Should Christians interact with Gays at all?

[Andreusz]

That's an opinion, not a fact, and an opinion purporting a lie. Rights are also not a 'if you give me this, maaaybe I'll letcha not get gay bashed' game. Human rights are not a card game, they are basic decency and respect.

Now, given the previous post to yours, I imagine this is about teaching Christianity in school. I would also like you to know that the classrooms are not a place for debate unless the basis of the lesson is about debate. If every possible theory in science were taught kids would never learn, and therefore the curricula is narrowed down to the most pertinent and widly accepted theories. I'm sorry to say, that pseudoscience doesn't fit that bill, and therefore Creationism is not a valid topic for science class. If you want your children to be ill prepared for college, put them in private school.

You might take offense at my calling Creationism pseudoscience. I give you the first sentence of wikipedia for pseudoscience:

"Pseudoscience is defined as a body of knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that is claimed to be scientific or made to appear scientific, but does not adhere to the scientific method"

It's a good definition, but wikipedia is hardly a great source, therefore I give you a more official, but less descriptive definition from the princeton wordnet:

"an activity resembling science but based on fallacious assumptions"

Now, part of the scientific method is the requirement that any hypothesis must be falsifiable. This means that if I give a hypothesis, such as creationism, then this hypothesis must a)make a prediction and b)be capable of being proven false.

Creationism makes the claim that a god, gods, or other intelligent entity put life upon this planet. It has made many claims, but all have been shot down quite thoroughly. It's failed to produce anything of scientific value, and has failed to have any papers that I know of published about it from reputable peer-reviewed journals. Further, a claim of an intelligent, potentially omnipotent creator cannot be falsified, it cannot be proven wrong, for the same reason that one cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. By attempting to teach creationism in class you are attempting to claim that God can be falsified, because to falsify creationism you must be able to falsify God. This is patently untrue, and therefore creationism is pseudoscience and not real science. Pseudoscience doesn't belong in the class room, if it did, we'd still be giving people mercury enemas.

Nota Bene: Notice I used the term hypothesis, it's important to draw a distinction between a scientific theory and a hypothesis. The laymen definition of theory is the definition of a hypothesis, and the laymen definition of a fact is the scientific definition of a theory. Scientific facts are rare indeed. Evolution is a theory, it has a supporting body of proof, Creationism is at best a hypothesis, it has little or no supporting body of proof. We don't teach our kids unproven hypothesis' in school. So Creationism is doubly failed either by being defined pseudoscience or by being no more than 'just a hypothesis'.

Excellent post.

 

[SallyNow]

As long as our tax dollars are spent in schools to allow for agendas against christianity

What on Earth do you mean by "agendas against Christianity"? For instance, at the elementary school level: When schools teach students that families come in different forms and it is wrong to bully other children because of their family structure? When an Aboriginal from a local tribe comes in and teaches about pre-European North American history?

Or at the high school level: Courses on ancient history? Courses on comparitive religion? Both Christian clubs and GLBT support groups being allowed?

and saying if we dont like it send our kids somewhere else - but refusing to allow our tax dollars to follow us - then we will speak out.

Well, if parents do not want to get together and put a charter school together that follow state education standards, including the hiring of teachers with at least Bachelor's degree, then why should your tax dollars follow you? If parents would rather pay to send their kids to private schools that do not meet requirments and do not get tax dollars, tough.

Youve seen in this thread they want our money but not our voices and it wont be both ways.

No, "they", the schools, want your voices. They don't want your screaming. Teachers want to form a partnership with parents, but parents usually are often too busy whining to sit down and have an actual conversation. They'd often rather watch afternoon football than start a football team at their school. They'd often rather watch a TV discussion panel than go to a Parent Auxillary meeting. They often don't want to come in and volunteer, or come in and actually become partners in education. They just want to whine how their rights are violated because their children were asked not to bully the kid with two moms.

Now agree and fight for our right to send out kids to the schools of our choice using our money then hey do what you want in your own schools.

Or why not stop being so compative? Parents want the best for their children. But some parents have so much vitrol against other families - whether over political leanings, social leanings, economic ties, whatever, that they let it get in the way of actually doing what is best for the kids.

The American Christians who feel "persecuted" by American public schools are the ones who have to get off their bums and become active in their children's schools. Oh, and also NOT ENCOURAGE BULLYING even when the kid who is getting bullied is a boy who plays with dolls or a girl who outruns all the boys at football. (although probably no one would actually physically be able to bully that girl, they can do some social bullying that is worst than any broken nose)

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Why do you believe that your rights need to extend into my church or be forced on my kids? Thats not equal.

Remember that evil will not prevail against the Church. And it has been trying for two-thousand years. You'll hear evolution bantered about, you'll hear civil rights screamed about (actually both screamed about) and you'll eventually see the Christian just marginalized or worse.

So what?

We understand what will happen ultimately and we arent going to allow it.

That's right. BUT, Angel4Truth, we are called to be ready to answer these evil people. Jesus didn't face denoms and run away. He didn't walk with Satan and (Jesus didn't) hold His ears shut. And jesus was being questioned as to His very rights to say Who He was.

Value every minute interacting with our adversaries as a proof, a validation, that incarnate evil is as real as the mathematics that prove our very existence. Even if your adversary presents that they are just poor downtrodden innocents just trying to make it through life, TEST the spirits and see what you are dealing with. This is not a game on the reality side of our computer screens. Whu have seen the cunning nature of the enemies of the Church. They come in two shades, pure opposition and infiltration. The Satanic and his wolves in sheeps clothing. We were taught by Christ Jesus and the Disciples writing the New Testament text, that this is what we are up against. It's the reason the New Testament was penned in the first place. Evil people distorting Christian truth.

Don't let them balk you out of this issue. Evolution is a house of cards being run by the card company. They're not going to let it fall because they have their biggest stake in it. Evolution is not the big monster and is being challenged over and over again and is giving way to reality. And you have to see the fascination that evolutionists target Christian number one. The math just doesn't add up. Let em rant. Isn't it fascinating that you hear that private schools will doom a person, but so many successful college grads come FROM private schools and the drop out rate of secular schools is astronomical. Barack Obama, another leftist propaganda myth, went to private schools. Mr. and Mrs Obama send their children to private schools. For education and safety reasons. Again, let the math guide you. "The World" is failing people and isn't that to be expected? You have hedonism replacing morality and "anything goes" replacing ethical soundness. That math adds up to violence and vice. Well, what do you know? Our public school system. Oops, I mean our failing public school systems. The blind cannot see it, or the cause anyway.

Remember, the basis for dealing with demons for Jesus, was that they were engaged in a lie. They were living in and effecting a host. People wanted to be rid of them, but somehow, the condition in which they received them made it very difficult to be rid of the evil.

Sound familiar? Even if taken as a metaphor (which it is not), the comparison to the western ideals of society are spotlighted. There is a reason for the evil that men do. Evolution and modernity haven't saved us from our nature. Materialism is a millstone. Guess where its hanging?

Don't let this interaction with our opposition bluff you away.

The demons that Jesus encountered AND the Disciples encountered, did not enjoy the truth staring them in the face of their host.

Evolution and civl rights do not hide what's inside pop culture. Just new paint on the whitewashed tombs.

Of course we have to be minimized, isn't that where Jesus meets His followers?

Jesus, Peter and Jude address this greatly. As do John, James and Paul. They saw this all coming. Luke too.


Maranatha


(I'm off for the day. If I can free up some time later, I'll see what you think.)

 

[KCKID]

Remember that evil will not prevail against the Church. And it has been trying for two-thousand years. You'll hear evolution bantered about, you'll hear civil rights screamed about (actually both screamed about) and you'll eventually see the Christian just marginalized or worse.

So what?



That's right. BUT, Angel4Truth, we are called to be ready to answer these evil people. Jesus didn't face denoms and run away. He didn't walk with Satan and Jesus didn't hold His ears shut. And jesus was being questioned as to His very rights to say Who He was.

Value every minute interacting with our adversaries as a proof, a validation, that incarnate evil is as real as the mathematics that prove our very existence. Even if your adversary presents that they are just poor downtrodden innocents just trying to make it through life, TEST the spirits and see what you are dealing with. This is not a game on the reality side of our computer screens. Whu have seen the cunning nature of the enemies of the Church. They come in two shades, pure opposition and infiltration. The Satanic and his wolves in sheeps clothing. We were taught by Christ Jesus and the Disciples writing the New Testament text, that this is what we are up against. It's the reason the New Testament was penned in the first place. Evil people distorting Christian truth.

Don't let them balk you out of this issue. Evolution is a house of cards being run by the card company. They're not going to let it fall because they have their biggest stake in it. Evolution is not the big monster and is being challenged over and over again and is giving way to reality. And you have to see the fascination that evolutionists target Christian number one. The math just doesn't add up. Let em rant. Isn't it fascinating that you hear that private schools will doom a person, but so many successful college grads come FROM private schools and the drop out rate of secular schools is astronomical. Barack Obama, another leftist propaganda myth, went to private schools. Mr. and Mrs Obama send their children to priavte schools. For education ans safety reasons. Again, let the math guide you. "The World" is failing people and isn't that to be expected? You have hedonism replacing morality and "anything goes" replacing soundness. That math adds up to violence and vice. Well, what do you know? Our public school system. Oops, I mean our failing public school systems.

Rememberr, the basis for dealing with demons for Jesus, was that they were engaged in a lie. They were living in and effecting a host. People wanted to be rid of them, but somehow, they condition in which they received them made it very difficult to be rid of the evil.

Sound familiar? Even if taken as a metaphor (which it is not), the comparison to the western ideals of society are spotlighted. There is a reason for the evil that men do. Evolution and modernity haven't saved us from our nature. Materialism is a millstone. Guess where its hanging?

Don't let this interaction with our opposition bluff you away.

The demons that Jesus encountered AND the Disciples encountered, did not enjoy the truth staring them in the face of their host.

Evolution and civl rights do not hide what's inside pop culture. Just new paint on the whitewashed tombs.

Of course we have to be minimized, isn't that where Jesus meets His followers?

Jesus, Peter and Jude address this greatly. As do John, James and Paul. They saw this all coming. Luke too.


Maranatha


(I'm off for the day. If I can free up some time later, I'll see what you think.)

And now, the award for the best act in a fictitious Christian drama. The winner IS . . .Polycarp_fan! Yaaaaayyy!

 

[Freodin]

...

Christians? The Church? The evil that opposes both?

Again I can only use my most beloved exasperated sigh: Americans!

Perhaps you should just take a closer look at your school system, and compare it with some of the successful systems in the world (and no, I will not advertise the german system, though it is pretty good. Take a look at Finland, for example.)

They perhaps you would recognize a little bit of the truth, instead of reducing the problems to "evolution" and "anti-christian morals".


But knowing your kind of Americans, I doubt you will.

 

[LJSGM]

And on the other hand you have decadent sodomy celebrated by people that claim not to be Christian and those that do.

European chickens coming home to roost.

Yes, I'm more concerned about what Christians are doing then what un-believers do at this point. The christian church has come under a great deception and is preaching a different gospel.

I am concerned with Christians preaching the law to try and make people righteous, which is self-righteousness, and is no righteousness at all. It is a gospel without Christ and the transformation that comes with belief because of His love and grace.

I am concerned with those that call themselves christian and walk around with hatred and murder in their hearts in God's name, blaspheming it. That is the beast that you should be worried about.

Many christians are walking around today with fear, isolating themselves from the rest of the world afraid that they will sin or their loved ones will fall into sin. This is a sign of great weakness and a lack of power of the holy spirit in christianity today. It is "a form of Godliness but denying it's power."

 

[Mling]

I have said this repeatedly, but it bears further repetition. Jesus told his followers that if they encountered people who wouldn't accept them, they should just keep on walking. Knock the dust from their heels and all that.

It's not clear whether the goal was to protect the apostles, or the people who disagreed with them. It works either way, though.

 

[mpok1519]

Remember that evil will not prevail against the Church. And it has been trying for two-thousand years.

And in that two thousand years, the church has actually held the hand of the devil to perpetuate that evil you speak of. Spanish inquisiton anyone? Genocide of native americans by God's will to convert the savages, remember?


The more the right wing fundamentalist party harps about demons, jesus and satan, the more society will not liten to them; if one is more concerned with demons and hell moreso than rationality, logic and tolerance, eventually those voices will be drowned out by their own pretentious undoing.

 

[mpok1519]

If folks don't want public schools informing children of the truth, then parents should just keep their kids in bible school for their entire lives and thus securing a future of less than $20K a year....

In this world, you have two choices; excell, and succeed; or deny truth, and fail.

Its your childrens' futures we're talking about. I'm sure no one wants to compromise a child's future due to some uncalled for homophobia.

 

[ragarth]

Remember that evil will not prevail against the Church. And it has been trying for two-thousand years.
....
Jesus, Peter and Jude address this greatly. As do John, James and Paul. They saw this all coming. Luke too.

I started a new thread on this forum based on my argument to this, the challenge is significant enough to derail the thread so I moved it out of here.

 

[Morcova]

Why do you believe that your rights need to extend into my church or be forced on my kids? Thats not equal.

We understand what will happen ultimately and we arent going to allow it.

Where did he mention churches?

 

[cwolf20]

Depends. Do you want to be on friendly terms with your fellow human? Or be on the type of terms that involve finger pointing and berating.

If nothing else, keep in mind that one of the reasons why "people of means" got miffed with Jesus was because he "dared" to walk among people "they" wouldn't associate with.

 

[Pliny the Elder]

Depends. Do you want to be on friendly terms with your fellow human? Or be on the type of terms that involve finger pointing and berating.

If nothing else, keep in mind that one of the reasons why "people of means" got miffed with Jesus was because he "dared" to walk among people "they" wouldn't associate with.

Very good point.

 

[Beanieboy]

Certainly Gays themselves are demanding that Christians leave them alone. So much tension, anger and argument whenever a Christian has to engage a homosexual/Gay Activist, should a Christian even be doing it in the first place?

For a nonChristian homosexual, I think that the biggest problem I have is that I feel like some people don't talk to me, but at me. It is a one sided conversation, and if they are not listening, then it benefits neither of us. So, in that case, no, you are wasting your breath.

If one simply disagrees, but has a debate, listens to the other, contemplates, reflects upon it, then the gay person will act in kind. You may still come away with different opinions, but at least you can express your point of view, and learn from the other.

I also think another biggie for me is that there are a lot of things about me. I am extremely Spiritual. I was given a weird sense of humor. I have the ability to see a different side, or to think outside the box. I don't like being reduced to "beanieboy, the homosexual", anymore than I want to be reduced to "beanieboy, the man/the white guy/the ex Pat/The American/"etc.
However, I feel that some can only see me as that, and when they tell me that homosexuality is a sin, and only see me as gay, they only see me as a sin and a sinner.

I'm far more complicated than that.

 

[KCKID]

. . .and when they tell me that homosexuality is a sin, and only see me as gay, they only see me as a sin and a sinner.

I'm far more complicated than that.

Of course you are. Furthermore, you can rightly hold your head high for being who you are. You're not particularly extraordinary or odd and certainly NOT an abomination merely because you happen to be homosexual. So WHAT, for crying out loud? The behavior of some posters, however, IS bordering on the abominable and in NO WAY represents Jesus Christ the way I read the scriptures. These people are what I term as 'fear-driven Christians' who are almost afraid to put one foot in front of the other without first consulting the Bible to see if it's okay to 'walk'.

Though SO fearful that they might offend God and be subjected to His wrath they also live in this exclusive world of self-righteousness and make-believe and, as a result, make an absolute mockery of the very Being they claim to speak for. These people are sinners with a capital 'S' but they don't seem to know it. Sinners appear to be anyone but them. Homosexuals are the favorite target of this sanctimonious bunch. One 'Christian' poster on this board even gets excited at the prospect of 'sinners' (who so happen to be anyone but her/him) being killed, for heaven's sake!

I'm not 'gay', I consider myself a Christian, but I'll be d....d if I'll allow the likes of PC_F and a few others on this forum to defile the honor of people such as yourself without my putting up a fight. I'm not 'defending' you as such - not that you would want me to - but more expressing my revulsion at proclaimed Christians publicly demeaning fellow human beings on a Christian forum under the guise of 'speaking for Jesus'.

Just as PC_F's catchcry states ...I'm not going away either.

 

[max1120]

Cosider this, hebrew,especially ancient hebrew is a very inprecise language. Most of the old testament was written in ancient hebrew. The use of the modern english word "abomenation" is a poor translation of the hebrew text. A better more direct interpretation is "ritual impurity" The same word is used when discussing the eating of shell fish as is used when discussing homosexuality. Did God consider eating shell fish and homosexual sex the same? So when homosexuals are referred to in the bible as an "abomenation" the text is being distorted to mean something other than what was intended by the author. Who is the author of the text? Now thats an even better question and we do not know its answer. There are theories and each of these theories has supporters and opponets and each of these have "proofs" that they offer as evidence of the correctness of their positions. So we really do not know who authored these books so a consensus on what they say is difficult to achieve. Thus condeming homosexuals is based upon theories and assumptions about translations and authorship of the relavent text.

 

[Beanieboy]

Cosider this, hebrew,especially ancient hebrew is a very inprecise language. Most of the old testament was written in ancient hebrew. The use of the modern english word "abomenation" is a poor translation of the hebrew text. A better more direct interpretation is "ritual impurity" The same word is used when discussing the eating of shell fish as is used when discussing homosexuality. Did God consider eating shell fish and homosexual sex the same? So when homosexuals are referred to in the bible as an "abomenation" the text is being distorted to mean something other than what was intended by the author. Who is the author of the text? Now thats an even better question and we do not know its answer. There are theories and each of these theories has supporters and opponets and each of these have "proofs" that they offer as evidence of the correctness of their positions. So we really do not know who authored these books so a consensus on what they say is difficult to achieve. Thus condeming homosexuals is based upon theories and assumptions about translations and authorship of the relavent text.

Right. Furthermore, we considered homosexuality a mental illness until 1973, when it was found not to fit the criteria. We no longer think of it as a mental illness, nor something that needs to be "cured." Prior to the late 1800s, the word didn't exist, because people weren't thought to be homosexual, but rather, simply heterosexuals who had homosexual acts (like someone having a threeway or masturbating.)

So, seeing that we really didn't even acknowledge its existence, the word was not coined until a little over a hundred years ago, and our understanding of homosexuality has changed radically in the last 50 years alone, the bible doesn't speak clearly about it all, if it does speak of it at all, as we understand it today.

It amazes me of the number of people that, even when reading Ezekial, will then continue to believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality specificially (when they wanted to rape the visitors, not invite them to an orgy), ignoring all the sins cited , quote Romans, that is clearly talking about Idol worship and sexual temple rites, etc.

People believe what they want to believe.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Cosider this, hebrew,especially ancient hebrew is a very inprecise language. Most of the old testament was written in ancient hebrew. The use of the modern english word "abomenation" is a poor translation of the hebrew text. A better more direct interpretation is "ritual impurity" The same word is used when discussing the eating of shell fish as is used when discussing homosexuality. Did God consider eating shell fish and homosexual sex the same? So when homosexuals are referred to in the bible as an "abomenation" the text is being distorted to mean something other than what was intended by the author. Who is the author of the text? Now thats an even better question and we do not know its answer. There are theories and each of these theories has supporters and opponets and each of these have "proofs" that they offer as evidence of the correctness of their positions. So we really do not know who authored these books so a consensus on what they say is difficult to achieve. Thus condeming homosexuals is based upon theories and assumptions about translations and authorship of the relavent text.

"Detestable practices."

 

[max1120]

Polycarp Fan: What do you mean "detestable practices"?

Max

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Of course you are. Furthermore, you can rightly hold your head high for being who you are. You're not particularly extraordinary or odd and certainly NOT an abomination merely because you happen to be homosexual. So WHAT, for crying out loud? The behavior of some posters, however, IS bordering on the abominable and in NO WAY represents Jesus Christ the way I read the scriptures.

" . . . the way I read the scriptures." - KCKID

Therein lies the issue.

These people are what I term as 'fear-driven Christians' who are almost afraid to put one foot in front of the other without first consulting the Bible to see if it's okay to 'walk'.

Your "opinion" once again. Science is also the friend of the Bible-affirming Christian.

Though SO fearful that they might offend God and be subjected to His wrath they also live in this exclusive world of self-righteousness and make-believe and, as a result, make an absolute mockery of the very Being they claim to speak for.

Preaching a different Gospel is mockery.

These people are sinners with a capital 'S' but they don't seem to know it. Sinners appear to be anyone but them.

How judgmetal of you KCKID. yet the evidence does not support your opinion.

Homosexuals are the favorite target of this sanctimonious bunch. One 'Christian' poster on this board even gets excited at the prospect of 'sinners' (who so happen to be anyone but her/him) being killed, for heaven's sake!

That ALSO violates the scriptures the same as celebrating gay culture does.

I'm not 'gay', I consider myself a Christian, but I'll be d....d if I'll allow the likes of PC_F and a few others on this forum to defile the honor of people such as yourself without my putting up a fight.

Yet you use nothing more than your personal opinions. Scripture of course, is not on your side so you have to go the indy route.

I'm not 'defending' you as such - not that you would want me to - but more expressing my revulsion at proclaimed Christians publicly demeaning fellow human beings on a Christian forum under the guise of 'speaking for Jesus'.

Let Jesus speak for himself. Gay Culture is just as wrong.

Just as PC_F's catchcry states ...I'm not going away either.

And if these progressive mods don't ban me for my stance on Apostolic truth, you'll not be rid of me anytime soon.

How about a theological based debate, you and I?