Why Presbyterian and Not Pentecostal?

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Hello everyone. As you probably could guess, my name is Troy. As a student of Lee University, I have a history assignment that is due this Wednesday. My assignment is to write a one page letter as if I am a Presbyterian, and is a letter to a pentecostal. It is supposed to be a letter that explains my faith tradition as opposed to their faith tradition. The only thing is, I belong to a pentecostal church (in real life) and do not know very much about Presbyterians. This is where you guys and gals come in. I know that all Presbyterians are Calvinists (though not all Calvinists are Presbyterian), which is why I have chosen this forum in hopes that my Presbyterian family here could help me out.

Why are you Presbyterian and not Pentecostal? I urge you give a wide variety of reasons why this is so, but on each reason please keep the information fairly short. I hope that those who are able help me with this assignment will do so and thus be gracious by blessing me with such help.

If you have any questions, I welcome you to ask me.
Sincerely,
Troy
 

bradfordl

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Might be a difficult assignment since the word 'Presbyterian' refers to a system of church government, and the word "Pentecostal' generally refers to a set of beliefs regarding the extancy of spiritual gifts. The assignment itself points out the ignorance of the person who assigned it as to church history and the meanings of the words.

It is possible to be both Presbyterian and Pentecostal.
 
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I agree that my assignment is a wee bit difficult. Yet when I think of Presbyterians, R.C. Sproul comes time mind. From what I understand, he is a respected leader for Presbyterians. So, though I do realize that the word 'Presbyterian' refers to a system of church government, and the word "Pentecostal' generally refers to a set of beliefs regarding the extancy of spiritual gifts, and while I agree that it is possible to be both Presbyterian and Pentecostal, I think my history teacher (not church history) has something in mind you have missed. Hence, no need to see ignorance in the assigment. For example, take the Assemblies of God as representative of Pentecostals. They are almost always Arminians, and have little reluctancy allowing women to teach, preach or prophesy in the context of a church setting. On the other hand, I do not think this is so for Presbyterians. Correct me if I am wrong, but Presbyterians embrace John Calvin's view of God, and do not allow the women to minister the the extent the Assemblies of God do.

Do you see the distinction I believe my professor has in mind? Anyways, thanks for the help and any forthcoming help from whoever wishes to do so.
 
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bradfordl

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Words have meanings. Perhaps a better title for the assignment would be "A letter from a cessationist to a non-cessationist" or"A letter from a calvinist to an arminian" or "A letter from a christian who adheres to Paul's prohibitions on female leadership and teaching to a christian who rejects them". Seems like too many different topics to address in a single letter.
 
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You are right-- words do have meanings, and they have more than one meaning. Having said that, the meaning of the word "Presbyterian" I have in mind is the denomination. Are you presbyterian, or are you part of a local church gathering that is called _____ Presbyterian Church? If not, then you are of no use in assisting me in my assignment. Thank you for your time though, :wave:
 
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Oh, cool then! Perhaps you could assist me in the assignment. :prayer: Basically, the assignment does not have to be too detailed. In fact, it only has to be one full page in Microsoft Word with 12 in. font and double line spacing. This makes the word count to about 250-- that's it. So, it doesn't have to be exhaustive, long winded, or be a paper that leaves-no-stones-unturned so to speak. Since you are a part of a Presbyterian church of America, why do you choose this type of fellowship as opposed to the nearest popular growing Pentecostal church in your area/region? Since I am not a Presbyterian, I could not say. This is why I ask you [the people of this forum].
 
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There are many reasons why one might be a Presbyterian rather than a Pentecostal. Most common would be that you were brought up in one or the other. Another would be the theology taught in either. Of course since this is a history class you could go into the history of both. Presbyterianism as a denomination started with John Knox, who IIRC was a student of Calvin, in Scotland during the 1500 or 1600's. Pentecostalism as a denomination began with the Azuza Street Revivals in the late 1800's to early 1900's. It came out of Wesleyan Methodism and focused much on the holiness doctrine taught by Wesley. In its early years Pentecostalism was called holy rollers because of the manner in which they worshipped. I would do a Google search on the history of both to get more information.
 
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bradfordl

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Well, I was once a Pentecostal myself, in fact that was my first experience as a christian. My grandmother was Assembly of God before being AoG was cool. :) From way back in the '30's.

The reason I progressed from Pentecostal, then to Nazarene, which is non-charismatic arminian, to finally calvinist, then Presbyterian was this: I found that the teaching and practice in Pentecostalism was consistently inconsistent with scripture. The way the charismatic gifts were practiced never jibed with the Word. Tongues were rarely interpreted, women were speaking in tongues and giving prophecies in Church, which seemed pretty strange that the Holy Spirit would be behind something He had expressly forbidden in His Word - women speaking in Church, etc., etc. Then in the Nazarene Church I found the twisted way they tried to explain away God's sovereignty in man's salvation to make man's ability to decide one way or the other the deciding factor was completely contrary to scripture. A Sunday School class on the book of Ephesians was the clincher. Over and over I heard, "It may sound like this, but what He really means is that.", to the point that it was incredulous.

Prior to that I had begun a more in depth study of the scriptures and Church history. One night I read the book of Romans all the way through, and the next day went to get a haircut at a barber shop I'd never been to. The barber happened to be a Reformed Baptist pastor. He blew me away as he began asking me if I were a christian, then if I understood the implications of the fact that all of existence was about God and that man was just one component of a creation made for the purpose of glorifying that God. As he expounded on the doctrines of election and God's sovereignty, Romans for the first time made cohesive sense. He was a Greek scholar, had in fact translated the NT into english for himself, and I left there with an armful of tracts by Pink, Spurgeon, Luther, and a book by Sproul. I was flabbergasted, and I was afraid. If what he was saying was true, then all that I had been told was false, and the fact that I had already begun to question why what I had been told never seemed to agree with scripture made me even more afraid. I feared I had never really heard the Gospel, but instead had been hearing what pleased my itching ears. I ran from calvinism as hard as I could. I read Finney. I read Compolo. I even went back to a Pentecostal Church. Nothing helped.... it all contradicted God's Word.

They all made it out as though God owed me a 'chance', and that He would be unfair to have either chosen me or rejected me before I was even born and could make some freee decision. But I knew my heart... it is a wicked and unfaithful thing. I also knew that God knows all things, even the end from the beginning, and that He has power over everything. The only way I could ever have 'decided' for anything good was if He'd made me willing and able to do so. I could have no confidence in my own 'choice', so if there is any 'choice' involved, it had to have been His. And the only thing that could differentiate me from my godless neighbor is that He'd 'chosen' to MAKE me know and love Him, and hadn't 'chosen' to do that to my neighbor. It couldn't be that I was wiser or 'better' than that neighbor, because I wasn't.

So I began to study the scriptures more in depth, and what various Churches taught. Read more of Church history. And I was finally amazed to find that the old Presbyterians had been more close to the scriptures than any other I could find. You can imagine my shock, since my Dad, who was a profligate unbeliever, was an elder in a Presbyterian Church of the PCUSA. I had called them 'flatlanders' and apostates. And they were. Then I learned that there were a few small Presbyterian denominations that had departed out from that one long before because of its abandonment of the truth. But I was still not convinced.

So I sat down and came up with a list of ten questions that were very basic to the teachings of scripture, and started calling Churches of every stripe. Baptists, Nazarenes, AoG's, Pentecostal Holiness, Churches of Christ, Independent Bible Churches, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians. Every protestant Church I could find. From the most uptight to the most social to the wildest charismatics. And most couldn't even get past number four, some got as high as seven, but the only one in my area that got all ten questions right was an old PCA pastor, and that's where I finally settled. Ain't perfect, but it is closer to what scripture teaches than any other around here, so I'm stickin' with it. Been in that denomination almost 12 years

So for this presby, the main question I would have for a Pentecostal is, why do you listen to the hooey you're being spoonfed that appeals to your pride and flesh, instead of what the Word of the Living God says?
 
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Bradford: Thank you! You have helped me significantly. I am going to use aspects of your theological journey for my paper. When I am finished, I plan to email you my "letter." I also will inform my teacher of your journey so that he will be aware of it and know that I am not being deceitful nor am I cheating. I might send my "letter" to you before I turn it in to see if you feel there is anything I should include (such as properly citing you as my source or reference).

mlqurgl & Rift: Thank you for your contribution!

P.S.
The due date for the assignment was post-poned to this Friday.
 
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desmalia

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Well, I was once a Pentecostal myself, in fact that was my first experience as a christian. My grandmother was Assembly of God before being AoG was cool. :) From way back in the '30's.

The reason I progressed from Pentecostal, then to Nazarene, which is non-charismatic arminian, to finally calvinist, then Presbyterian was this: I found that the teaching and practice in Pentecostalism was consistently inconsistent with scripture. The way the charismatic gifts were practiced never jibed with the Word. Tongues were rarely interpreted, women were speaking in tongues and giving prophecies in Church, which seemed pretty strange that the Holy Spirit would be behind something He had expressly forbidden in His Word - women speaking in Church, etc., etc. Then in the Nazarene Church I found the twisted way they tried to explain away God's sovereignty in man's salvation to make man's ability to decide one way or the other the deciding factor was completely contrary to scripture. A Sunday School class on the book of Ephesians was the clincher. Over and over I heard, "It may sound like this, but what He really means is that.", to the point that it was incredulous.

Prior to that I had begun a more in depth study of the scriptures and Church history. One night I read the book of Romans all the way through, and the next day went to get a haircut at a barber shop I'd never been to. The barber happened to be a Reformed Baptist pastor. He blew me away as he began asking me if I were a christian, then if I understood the implications of the fact that all of existence was about God and that man was just one component of a creation made for the purpose of glorifying that God. As he expounded on the doctrines of election and God's sovereignty, Romans for the first time made cohesive sense. He was a Greek scholar, had in fact translated the NT into english for himself, and I left there with an armful of tracts by Pink, Spurgeon, Luther, and a book by Sproul. I was flabbergasted, and I was afraid. If what he was saying was true, then all that I had been told was false, and the fact that I had already begun to question why what I had been told never seemed to agree with scripture made me even more afraid. I feared I had never really heard the Gospel, but instead had been hearing what pleased my itching ears. I ran from calvinism as hard as I could. I read Finney. I read Compolo. I even went back to a Pentecostal Church. Nothing helped.... it all contradicted God's Word.

They all made it out as though God owed me a 'chance', and that He would be unfair to have either chosen me or rejected me before I was even born and could make some freee decision. But I knew my heart... it is a wicked and unfaithful thing. I also knew that God knows all things, even the end from the beginning, and that He has power over everything. The only way I could ever have 'decided' for anything good was if He'd made me willing and able to do so. I could have no confidence in my own 'choice', so if there is any 'choice' involved, it had to have been His. And the only thing that could differentiate me from my godless neighbor is that He'd 'chosen' to MAKE me know and love Him, and hadn't 'chosen' to do that to my neighbor. It couldn't be that I was wiser or 'better' than that neighbor, because I wasn't.

So I began to study the scriptures more in depth, and what various Churches taught. Read more of Church history. And I was finally amazed to find that the old Presbyterians had been more close to the scriptures than any other I could find. You can imagine my shock, since my Dad, who was a profligate unbeliever, was an elder in a Presbyterian Church of the PCUSA. I had called them 'flatlanders' and apostates. And they were. Then I learned that there were a few small Presbyterian denominations that had departed out from that one long before because of its abandonment of the truth. But I was still not convinced.

So I sat down and came up with a list of ten questions that were very basic to the teachings of scripture, and started calling Churches of every stripe. Baptists, Nazarenes, AoG's, Pentecostal Holiness, Churches of Christ, Independent Bible Churches, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians. Every protestant Church I could find. From the most uptight to the most social to the wildest charismatics. And most couldn't even get past number four, some got as high as seven, but the only one in my area that got all ten questions right was an old PCA pastor, and that's where I finally settled. Ain't perfect, but it is closer to what scripture teaches than any other around here, so I'm stickin' with it. Been in that denomination almost 12 years

So for this presby, the main question I would have for a Pentecostal is, why do you listen to the hooey you're being spoonfed that appeals to your pride and flesh, instead of what the Word of the Living God says?

Thanks for sharing that, Bradford, what a powerful testimony!
There's a thread called "Free Will" in the Conservative section here that would really benefit from it.

I'm curious... do you still have that list of questions? I'd love to see it.
 
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I grew up Pentecostal and have been turned into a Reformed Baptist. Seems to be a pattern going on here. As I studied Church History and theology it became clear that I was being taught incorrect doctrine too. heh...this is weird that so many of us were once Pentecostal. I even went to a Pentecostal Bible College for a little bit.


God loves calling people out I guess. lol.
 
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Well, I was once a Pentecostal myself, in fact that was my first experience as a christian. My grandmother was Assembly of God before being AoG was cool. :) From way back in the '30's.

The reason I progressed from Pentecostal, then to Nazarene, which is non-charismatic arminian, to finally calvinist, then Presbyterian was this: I found that the teaching and practice in Pentecostalism was consistently inconsistent with scripture. The way the charismatic gifts were practiced never jibed with the Word. Tongues were rarely interpreted, women were speaking in tongues and giving prophecies in Church, which seemed pretty strange that the Holy Spirit would be behind something He had expressly forbidden in His Word - women speaking in Church, etc., etc. Then in the Nazarene Church I found the twisted way they tried to explain away God's sovereignty in man's salvation to make man's ability to decide one way or the other the deciding factor was completely contrary to scripture. A Sunday School class on the book of Ephesians was the clincher. Over and over I heard, "It may sound like this, but what He really means is that.", to the point that it was incredulous.

Prior to that I had begun a more in depth study of the scriptures and Church history. One night I read the book of Romans all the way through, and the next day went to get a haircut at a barber shop I'd never been to. The barber happened to be a Reformed Baptist pastor. He blew me away as he began asking me if I were a christian, then if I understood the implications of the fact that all of existence was about God and that man was just one component of a creation made for the purpose of glorifying that God. As he expounded on the doctrines of election and God's sovereignty, Romans for the first time made cohesive sense. He was a Greek scholar, had in fact translated the NT into english for himself, and I left there with an armful of tracts by Pink, Spurgeon, Luther, and a book by Sproul. I was flabbergasted, and I was afraid. If what he was saying was true, then all that I had been told was false, and the fact that I had already begun to question why what I had been told never seemed to agree with scripture made me even more afraid. I feared I had never really heard the Gospel, but instead had been hearing what pleased my itching ears. I ran from calvinism as hard as I could. I read Finney. I read Compolo. I even went back to a Pentecostal Church. Nothing helped.... it all contradicted God's Word.

They all made it out as though God owed me a 'chance', and that He would be unfair to have either chosen me or rejected me before I was even born and could make some freee decision. But I knew my heart... it is a wicked and unfaithful thing. I also knew that God knows all things, even the end from the beginning, and that He has power over everything. The only way I could ever have 'decided' for anything good was if He'd made me willing and able to do so. I could have no confidence in my own 'choice', so if there is any 'choice' involved, it had to have been His. And the only thing that could differentiate me from my godless neighbor is that He'd 'chosen' to MAKE me know and love Him, and hadn't 'chosen' to do that to my neighbor. It couldn't be that I was wiser or 'better' than that neighbor, because I wasn't.

So I began to study the scriptures more in depth, and what various Churches taught. Read more of Church history. And I was finally amazed to find that the old Presbyterians had been more close to the scriptures than any other I could find. You can imagine my shock, since my Dad, who was a profligate unbeliever, was an elder in a Presbyterian Church of the PCUSA. I had called them 'flatlanders' and apostates. And they were. Then I learned that there were a few small Presbyterian denominations that had departed out from that one long before because of its abandonment of the truth. But I was still not convinced.

So I sat down and came up with a list of ten questions that were very basic to the teachings of scripture, and started calling Churches of every stripe. Baptists, Nazarenes, AoG's, Pentecostal Holiness, Churches of Christ, Independent Bible Churches, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians. Every protestant Church I could find. From the most uptight to the most social to the wildest charismatics. And most couldn't even get past number four, some got as high as seven, but the only one in my area that got all ten questions right was an old PCA pastor, and that's where I finally settled. Ain't perfect, but it is closer to what scripture teaches than any other around here, so I'm stickin' with it. Been in that denomination almost 12 years

So for this presby, the main question I would have for a Pentecostal is, why do you listen to the hooey you're being spoonfed that appeals to your pride and flesh, instead of what the Word of the Living God says?


Wow. You are deadset against Pentecostals. The funny (or not so funny) thing is, NONE of what you mentioned here about Pentecostals I have experienced in Pentecostal churches. I have been to Pentecostal churches in Southern, Northern, and Western Ontario (where I have lived). I also follow closely to the message being taught, and read each quoted scripture in its proper context to see if it matches up with what is being taught.
No pastor has been perfect (and we can't expect them to be; they're human just like us).

Also, unless I misread what you said about "free choice", I don't agree with you there either. HOW and WHY would GOD HIMSELF DECIDE who goes to heaven and who gets cast into hell? Saying that God only decides and that we have no free will or choice whether we follow God or not says that God is unfair and cruel. That would be like a firefighter deciding who to save from a burning building based solely on race (skin color).

Yes, I know this is an old post, but you stirred something up in me, and I want the truth on this forum for others who stumble upon this post.
 
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Jerryj

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Well, I was once a Pentecostal myself, in fact that was my first experience as a christian. My grandmother was Assembly of God before being AoG was cool. :) From way back in the '30's.

The reason I progressed from Pentecostal, then to Nazarene, which is non-charismatic arminian, to finally calvinist, then Presbyterian was this: I found that the teaching and practice in Pentecostalism was consistently inconsistent with scripture. The way the charismatic gifts were practiced never jibed with the Word. Tongues were rarely interpreted, women were speaking in tongues and giving prophecies in Church, which seemed pretty strange that the Holy Spirit would be behind something He had expressly forbidden in His Word - women speaking in Church, etc., etc. Then in the Nazarene Church I found the twisted way they tried to explain away God's sovereignty in man's salvation to make man's ability to decide one way or the other the deciding factor was completely contrary to scripture. A Sunday School class on the book of Ephesians was the clincher. Over and over I heard, "It may sound like this, but what He really means is that.", to the point that it was incredulous.

Prior to that I had begun a more in depth study of the scriptures and Church history. One night I read the book of Romans all the way through, and the next day went to get a haircut at a barber shop I'd never been to. The barber happened to be a Reformed Baptist pastor. He blew me away as he began asking me if I were a christian, then if I understood the implications of the fact that all of existence was about God and that man was just one component of a creation made for the purpose of glorifying that God. As he expounded on the doctrines of election and God's sovereignty, Romans for the first time made cohesive sense. He was a Greek scholar, had in fact translated the NT into english for himself, and I left there with an armful of tracts by Pink, Spurgeon, Luther, and a book by Sproul. I was flabbergasted, and I was afraid. If what he was saying was true, then all that I had been told was false, and the fact that I had already begun to question why what I had been told never seemed to agree with scripture made me even more afraid. I feared I had never really heard the Gospel, but instead had been hearing what pleased my itching ears. I ran from calvinism as hard as I could. I read Finney. I read Compolo. I even went back to a Pentecostal Church. Nothing helped.... it all contradicted God's Word.

They all made it out as though God owed me a 'chance', and that He would be unfair to have either chosen me or rejected me before I was even born and could make some freee decision. But I knew my heart... it is a wicked and unfaithful thing. I also knew that God knows all things, even the end from the beginning, and that He has power over everything. The only way I could ever have 'decided' for anything good was if He'd made me willing and able to do so. I could have no confidence in my own 'choice', so if there is any 'choice' involved, it had to have been His. And the only thing that could differentiate me from my godless neighbor is that He'd 'chosen' to MAKE me know and love Him, and hadn't 'chosen' to do that to my neighbor. It couldn't be that I was wiser or 'better' than that neighbor, because I wasn't.

So I began to study the scriptures more in depth, and what various Churches taught. Read more of Church history. And I was finally amazed to find that the old Presbyterians had been more close to the scriptures than any other I could find. You can imagine my shock, since my Dad, who was a profligate unbeliever, was an elder in a Presbyterian Church of the PCUSA. I had called them 'flatlanders' and apostates. And they were. Then I learned that there were a few small Presbyterian denominations that had departed out from that one long before because of its abandonment of the truth. But I was still not convinced.

So I sat down and came up with a list of ten questions that were very basic to the teachings of scripture, and started calling Churches of every stripe. Baptists, Nazarenes, AoG's, Pentecostal Holiness, Churches of Christ, Independent Bible Churches, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians. Every protestant Church I could find. From the most uptight to the most social to the wildest charismatics. And most couldn't even get past number four, some got as high as seven, but the only one in my area that got all ten questions right was an old PCA pastor, and that's where I finally settled. Ain't perfect, but it is closer to what scripture teaches than any other around here, so I'm stickin' with it. Been in that denomination almost 12 years

So for this presby, the main question I would have for a Pentecostal is, why do you listen to the hooey you're being spoonfed that appeals to your pride and flesh, instead of what the Word of the Living God says?

Hi, you mentioned that women should not be allowed to use the gifts of the holy spirit. I personally believe that the passages in the New Testament written by Paul were to the Churches in Asia Minor and Europe. The reason that it says that women should not be allowed to talk in church is because of the fact that back in those days women were not respectful to the church an each other. Nowadays many women in my Church worship in the Holy Spirit using the gifts that God has given to them. My mother speaks in tongues to praise God.

Also you stated that the tongues had to be interpreted. The main reason it states this is because people in the Church started showing importance to other gifts of the Holy Spirit. When speaking in tongues, it is a private conversation between you and God. People should not representing a whole Church when speaking in tongues, because if a new person came in they would not understand.

I disagree with what you say. May these words have touched you. Hope you find the truth.
 
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sdowney717

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Hi, you mentioned that women should not be allowed to use the gifts of the holy spirit. I personally believe that the passages in the New Testament written by Paul were to the Churches in Asia Minor and Europe. The reason that it says that women should not be allowed to talk in church is because of the fact that back in those days women were not respectful to the church an each other. Nowadays many women in my Church worship in the Holy Spirit using the gifts that God has given to them. My mother speaks in tongues to praise God.

Also you stated that the tongues had to be interpreted. The main reason it states this is because people in the Church started showing importance to other gifts of the Holy Spirit. When speaking in tongues, it is a private conversation between you and God. People should not representing a whole Church when speaking in tongues, because if a new person came in they would not understand.

I disagree with what you say. May these words have touched you. Hope you find the truth.

Very old thread.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;


verse 27, If there is no interpreter, let them keep silent in church and not speak in tongues. This rule is violated frequently or all the time, it certainly was in all the spirit filled churches I have attended in my past.

'Speak to himself and to God', everyone could certainly hear everyone else and they were loud.
Typically there is speaking in tongues, by almost everyone, when scripture says only at most 2 or 3 people, each in turn so not speaking over everyone else in a cacophony of tongues, so another rule violation, then there may be silence and later on a prophecy, which I suppose that church group would say is the interpreter.

But the scripture assumes in the Corinthian church the tongue speakers would know someone has the gift to interpret the tongue, which is one of the gifts. And if that person was not there, they were to keep silent in church, so not speaking loudly in tongues, but they did not follow that rule either..

1 Corinthians 14: 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
 
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One of the problems is the variety of Presbyterians and the variety of Pentecostals. Even among the presbyterians who come to semper reformanda there are conservative Presbyterians from the OPC and PCA, and at least one liberal Presbyterian.

I am actually an outsider to both groups, but identify very closely with conservative Presbyterianism. In fact I would consider going to the PCA or OPC. I think they would allow me to be a member, but not teach or be an elder due to my views on Baptism.

One of the great differences I see between conservative Presbyterianism and Pentecostals is the issue of the nature and authority of the scriptures. If the gift of Prophecy, and maybe even Apostleship is with the current Church, it would seem to me to present issues. I suspect in the PCA or OPC that would be a pretty big issue.

A question in my mind is how the PCA or OPC would handle John Piper, or Wayne Grudem, or people like that?
 
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