World's oldest temple found in Turkey

[Athrond]

Your humor aside --- I would conjecture that an attempt to do a search of a person who just materialized an apple into the palm of your hand ex nihilo would not be the wisest of choices.

Hehe good point , I would maybe drop some of the more "intrusive" probes.

However, who's to say the way of materializing things this way can't be studied scientifically?

Imagine you just created this apple ex nihilo, and I stand there gaping:

AV1611VET: "Ta da!"

Athrond: "wuh? WOW that's amazing!!! Oh golly!!!!111!!!!oneone"

Athrond: "how did you do that?!!!!!!!!"

AV16VET: "Av1611VET did it."

Athrond: "yeah yeah I know! It's awesome! But How did you DO that?"

AV1611VET: "AV1611VET did it.And,btw it's a good apple."

Athrond: "yeah looks good, but....."

And so on. Point: "AV1611VET did it" isn't an explanation on how the apple was materialized, see?

Athrond - singature, not more roleplay

 

[Wiccan_Child]

OOPS --- my bad --- I should have said, "many infallible proofs" ------ but your point still applies.

Yay.

It was supported back then, but the support, and the supporters, are now gone, thus faith takes over. Did you see the point I made in another thread that science today can't prove the Spanish Armada was defeated in 1588, let along prove the armada itself ever existed?

That's why I talked about evidence, not proof. No one can prove anything exists/existed, but we can evidence it. That's just an inherent epistemological limitation.

In any case, that doesn't excuse the faithful (I use that as a pejorative, not a compliment): it doesn't matter why the evidence doesn't exist any more, merely that it doesn't.
Another poster on CF likes to claim that the Roman sacking of Jerusalem's Temple is the reason no evidence exists for the existence of Jesus in the first century CE. While that may indeed be the reason for such an absence, the fact remains that we don't know if such evidence ever existed in the first place: The sacking occured regardless.

Basically, it doesn't matter why there's an absence of evidence, because the only important thing at the moment is just that: there's an abscence of evidence.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Hehe good point , I would maybe drop some of the more "intrusive" probes.

However, who's to say the way of materializing things this way can't be studied scientifically?

Imagine you just created this apple ex nihilo, and I stand there gaping:

AV1611VET: "Ta da!"

Athrond: "wuh? WOW that's amazing!!! Oh golly!!!!111!!!!oneone"

Athrond: "how did you do that?!!!!!!!!"

AV16VET: "Av1611VET did it."

Athrond: "yeah yeah I know! It's awesome! But How did you DO that?"

AV1611VET: "AV1611VET did it.And,btw it's a good apple."

Athrond: "yeah looks good, but....."

And so on. Point: "AV1611VET did it" isn't an explanation on how the apple was materialized, see?

Athrond - singature, not more roleplay

Two things. First, "AV1611VET did it" is an explanation. It's just not a very good one (it doesn't make predictions, it can't be falsified or disproven, etc), but it's an explanation nonetheless.

Second, the whole point of The Apple Challenge™ is to point out that there is no evidence whatsoever that distinguishes a mundane apple from one that has been created ex nihilo. The Challenge is to show anti-Creationists that it is futile to ask for evidence of Creation ex nihilo, since there can never be any such evidence.

The point of the Challenge is to highlight the absurdity of asking for evidence of creation ex nihilo.

 

[Athrond]

Two things. First, "AV1611VET did it" is an explanation. It's just not a very good one (it doesn't make predictions, it can't be falsified or disproven, etc), but it's an explanation nonetheless.

Second, the whole point of The Apple Challenge™ is to point out that there is no evidence whatsoever that distinguishes a mundane apple from one that has been created ex nihilo. The Challenge is to show anti-Creationists that it is futile to ask for evidence of Creation ex nihilo, since there can never be any such evidence.

The point of the Challenge is to highlight the absurdity of asking for evidence of creation ex nihilo.

And my point was: there may be evidence. after all there is no 8th day in wich god erased all the evidence of his creation prosesses.

and in AV's chalenge there is even a posisbility to study the creator directly. Preferably by probing

but hey, don't let my pragmatism disrupt your fancy thought experiments


Athrond

 

[dad]

Let's ask the pixies -- they were there; they'd know.

Yes, "Pixies, which one of you imaginary beings sprinkled stardust onto the too small to see with the naked eye creator speck o soup? And which one waved the wand over the crack that spawned plants and animals, in some rock, or vent? And, yes, Poe's Pixies, how many of you were there at the time of the long lifespans recorded in either the bible, or Sumer? How many of you were there at the building of the great pyramid, to observe the laws of physics, if there was any at the time? How many were there when God laid the foundations of the earth, speak, if you know? And if you pixies want to fly around, and say there are no everlasting foundations for earth, tell us, how far below earth have you been? Hast thou been to the place of the dead?
Canst thou loose the bands of Arturus, as they currently are in this state universe? And do you know the way to the sides of the north?

Or, pixies, are you just the demons or imagination of some tortured minds, that have chosen darkness over light?"

OK, Poe, I asked em for ya. Thanks for your offering of Pixies as the ones to really look to on claims of the pre science past.

By the way, I suspect that the new state coming, the new heavens will see the bands of Arturus freed, no longer frozen in some PO spiral. But I digress.

 

[AV1611VET]

Athrond: "yeah yeah I know! It's awesome! But How did you DO that?"

The question in my challenge though, is what evidence would you present to your friend that I did it, not how I did it. HOW I did it is simple: ex nihilo.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

And my point was: there may be evidence.

Of what, exactly?

after all there is no 8th day in wich god erased all the evidence of his creation prosesses.

Processes? A process takes one thing and churns out another (processed meat, for instance). The Creation even is allegedly the poofing into existence the universe and all its contents. It's no more a process than it is an event

and in AV's chalenge there is even a posisbility to study the creator directly. Preferably by probing

Thus emphasising the unavailability of evidence for creation ex nihilo.

but hey, don't let my pragmatism disrupt your fancy thought experiments

It's not my thought experiment. I'm a scientist, not a Christian (see what I did there? ).

And if you're a pragmatist, I'm the Borg Queen to your Admiral Janeway.

Quick, let's make out!

 

[MoonLancer]

Yes, "Pixies, which one of you imaginary beings sprinkled stardust onto the too small to see with the naked eye creator speck o soup? And which one waved the wand over the crack that spawned plants and animals, in some rock, or vent?

it was a team effort

And, yes, Poe's Pixies, how many of you were there at the time of the long lifespans recorded in either the bible, or Sumer?

I have. those men in the bible have been long dead and rotting, and i am still here.

How many of you were there at the building of the great pyramid, to observe the laws of physics, if there was any at the time?

I have, it was the pixies. They formed our world with forests of green. some of us follow the blighters destain for life and turn their great creation into ash.

How many were there when God laid the
foundations of the earth, speak, if you know?

I was, and it was the pixies.

And if you pixies want to fly around, and say there are no everlasting foundations for earth, tell us, how far below earth have you been? Hast thou been to the place of the dead?

Indeed. I have walked with Dante though gods paradise. not a fun place, let me tell you.
pixies created the world. God took the credit. care to disprove me? Ha, we are in unfalsifiable territory now. Anyone can say anything, and no counter argument of any substance can made.

Or, pixies, are you just the demons or imagination of some tortured minds, that have chosen darkness over light?"

God is the great blighter who the pixies fight day and night to save our ruined world. God wishes to end the world under the guise of a new one, but no new world will ever be manifest.

 

[MoonLancer]

The question in my challenge though, is what evidence would you present to your friend that I did it, not how I did it. HOW I did it is simple: ex nihilo.

did the apple have a stem?

 

[AV1611VET]

did the apple have a stem?

Either/or --- it doesn't matter.

 

[pgp_protector]

...snip...
And if you're a pragmatist, I'm the Borg Queen to your Admiral Janeway.

Quick, let's make out!

And we know who won in that battle

 

[dad]

And we know who won in that battle

Alrighty, then. Your tv show support is noted.

 

[Athrond]

Just because something is created ex nihilo, does that nessasarily mean that no evidence can be found by studying the createt thingy?

Am I missing something philosophical mumbo jumbo here? feel free to educate me

On the voyager pragmatist issue: all threads should be spiced generously with sillynes

 

[AV1611VET]

Just because something is created ex nihilo, does that nessasarily mean that no evidence can be found by studying the createt thingy?

Well then, present it --- that's what I'm asking for --- what evidence would you use to convince your friend I did this?

 

[dad]

Just because something is created ex nihilo, does that nessasarily mean that no evidence can be found by studying the createt thingy?

Am I missing something philosophical mumbo jumbo here? feel free to educate me

On the voyager pragmatist issue: all threads should be spiced generously with sillynes

Yes, you are misssing something. If one assumes that the creation is the current reality state of the universe we know. That, you cannot know. All you can know is how it is now. The state of things at creation does not have to equal the way things now are.

 

[AV1611VET]

The state of things at creation does not have to equal the way things now are.

That is correct --- the sun could have been green prior to the Fall, for all we know.

I doubt it, but I'm making a point here.

 

[MoonLancer]

Either/or --- it doesn't matter.

ah but it does. so which is it?

 

[AV1611VET]

ah but it does. so which is it?

To expedite this and get it over with, the apple had a core.

 

[dad]

That is correct --- the sun could have been green prior to the Fall, for all we know.

I doubt it, but I'm making a point here.

Right. The honest answer is science does not know. It does not know that present light photosynthesis was in place.

 

[MoonLancer]

To expedite this and get it over with, the apple had a core.

why would it have a core if it wasn't actually grown? seems like someone is embedding false history. why would that be done if only do make said apple apear to be something it is not.

Whats the difference from someone who claimed you created an apple and actually saw you do it, compared to someone who makes the same claim, and did not see you do it?

How is the bible any different?

sure the bible could be right, but all that's really left is faith that its right. The same goes for all the religions out their. well except for Buddhism, as a new Buddha has arisen.