Modalism/Oneness is wrong.

[Messiahist]

Part 1.

John 8:42 Yehoshua said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me

Yehoshua said he comes from God. The flesh cannot be speaking for the flesh was created. So Yehoshua’s spiritual being came from God. Yehoshua did not send himself, he did not come on his own, but before he was on earth, God sent him. Yehoshua was sent by God into the world, so Yehoshua is before the world with God.

John 10:36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, "I am God's Son'?

The Father sent Yehoshua into the world. How can the Father send his son into the world if he was from only the world? It is clear Yehoshua was in heaven with the Father as his own individual. The Father sent his Son to the world to lead us to righteousness and to die for us, and many other reasons.

John 10:29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand.

The Father gives to his Son.

John 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.

Yehoshua says again the Father sent him. Yehoshua came from the Father, the Father sent him to earth. Yehoshua says he lives because of the Father.

1st Thess 1:9-10 For the people of those regions report about us what kind of welcome we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Yehoshua, who rescues us from the wrath that is coming.

The living true God raised up Yehoshua from the dead. Yehoshua is the son of God, still in the heaven.

Jude1:1 Jude, a servant of Yehoshua The Messiah and brother of James, To those who are called, who are beloved in God the Father and kept safe for Yehoshua the Messiah:

They called are beloved in God the Father, also they are kept safe for Yehoshua. We can clearly see two individuals here.

John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself

For the Father gave him to have life in him-self. An eternal being, meaning with out beginning and without end, cannot be given life in him-self, he always has had life in him-self.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 2.

Rev 1:5-6 and from Yehoshua Messiah, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him (Messiah) who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

It says Messiah made us priest to serve his God and Father. Yehoshua cannot be God, or the Father if we serve his God and Father.

Rev 2:28 even as I (Yehoshua) also received authority from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star.

Yehoshua cannot be the Father. Keep in mind he is saying all this after his resurrection and glorification, in heaven.

Rev 3:5 If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels

Yehoshua has a Father who is above him, his Father who is our God.

Rev 3:21 To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

How many times in his new body must he make it clear he is not the Father?

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion! And with him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

The Father of the Lamb.

Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Yehoshua.

Saints keep God’s commands and the faith of Yehoshua. God and Yehoshua are not the same.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 3.

Matt 24:36 "But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

In the above scripture, Messiah declares that only the father knows the day or hour. Trinitarian’s have difficulty explaining this particular verse, since this verse would propose that the other two persons within the trinity wouldn't know the day or hour. What this infers is that one part of God has more knowledge than the other two parts. Since the trinity teaches that the three persons within the Godhead are equal in knowledge, their doctrine is shattered just by this verse alone.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

God made the Law, he made is son born under the Law. Made his son born of a woman. Messiah was God’s son before he was born of a woman. God sent his Son to be born of a woman.

1st Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

The Son in the future will be Subject to God our Father.

1st Cor 8:5-6 Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth - as in fact there are many gods and many lords - 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one lord, Yehoshua the Messiah, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

In the above passage, Paul is not saying that there is one God, the father, son and holy spirit. Rather, he is saying that there is only one God (the father) period; and we exist because of him. Paul also states, that there is only one master (Yehoshua), and through him we exist. All things are done through Yehoshua.

When examining this passage in Greek, we will notice that Kurios is defined as master, (translated lord in this passage). For centuries, the word lord and master were used interchangeably. Within the bible we should notice that Sarah called Avraham lord. In fact, up to the 1930’s, wives still called their husband’s master. However, this should not be confused with LORD (in the Tanach), because LORD (in uppercase) refers to YHVH (the true God), and lord (in lowercase) means adon (in Hebrew) and kurios (in Greek). Hence, Paul understood that Yehoshua is not God, but rather he is master.

Luke 4:34 "Let us alone! What have you to do with us, Yehoshua of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God."

Yehoshua isn't God, but rather he is the holy one of God. Yehoshua is our master, not our God. Just as Moses was the Jew’s master. The Jews stated that they would do anything that Yeshua asked, even kill those that disobeyed him. Yeshua 1:16-18 They answered Yeshua: "All that you have commanded us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go. 17 Just as we obeyed Moshe in all things, so we will obey you. Only may the Lord your God be with you, as he was with Moshe! 18 Whoever rebels against your orders and disobeys your words, whatever you command, shall be put to death. Only be strong and courageous.”

 

[Messiahist]

Part 4.

Psalms 16:8 I keep the Lord always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my soul rejoices; my body also rests secure. 10 For you do not give me up to Sheol, or let your faithful one (Holy one, Godly one) see the Pit. 11 You show me the path of life. In your presence there is fullness of joy; in your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

The above scripture is about Yehoshua, which will become apparent to us in Acts 2 (below). In verse 8 (above), we will recognize that Yehoshua set God before him, and that Yehoshua is at God's right hand. In other words, Yehoshua has the power of God (right hand and the power of God are interchangeable terms). Since verse 9, mentions his flesh, we can be assured that this scripture is talking about the future Yehoshua. In verse 10, Messiah says to God, “you will not leave my soul in shoel (hell), and you will not suffer your Holy one to see corruption.” Note: Messiah is the holy one of God. The above scripture, is referring to Messiah's resurrection, as will be established in Acts 2 (below).

Acts 2:25 For David says concerning him, "I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken; 26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; moreover my flesh will live in hope. 27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy one experience corruption.

Clearly the Messiah is the holy one of God. Likewise, he is our master and David’s master. So, God made Messiah our master and Messiah.

Matt 27:43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he wants to; for he said, "I am God's Son.'"

The Jews understood Yehoshua as saying he was God’s Son. Not that he was God.

Matt 27:54 Now when the centurion and those with him, who were keeping watch over Yehoshua, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were terrified and said, "Truly this man was God's Son!"

After they seen the earthquake and what took place, they then became believers, and said Truly this man was God’s Son. The Jews understood him to be God's son not to be God.

Matt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased."

David is also called the beloved. The father from heaven said this is my Son. If the Son was not his own individual then the Father had the case of M.P.D.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the good news of Yehoshua the Messiah, the Son of God.

How can we deny who he is?

Mark 5:7 and he shouted at the top of his voice, "What have you to do with me, Yehoshua, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me."

The fallen angels know who he is. It is a sad thing when the fallen angels know more of who Yehoshua is than the so-called followers of Yehoshua.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 5.

Mark 3:10 for he had cured many, so that all who had diseases pressed upon him to touch him. 11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and shouted, "You are the Son of God!" 12 But he sternly ordered them not to make him known.

Yehoshua would sternly order the demons to not make him known. Any demon that saw him said you are the Son of God. Why did not one say, you are the Father? If they were lying why did Yehoshua rebuke them to not make him known?

Luke 1:31-32 And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Yehoshua. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and YHVH God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David.

YHVH will give his Son the throne of his ancestor David. We can see for sure that the Son will always be his own person, but what we should also see by now is he has always been his own person.

Matt 20:23 He said to them, "You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left, this is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."

When Yehoshua was asked to put the sons of thurder in a high place in heaven, he said this is not mine to give. We understand anything Yehoshua gives he gets the power from his God.

Matt 26:53 Do you think that I cannot pray to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Yehoshua said he could pray to his father.

Matt 6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

If Yehoshua is our master we ought to obey him. He said to pray to our Father.

Matt 6:9 "Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.

Why would Yehoshua command worship to a different person in the Godhead?

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him

The true worshippers worship the Father. If God was three persons why does the Son direct worship to his Father?

Luke 6:11-12 But they were filled with fury and discussed with one another what they might do to Yehoshua. 12 Now during those days he went out to the mountain to pray; and he spent the night in prayer to God.

Yehoshua spent the night in prayer to God. It does not say he spent the night in prayer to his Father, but rather to his God. Luke wrote this some 40 years after Yehoshua was in heaven. Would he not know he was God? Then why does he tell the story he prayed to God? Would a Trinitarian write the story like this? A Trinitarian would say he prayed to his Father, or explain to us the human side was praying.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 6.

John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in his hands.

If the Father and Son are the same person, then why is the Father placing all things into his Son's hand? If the Son is just the flesh tabernacle for God and has not his own mind, then why did the Father give him all things in the heavens?

John 5:20 The Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing, and he will show him greater works than these, so that you will be astonished. 21 Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. 22 The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Can we see the two individuals yet? If the Father loves the Son, and they are the same person, then God has an ego problem for boasting his love for his flesh. We honor both individuals or we do not honor either, for the Father sent the Son.

2nd Peter 1:17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that voice was conveyed to him by the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, my Beloved, with whom I am well pleased."

The Father from Heaven called to his Son. Two individuals.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 7.

1 John 1:3 we declare to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Yehoshua the Messiah.

If we are of God then we have fellowship with two individuals.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Yehoshua is The Messiah? This is the antiMessiah, the one who denies the Father and the Son

If we deny two individuals we are antiMessiah.

1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; everyone who confesses the Son has the Father also

If we deny the individuality of the Son we do not know the Father. The natural Yisraelites on earth denied the Son as his own person, thus they denied the Father.

1 John 2:24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father.

If we are born of the spirit we will abide in both individuals, knowing them.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.

God sent his Son from heaven to the world to be our savior (as Moshe was the savior of Yisrael from Egypt).

1 John 4:15 God abides in those who confess that Yehoshua is the Son of God, and they abide in God

We must confess that Yehoshua is God’s Son. So if we deny the individuality of the Son we do not believe he is God’s Son. The Son of God was in heaven with God before he came to earth.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 8.

2 John 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from Yehoshua the Messiah, the Father's Son, in truth and love.

John blesses us from two individuals, the Father and the Son. One who he calls God and one who is not God.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who does not abide in the teaching of The Messiah, but goes beyond it, does not have God; whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If we are truly following Yehoshua’s teaching we have two individuals in belief.

John 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do to perform the works of God?" 29 Yehoshua answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

We must believe in the individual whom God sent to us.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." 35 Yehoshua said to them, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

God’s Son comes from Heaven. He was in heaven with the Father.

John 6:38 for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day

Yehoshua himself tells us the Father sent him from heaven. Yehoshua tells us he was in heaven with the Father, and the Father sent him to the world. To do who’s will? He did not come to do his own will, but the will of his Father.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 9.

John 6:40 This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day."

The will of the Father is to see and believe in the Son. Again two individuals.

John 17:2 since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

Yehoshua praying to his Father says, You gave your Son authority over all people. Two individuals needed for this statement to be true.

John 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

The son was in heaven before earth with the Father.

You see, if the Son, the most holies person to ever walk the earth is going to stop being aware of himself, that will be the same as he will stop existing. So, you’re telling me that the most holy person to ever walk the earth is going to stop existing? What kind of sick God would do that? What kind of chance do I have if the most holy person on earth still stop existing? Do you not realize that it is because you are a thinking thing, that you are aware, that that is what makes you a living thing? If you were to die and a die would possess your body, God forbid, and starts murdering people, would that be you? No. And if you were to be possessed, God forbid, and the demon grabs a knife and starts cutting your flesh, would that be you? No. Do you not realize that what makes you you is the ability to have your individuality, to be aware of yourself? If the most holy person to ever walk the earth is going to lose his self awareness, then what garentee do I have that I won’t? Is God so sick to make the Messiah, the most holy person to ever walk the earth, stop being self-aware and thus stop existing? So, you’re telling me God is going to one day say, “Thanks for doing my will, suffering for the people, and guess what? I am going to give you the best gift of all. I am going to make you stop existing. You won’t be aware.” One can only imagine what the Messiah would feel like. Does this sound like God to you? Do you not realize what kind of sick God he would need to be to do that to the best of his creation?

 

[2ducklow]

Part 1.

John 8:42 Yehoshua said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me

Yehoshua said he comes from God. The flesh cannot be speaking for the flesh was created. So Yehoshua’s spiritual being came from God. Yehoshua did not send himself, he did not come on his own, but before he was on earth, God sent him. Yehoshua was sent by God into the world, so Yehoshua is before the world with God.

this doesn't disprove oneness. It appears that you are saying Jesus existed before he was born, which would align with trintarianism not oneness. Oneness teaches that Jesus didin't exist before he was born.

John 10:36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, "I am God's Son'?

The Father sent Yehoshua into the world. How can the Father send his son into the world if he was from only the world? It is clear Yehoshua was in heaven with the Father as his own individual. The Father sent his Son to the world to lead us to righteousness and to die for us, and many other reasons.

I see that you do believe that Jesus existed before he existed. your lliteral interpretation of this verse isn't proof that oneness is wrong. God sends lots of his servants into the world to preach the gospel, it doesn't mean they existed before they existed.

John 10:29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand.

The Father gives to his Son.

John 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.

Yehoshua says again the Father sent him. Yehoshua came from the Father, the Father sent him to earth. Yehoshua says he lives because of the Father.

1st Thess 1:9-10 For the people of those regions report about us what kind of welcome we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Yehoshua, who rescues us from the wrath that is coming.

The living true God raised up Yehoshua from the dead. Yehoshua is the son of God, still in the heaven.

Jesus is the manna that came down from heaven, not literally a loaf of bread descending from heaven, but the manna from heaven in the sense that he is the fullfillment of the word of god that came from heaven. you are reading it literally, and I in a more figurative sense. You haven't proofed by this that he came from heaven. you have only proved that the literal meaning would be that Jesus came from heaven. I say that verses indicating Jesus was created contradict your literal interpretation that Jesus existed b efore he existed. of the above scriptures.

Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:


Jesus is the beginning, the first one, of God's new creation. If Jesus already existed before he existed then he wasn't created he was like morphed.

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go hither and thither, O thou backsliding daughter? for Jehovah hath created a new thing in the earth: a woman shall encompass a man.

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child.

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? shall a nation be brought forth at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

There is a seeming contradiction in these two verses. verse 7 says that the woman was delivered of a man=child before her pain came. Verse 8 says she brought forth her children as soon as zion travailed.

The answer is that YHWH ceated a perfect manchild (Jesus) out of the woman ( Israel ) before zion travailed. zion travailed 70 years after Jesus was born. The other manchild that was bron when the woman travailed, is the perfected church or manchild, or bride of christ (all the same just different analogys) that will come out of the woman (in this case the church.).



Revelation 12:1-5 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was the child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems. And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child. And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

The sun represents the NT. The moom which is a refelction of the sun, is the OT. The NT sheds light on the OT. Man is neuter in Greek and son is masculine in rev. 12.5 which is bad Greek grammar. And the reason is that the man child is made up of males and females. The manchild that is born when the woman travails is a body of believers. They will be the perfected body of belivers, just like Jesus who came out of a different woman (Zion). Plus Isaiah 66.8 says the manchild is her children, not child. so there are two manchilds, one from Israel, and the other from the church. And you got two backslidden women, Israel and the Chruch, both of whom produce there own manchild, which in a sense is one manchild in that the church is the body of christ.

Jude1:1 Jude, a servant of Yehoshua The Messiah and brother of James, To those who are called, who are beloved in God the Father and kept safe for Yehoshua the Messiah:

They called are beloved in God the Father, also they are kept safe for Yehoshua. We can clearly see two individuals here.

John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself

For the Father gave him to have life in him-self. An eternal being, meaning with out beginning and without end, cannot be given life in him-self, he always has had life in him-self.

You are using a bad translation of Jude 1.1. the Greek word is en which always means in.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Jude 1:1 | ioudaV <2455> {JUDE,} ihsou <2424> {OF JESUS} cristou <5547> {CHRIST} douloV <1401> {BONDMAN,} adelfoV <80> {BROTHER} de <1161> {AND} iakwbou <2385> {OF JAMES,} toiV <3588> {TO}en <1722> {THE} qew <2316> {IN GOD} patri <3962> {[THE] FATHER} hgiasmenoiV <37> (5772) {SANCTIFIED} kai <2532> {AND} ihsou <2424> {IN JESUS} cristw <5547> {CHRIST} tethrhmenoiV <5083> (5772) {KEPT} klhtoiV <2822> {CALLED [ONES].}

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

the transaltion of en as the, which I put in red above is wrong. but the translation 'in God' and "in Jesus' is a correct translation of en. En means in it doesn't mean the, or for, or above or anything people make it to believe to fit their doctrine. it means in. Just as In in english always means in, not for or by or upon or any other prep. people might want to change it to. However, not knowing Greek that well, the might be part of tois which preceeds en. in other words tois probably means 'to the'. But they have it arranged so that it appears that en means the which it never does.

Here is amore accurate and more literal translation of Jude 1.1

Jude 1:1 Judas, of Jesus Christ a servant, and brother of James, to those sanctified in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ kept--called,

WE are the kept-called ones in Jesus Christ is the meaning and what it literally says.. The changing of the meaning of preposistions to anything they want it to mean is commonly used by bible translators to insert their doctrine into the bible. AS is the case here. Saying God the Father keeps us safe for Jesus lessens the importance and involvement of Jesus in our lives than what God actually said in his word, which is that we are the kept-called ones in Jesus.

Another example of changing preposisitons to mean anything a translator wants it to mean is "all things were created IN Jesus" they change it to "all things were created BY Jesus. the Greek word EN doesn't mean by or for or of or above, or under or over, it means IN. It is an easy way to change the bible to conform to man made doctrines. And commonly universally used to that effect.

 

[Messiahist]

For the sake of the discussion, let's say you refuted the first part, you still got eight more posts to refute. Good luck to you, cause you'll need it.

 

[2ducklow]

For the sake of the discussion, let's say you refuted the first part, you still got eight more posts to refute. Good luck to you, cause you'll need it.

I don't need luck, just holy Ghost led doctrine.

 

[2ducklow]

Part 2.

Rev 1:5-6 and from Yehoshua Messiah, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him (Messiah) who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

It says Messiah made us priest to serve his God and Father. Yehoshua cannot be God, or the Father if we serve his God and Father.

True Jesus is not the Father. Oneness people beleive Jesus is the Father because God indwells Jesus permantely and that they are one permantently. I disagree with calling him God the Father because of that though

Rev 2:28 even as I (Yehoshua) also received authority from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star.

Yehoshua cannot be the Father. Keep in mind he is saying all this after his resurrection and glorification, in heaven.

Rev 3:5 If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels

Yehoshua has a Father who is above him, his Father who is our God.

Rev 3:21 To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

How many times in his new body must he make it clear he is not the Father?

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion! And with him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

The Father of the Lamb.

Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Yehoshua.

Saints keep God’s commands and the faith of Yehoshua. God and Yehoshua are not the same.

True Jesus is not the Father, and oneness people , as I said, believe Jesus is the Father because God the Father permantently indwells Jesus and Jesus is permantly one with the Father. I disagree with their conclusion that Jesus is the Father because of this however.

 

[2ducklow]

Part 3.

Matt 24:36 "But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

In the above scripture, Messiah declares that only the father knows the day or hour. Trinitarian’s have difficulty explaining this particular verse, since this verse would propose that the other two persons within the trinity wouldn't know the day or hour. What this infers is that one part of God has more knowledge than the other two parts. Since the trinity teaches that the three persons within the Godhead are equal in knowledge, their doctrine is shattered just by this verse alone.

what trinitarians believe does not disprove oneness doctrine.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

God made the Law, he made is son born under the Law. Made his son born of a woman. Messiah was God’s son before he was born of a woman. God sent his Son to be born of a woman.

1st Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

The Son in the future will be Subject to God our Father.

Yea I agree, nothing here disproves oneness

1st Cor 8:5-6 Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth - as in fact there are many gods and many lords - 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one lord, Yehoshua the Messiah, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

In the above passage, Paul is not saying that there is one God, the father, son and holy spirit. Rather, he is saying that there is only one God (the father) period; and we exist because of him. Paul also states, that there is only one master (Yehoshua), and through him we exist. All things are done through Yehoshua.

you can't disprove oneness by disproving trinity.

When examining this passage in Greek, we will notice that Kurios is defined as master, (translated lord in this passage). For centuries, the word lord and master were used interchangeably. Within the bible we should notice that Sarah called Avraham lord. In fact, up to the 1930’s, wives still called their husband’s master. However, this should not be confused with LORD (in the Tanach), because LORD (in uppercase) refers to YHVH (the true God), and lord (in lowercase) means adon (in Hebrew) and kurios (in Greek). Hence, Paul understood that Yehoshua is not God, but rather he is master.

Jesus is not God nor is he the Father. Oneness people , mostly, my chuch excluded, believe Jesus is God because God indwells him and because Jesus is one with the Father. they do not believe Jesus pre existed as the Father. they believe Jesus didnt' exist till he was born.

Luke 4:34 "Let us alone! What have you to do with us, Yehoshua of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God."

Yehoshua isn't God, but rather he is the holy one of God. Yehoshua is our master, not our God. Just as Moses was the Jew’s master. The Jews stated that they would do anything that Yeshua asked, even kill those that disobeyed him. Yeshua 1:16-18 They answered Yeshua: "All that you have commanded us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go. 17 Just as we obeyed Moshe in all things, so we will obey you. Only may the Lord your God be with you, as he was with Moshe! 18 Whoever rebels against your orders and disobeys your words, whatever you command, shall be put to death. Only be strong and courageous.”

Jesus isn't god.

 

[2ducklow]

Part 1.

John 8:42 Yehoshua said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me

Yehoshua said he comes from God. The flesh cannot be speaking for the flesh was created. So Yehoshua’s spiritual being came from God. Yehoshua did not send himself, he did not come on his own, but before he was on earth, God sent him. Yehoshua was sent by God into the world, so Yehoshua is before the world with God.

John 10:36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, "I am God's Son'?

The Father sent Yehoshua into the world. How can the Father send his son into the world if he was from only the world? It is clear Yehoshua was in heaven with the Father as his own individual. The Father sent his Son to the world to lead us to righteousness and to die for us, and many other reasons.

John 10:29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand.

The Father gives to his Son.

John 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.

Yehoshua says again the Father sent him. Yehoshua came from the Father, the Father sent him to earth. Yehoshua says he lives because of the Father.

1st Thess 1:9-10 For the people of those regions report about us what kind of welcome we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Yehoshua, who rescues us from the wrath that is coming.

The living true God raised up Yehoshua from the dead. Yehoshua is the son of God, still in the heaven.

Jude1:1 Jude, a servant of Yehoshua The Messiah and brother of James, To those who are called, who are beloved in God the Father and kept safe for Yehoshua the Messiah:

They called are beloved in God the Father, also they are kept safe for Yehoshua. We can clearly see two individuals here.

John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself

For the Father gave him to have life in him-self. An eternal being, meaning with out beginning and without end, cannot be given life in him-self, he always has had life in him-self.

Jesus is not God the Father. Actually oneness people just call God being in Jesus fully him being God. It is their conclusion of what they believe that is erronious. but I have the new and improved oneness doctrine without the nonsensical parts, which are few, much fewer than any other doctrine.

 

[2ducklow]

Part 9.

John 6:40 This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day."

The will of the Father is to see and believe in the Son. Again two individuals.

John 17:2 since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

Yehoshua praying to his Father says, You gave your Son authority over all people. Two individuals needed for this statement to be true.

John 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

The son was in heaven before earth with the Father.

You see, if the Son, the most holies person to ever walk the earth is going to stop being aware of himself, that will be the same as he will stop existing. So, you’re telling me that the most holy person to ever walk the earth is going to stop existing? What kind of sick God would do that? What kind of chance do I have if the most holy person on earth still stop existing? Do you not realize that it is because you are a thinking thing, that you are aware, that that is what makes you a living thing? If you were to die and a die would possess your body, God forbid, and starts murdering people, would that be you? No. And if you were to be possessed, God forbid, and the demon grabs a knife and starts cutting your flesh, would that be you? No. Do you not realize that what makes you you is the ability to have your individuality, to be aware of yourself? If the most holy person to ever walk the earth is going to lose his self awareness, then what garentee do I have that I won’t? Is God so sick to make the Messiah, the most holy person to ever walk the earth, stop being self-aware and thus stop existing? So, you’re telling me God is going to one day say, “Thanks for doing my will, suffering for the people, and guess what? I am going to give you the best gift of all. I am going to make you stop existing. You won’t be aware.” One can only imagine what the Messiah would feel like. Does this sound like God to you? Do you not realize what kind of sick God he would need to be to do that to the best of his creation?

So your only proof that oneness is wrong is a 9 page proof that Jesus is not the Father. But I say you misunderstand what oneness people mean when they say Jesus is the Father. They do not believe that Jesus preexisted as the Father. they beleive that Jesus is one with the father, and that God the Father permantenly indwells Jesus and conclude from that that Jesus is the Father. I disagree with their conclusion, but agree that Jesus is one with the Fahter and that God the father permantenlty indwells Jesus. The good thing aboutthe oneness doctrine that other doctrines do not have is that it emphasises the oneeness of Jesus with the father, where as unitarianism emphasises the seperation of the two, and trinity just confuses everybody to the point where they don't know up from down.

 

[Kerwin]

So Yehoshua&#8217;s spiritual being came from God.

Do you mean that Jesus had an existence before he was conceived of the Holy Spirit? If so I find that kind of hard to believe being that the word &#8220;conceived&#8221; seems to mean formed. Of course you could have meant that Jesus spirit is truly righteous and thus came from God which sounds reasonable.

What is [FONT=&quot]Modalism/Oneness?[/FONT]

 

[MI6]

Very interesting.

In your opinion, why did Jesus and the Father create this universe?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Hi, some of my friends were leaning to modalism because of an influence.

I can send you a very Bible based essay by a brilliant pastor, called The Blessed Three In One, by Alan Morrison.

Revealing the Trinity from the Bible.

Old questions old answers. But this essay is five years old.

Notably the words Trinity, Modes, demi-god and transubstantiation are not in the Bible.

You can sum up attacks on this Trinitarian teaching by saying there is an attack on the "co-equal", or "co-eternal" or "co-existent" aspects of the Three persons in one being.