would be describing human history, past, present and future.

This does not mean that there are not a variety of literary styles used in the Scriptures, including allegory, stories, parables, poetry, etc.

Of course not.

Being provided by God through inspired people, the Scriptures speak not just to the people at the time, but to us as well.

Yes, and it does not only show us people from the past but ourselves as well.

This also does not eliminate the possibility of transmissive errors through copying and recopying &#8211; although discoveries of items such as the dead sea scrolls reveal how small such errors have been.

With the New Testament there are some 30,000 extant manuscripts and the meticulous copy practices of the ancient Jews very few errors have made it though.

The biggest difference between YEC and evolution is a global flood
One of the key issues between YEC and evolution is how the geologic strata and fossils are interpreted. A YEC viewpoint would contend that the majority of the strata was formed during the flood period (including a couple of hundred years after the flood), with some formations representing the pre-flood world, and other formations coming after the flood. An evolutionary viewpoint would contend that the majority of the strata has been formed over millions of years using basically uniformitarian processes.

I have to disargee, the biggest difference is the special creation of Adam and Eve. It is doctrinally hard wired to justification by faith and a local flood would not affect a single essential doctrine. Peter obviously believed in a global flood but that's about it.

Proponents of each viewpoint will tend to interpret the fossils and formations in light of their viewpoint. The viewpoints quickly become data filters, and outlying data points are often discarded or discredited.

Fossil evidence is fragmentary at best and ape fossils are getting mixed in with human ones. Homo habilis had an ape size brain as did the Taung child and yet they never entertain the question that they may well have been chimpanzee ancestors. Why? Because there is a desperate need for transitionals and to date the fossil record has not chimpanzee ancestors in the natural history museums around the world. Why? Because they are all transitional fossils marked Homo XXX or some such.

To someone holding the YEC viewpoint, uniformitarian geologic interpretation and denial of a global flood is a direct fulfillment of the prophecy in II Peter 3:

2Pe 3:3-6 KJV Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Yea, Peter clearly believed in a global flood.

Competing evidentiary models
YEC and TE can be seen as competing ways of accounting for the actual evidence that we have, such as fossils and the geologic formations.

These frameworks, or models, can drastically affect the way one approaches a given piece of actual data. As new data is presented, it is typically interpreted in light of the model which is chosen.

Yes and I would add, endlessly.

Argumentum Ad Hominem
It is possible to find people who have faked evidence or acted poorly who hold either the YEC or TE viewpoint. This does not mean anything about the viewpoints themselves. The fact that some &#8220;missing link&#8221; fossils were faked does not discredit the theory, just the person doing the fakery.

While the Piltdown Hoax was considered a fact the Taung Fossil was considered a chimpanzee. Now that it has been exposed the Homo habilis fossils are considered tools users.

David Livingstone was a Doctor, missionary, and explorer that was one of the first Europeans to cross the African continent. When he saw the slave trade going on he decided that the way to stop it was to expose it. He decided the best way to do it was to establish commercial routes through Africa, he crossed it twice and his third and final journey led him to the mouth of the Nile river where he is said to have died in prayer. In the wake of the revelations of the slave trade there were waves of Missionaries sent to Africa in the early 1880s, among them were Harry and Mary Leaky, the parents of Louis Leaky. Louis Leaky was born Aug 6, 1906 in east Africa in Kenya. Kenya is home to the now famous Oldovia Gorge (famous for Homo habilis fossils) and Lake Turkana (famous for Turkana Boy). Louis Leaky read a children's books at an early age called, 'Days before History', about Tigi who meets a spear maker, learns how to make fire and hunts Mammoths. According to his sister Julia, "he lived that book, it became his Bible really". He began collecting things his Kikuyu friends called, 'spirit razors' thinking them to be the product of Stone Age artisans. Stone tool artifacts would come to be an integral part his search for and theory of earliest man, now known as Homo habilis (handy man). Encouraged by Authur Loveridge, curator of the newly founded Nairobi National Museum he vowed, 'I firmly made up my mind that I would go until I knew all about the Stone Age".

At the same time, we must exercise extreme care before we call someone a liar or fraud. Just because they hold a viewpoint we feel has been discredited is not enough of a proof.

Did you know that the Piltdown hoax could have been exposed if anyone had bothered to look at it closely?

It is much more productive to discuss the evidence rather than descend into name calling. In viewing the evidence, it is important to consider mature developed expressions of the viewpoints instead of popularizations or novice views. In each case, more developed expressions, such as peer-reviewed research papers, are to be preferred over popularizations. Because of the difference in the number of adherents, there are only a handful of peer-reviewed journals and conferences available for publishing YEC related material.

To date no YEC paper has been published in peer-reviewed scientific literature and, to my knowledge, only three Intelligent Design papers.

Being able to knock down a &#8220;straw man&#8221; does not prove anything. For example, the global flood is often viewed simplistically. The more mature YEC viewpoints have demonstrated that such a flood would have extreme and wide variations both spatially and temporally. Computer modeling of flood conditions by ICR has shown that there would likely be moving hypercanes, as well as moving areas of relative calm.

I wish I could speak to that but I have very little interest or knowledge of geology. I had to decide early whether I would pursue the life sciences or geology, I choose the life sciences. Sorry.

Great post, I enjoyed reading and responding to it.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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laptoppop

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I would add uncritically that the Scriptures are historical in their content. Not all the books of the Bible are historical in nature but the ones that are witness to the wonderful works of God throughout human history.
Amen!

My view of science is that it is epistemology (theories of knowledge) and is mainly about tools, mental and physical.
Man is a tool using animal. Weak in himself and of small stature, he stands on a basis of some half square foot, had to straddle out his lges lest the very winds supplant him. Nevertheless, he can use tools, can devise tools; with these the granite mountain melts into light dust before him; seas are his smooth highway, winds and fire his unwearying steeds. Nowhere do you find him without tools. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. (Thomas Carlyle 1795-1881)​
Not when literally understood to be knowledge, which is the actual meaning of the word. Theology is in fact a science just not a natural science, I think that is an important distinction.
I think one issue around here is an imprecise use of the word "science." To some it means the consensus view of scientists. To others, it means knowledge gathered through the scientific method. It would be nice to either define it narrowly, or use other more descriptive terms.

God is beyond nature, theologicans call it the aseity (utter independence) of God. For God it is perfectly natural to create the universe from nothing or Adam from the death or Israel from a dead womb. For us it seems miraculous but for God it is perfectly natural. God normally and naturally does what only God can do.
:amen:

Yes and continues to buck popular opinion. They are finding that many of these so called junk DNA sequences are producing RNA sequences. When the Human Genome Project started there was a criticism that we need not sequences the entire genome, now they have found out differently.

That's one of the reasons I focused on the scientific literature so long. I never liked the criticism that I did not understand the science or the evidence. Over the years I have found that most of the evolutionists are really not that well read on the actual evidence and research available.

Two false assumptions mark these debates in my mind. The assumption of universal common ancestry from a single common ancestor and the assumption if you don't make that assumption you are ignorant (i.e. incredulous)
Yes! It's interesting how it works out. There are elements in all the different aspects and scientific disciplines that clearly favor YEC. For whatever reason, I find myself attracted to the geological aspects. Maybe its because I'm a big picture thinker.:D I'm glad the Lord has folks like you plumbing the biological aspects as well.

Even in figurative language the writers would be describing human history, past, present and future.
Absolutely.

I have to disagree, the biggest difference is the special creation of Adam and Eve. It is doctrinally hard wired to justification by faith and a local flood would not affect a single essential doctrine. Peter obviously believed in a global flood but that's about it.
I should probably avoid the term "biggest." There are a lot of differences -- geological, biological, theological, etc. I totally agree that Adam and Eve are a HUGE problem and issue for TEs. God's Word makes their uniqueness and special creation pretty well plain.

(bunch of good stuff I agree with snipped)

To date no YEC paper has been published in peer-reviewed scientific literature and, to my knowledge, only three Intelligent Design papers.
That's not strictly true -- I'll try to dig up some references. But the papers that have been published in many of the journals have been those on the fringe about minute particular issues, not those promoting YEC specifically.

But YEC is generally seen with great disdain by the general scientific community, to the point that they don't even want to "honor" it with positions in their journals. On the other hand, the concept of iron sharpening iron is still valid -- peer review can really help develop ideas. That's why I'm glad to see alternative peer reviewed YEC journals which accept papers and people coming from a faith perspective.

I wish I could speak to that but I have very little interest or knowledge of geology. I had to decide early whether I would pursue the life sciences or geology, I choose the life sciences. Sorry.

Nothing to be sorry for -- I see it as great that different folks focus on different aspects.

Thanks, and Lord Bless!
 
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