Judging

[nephilimiyr]

How could I be elevating scripture above the Word if I believe they are one and the same? The same means...thw same. Not one greater than the other. I think you may be violating your own Statement of Faith.

I think the point is, truth is in the word but there is no automatic easy button to push to understand it? It is always posible for you to misinterpret and or misunderstand it, whether you are doing the interpreting or someone else is for you.

 

[Tamara224]

How could I be elevating scripture above the Word if I believe they are one and the same? The same means...thw same. Not one greater than the other. I think you may be violating your own Statement of Faith.

Um... I haven't posted a "statement of faith." Quit trying to pigeon-hole me, please.

I think what you are doing is elevating the Bible over the Word (Jesus) because in practice (if not in theory) you cling to (your understanding of) the Bible instead of seeking answers from Jesus. In practice, then, you deny reality in favor of what you think the Bible says - which means you cut off the possibility that Jesus will teach you something via the circumstances he places you in or allows you to be in. In essence, cutting off the relationship with the Word (Jesus) and attempting to put the Bible in that place instead.

Another point I'm wondering about is, since "The Word became flesh and lived among us", what do you think "The Word" refers to?

Check out this article - it gives a good summary of the concept of the "logos".

http://www.orkneycommunities.co.uk/EFR/Documents\Study\John\01 God became flesh.pdf

 

[ARBITER01]

Um... I haven't posted a "statement of faith." Quit trying to pigeon-hole me, please.

I think what you are doing is elevating the Bible over the Word (Jesus) because in practice (if not in theory) you cling to (your understanding of) the Bible instead of seeking answers from Jesus. In practice, then, you deny reality in favor of what you think the Bible says - which means you cut off the possibility that Jesus will teach you something via the circumstances he places you in or allows you to be in. In essence, cutting off the relationship with the Word (Jesus) and attempting to put the Bible in that place instead.

As you know and have seen on here before, that is not an uncommon position. Many church's teach young Christians to place their bibles in between GOD and them, and that they can only know the will of GOD by revelation and insight from their bible.

That is bible idolatry. Cut and dry.

We have a personal relationship with an actual being above, a person, and His name is Jesus. He is who we look to for guidance on everything, including revelation from our bible. Without that personal relationship foremost in our lives, we are deceived.

Ps. my kitty is tougher than yours.

 

[FrankFaith]

I think what you are doing is elevating the Bible over the Word (Jesus) because in practice (if not in theory) you cling to (your understanding of) the Bible instead of seeking answers from Jesus. In practice, then, you deny reality in favor of what you think the Bible says - which means you cut off the possibility that Jesus will teach you something via the circumstances he places you in or allows you to be in. In essence, cutting off the relationship with the Word (Jesus) and attempting to put the Bible in that place instead.

Wow--you couldn't be more mistaken.

If you hear from HS and what you hear doesn't line up with the Word, you know that its now HS you're hearing from. This is how you should be evaluating what you think is HS leading.

Do you think that HS may be leading you to believe for healing? If so, this lines up with the Word. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!!

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

 

[enoch son]

The pole statement isn't showing the whole statement above. Here's the whole statement:

Don’t judge my Word by your circumstances. Judge your circumstances by my Word. If your circumstances do not line up with My Word, reject your circumstances, not my Word.

Agree or disagree?

It doesn't matter! One's ideal of what the word say's might not be what it say's.

 

[FrankFaith]

It doesn't matter! One's ideal of what the word say's might not be what it say's.

OK--Let's try your idea with the subject of healing:

Do you think that HS may be leading you to believe for healing? If so, this lines up with the Word.

Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM!!!

*If you say it does, please DO produce some scripture TO THIS END (not off the subject).

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

 

[Tamara224]

Wow--you couldn't be more mistaken.

If you hear from HS and what you hear doesn't line up with the Word, you know that its now HS you're hearing from. This is how you should be evaluating what you think is HS leading.

Do you think that HS may be leading you to believe for healing? If so, this lines up with the Word. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!!

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

So, basically what you're saying is that if the Holy Spirit tells you something you don't agree with based on your personal understanding of what Scripture says, then it's okay to ignore the Holy Spirit.

Hence, you elevate your own understanding of the Bible over a real relationship with an actual Person.

I'm sorry, Frank, but you're missing out on what it really means to have a relationship with Jesus. Substituting formulas and empty promises for the real abundant life that Jesus came to give us.

 

[FrankFaith]

So, basically what you're saying is that if the Holy Spirit tells you something you don't agree with based on your personal understanding of what Scripture says, then it's okay to ignore the Holy Spirit.

No--that is not what I am saying. That is what you say I'm saying. Please read my healing example and let's not move on until you read it and comment on it.

 

[FrankFaith]

Break this down for me--please tell me where you think I am in error:

If you hear from HS, and what you hear doesn't line up with the Word, you know that its not HS you're hearing from. This is how you should be evaluating what you think is HS leading.

a. Do you think that HS may be leading you to believe for healing? If so, this lines up with the Word.

b. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!! Never are we told to dispose of scriptural faith!!! God is not a respector of persons--if He did it for others, He will do it for you--OH WAIT--SINCE HE HAS ALREADY DONE IT FOR EVERYONE, IT (HEALING IN THIS CASE) IS WAITING FOR YOUR TO ACCEPT.

HS guidance will NEVER conflict with the Word (scripture). *This effectually makes them equal--one and the same.

 

[Tamara224]

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No--that is not what I am saying. That is what you say I'm saying. Please read my healing example and let's not move on until you read it and comment on it.

I did read and comment on it. You just don't like my comments because they don't follow your formula and they didn't trap me into answering the way you wanted me to. I've debated this many times before, Frank, I know all the tricks.

Physical healing in this life is not guaranteed by the Bible. If you're interested, there are abundant previous threads on the subject in this forum in which I have participated - you can do a search for them. I have no desire to get into the fight again. Maybe Jimbeaux will take up that debate again, but I'm done with it. Especially as it is a rabbit trail.

My point, which I will reiterate, is, according to your hypothetical:

What you are basically doing is starting with a presupposition that you know what the Bible means - IOW, you think you're right about your interpretation (i.e. healing is guaranteed). Then you hear something from the Holy Spirit and you presume that it isn't really the Holy Spirit because what it is saying doesn't line up with what you think the Bible says.

In essence, then, you haven't even sought the Truth. You are simply sticking with what you already "knew".

You never even consider the possibility that the Voice you hear really is the Holy Spirit trying to teach you that what you think the Bible says isn't really what the Bible says.

You've missed an opportunity to seek God for wisdom and answers. You've closed your eyes and your ears and your heart from a real relationship. Because, rather than humbly admitting "I may have misunderstood the Bible" you dogmatically and arrogantly say "I already know what it means and nothing and no One is going to change my mind about this."

 

[Tamara224]

HS guidance will NEVER conflict with the Word (scripture). *This effectually makes them equal--one and the same.

But it will OFTEN conflict with our understanding of Scripture. That's how He teaches... He often has to show us where we are wrong before He can teach us what is right.

It does not make them equal, either. What is ironic about that is... well... It's not supported by Scripture.

 

[FrankFaith]

THE IRONY HERE IS THAT YOU ARE THE ONE IN ERROR. That is sad.

Proof? Here it is--you won't do this:

Break this down for me--please tell me where you think I am in error:

If you hear from HS, and what you hear doesn't line up with the Word, you know that its not HS you're hearing from. This is how you should be evaluating what you think is HS leading.

a. Do you think that HS may be leading you to believe for healing? If so, this lines up with the Word.

b. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!! Never are we told to dispose of scriptural faith!!! God is not a respector of persons--if He did it for others, He will do it for you--OH WAIT--SINCE HE HAS ALREADY DONE IT FOR EVERYONE, IT (HEALING IN THIS CASE) IS WAITING FOR YOU TO ACCEPT.

HS guidance will NEVER conflict with the Word (scripture). *This effectually makes them equal--one and the same.

 

[FrankFaith]

Honestly, just break this down and show me where you think I am in error SPECIFICALLY.

a. Do you think that HS may be leading you to believe for healing? If so, this lines up with the Word.

b. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!! Never are we told to dispose of scriptural faith!!! God is not a respector of persons--if He did it for others, He will do it for you--OH WAIT--SINCE HE HAS ALREADY DONE IT FOR EVERYONE, IT (HEALING IN THIS CASE) IS WAITING FOR YOU TO ACCEPT.

 

[JimB]

*****

If you hear from HS, and what you hear doesn't line up with the Word, you know that its not HS you're hearing from. This is how you should be evaluating what you think is HS leading.

*****

Could it possibly be that, maybe, when the Holy Spirit speaks something to you and it is at variance with your understanding of “the Word” that it’s your interpretation of the Word is wrong. I mean, that is a possibility, right?

~Jim

“We were made not primarily that we may love God but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the divine love may rest ‘well pleased.’” ​

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

​

 

[Tamara224]

THE IRONY HERE IS THAT YOU ARE THE ONE IN ERROR. That is sad.

Proof? Here it is--you won't do this:

Break this down for me--please tell me where you think I am in error:

If you hear from HS, and what you hear doesn't line up with the Word, you know that its not HS you're hearing from. This is how you should be evaluating what you think is HS leading.

Where you are wrong in this is that you are assuming that you already know what the Word (Scripture) means.

You fail to take into account that you may have misunderstood and/or misinterpreted Scripture.

a. Do you think that HS may be leading you to believe for healing? If so, this lines up with the Word.

If the Holy Spirit tells you that He is going to heal you in time and you should believe that it is going to happen, then I see no conflict there with Scripture.

Each person should listen to the Holy Spirit and follow His guidance. If He reveals personally to them that He is going to heal them if they continue to wait and trust, then they should continue to wait and trust.

b. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!!

Actually, yes it does line up with Scripture:

• The apostle Paul couldn't heal Timothy's stomach problem (1 Timothy 5:23) nor could he heal Trophimus at Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20) or Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27).
• Paul spoke of “a bodily illness” he had (Galatians 4:13-15). He also suffered a “thorn in the flesh” which God allowed him to retain (2 Corinthians 12:7-9).
• God certainly allowed Job to go through a time of physical suffering.
• In none of these cases is it stated that the sickness was caused by sin or unbelief.
• Nor did Paul or any of the others act as if they thought their healing was guaranteed in the atonement. They accepted their situations and trusted in God's grace for sustenance.
• It is noteworthy that on one occasion Jesus indicated that sickness could be for the glory of God (John 11:4).
• There are numerous verses in Scripture which reveal that our physical bodies are continuously running down and suffering various ailments. Our present bodies are said to be perishable and weak (1 Corinthians 15:42-44). Paul said "our outer man is decaying" (2 Corinthians 4:16). Death and disease will be a part of the human condition until that time when we receive resurrection bodies that are immune to such frailties (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

Never are we told to dispose of scriptural faith!!!

And never have I suggested that we should. I've only suggested that we place our faith in Christ Jesus and not our own understanding of what Scripture says.

Please calm down. Getting yourself worked up and angry with me will not advance your argument.

God is not a respector of persons--if He did it for others, He will do it for you--OH WAIT--SINCE HE HAS ALREADY DONE IT FOR EVERYONE, IT (HEALING IN THIS CASE) IS WAITING FOR YOU TO ACCEPT.

I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. I think you are taking things out of context and misapplying them.

I think God would show you this if you weren't so close-minded to the Truth.

HS guidance will NEVER conflict with the Word (scripture). *This effectually makes them equal--one and the same.

I agree, Frank, God's guidance won't conflict with Scripture. But it will often conflict with what we think is Scripture.

Frank, all I can do is repeat what I've already said.

What you keep refusing to acknowledge is that there might possibly be a difference between what you think the Bible means and what it actually means.

Until you recognize that you may be misunderstanding the Bible, then you're never going to be able to learn that you are in error, you'll never grow, and you'll miss out on enjoying the fullness of the relationship you could be experiencing with God.

 

[HighwayMan]

Honestly, just break this down and show me where you think I am in error SPECIFICALLY.

a. Do you think that HS may be leading you to believe for healing? If so, this lines up with the Word.

b. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!! Never are we told to dispose of scriptural faith!!! God is not a respector of persons--if He did it for others, He will do it for you--OH WAIT--SINCE HE HAS ALREADY DONE IT FOR EVERYONE, IT (HEALING IN THIS CASE) IS WAITING FOR YOU TO ACCEPT.

The only error you are in as the delusion that you know for certain what his word is. I'd understand if God himself wrote down the Bible in front of your eyes and told you what everything he wrote means, but other than that you are relying on translations, paraphrases, various edits and the innumerable errors of man.

 

[FrankFaith]

Wow.

This is exhausting.

In a nutshell, you are basically saying that I am finding scripture that supports my specific interpretation. But I am not. Please look again at what you have done to my simple example--this is the only part that you disagree with:

b. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!!

Read that again and again. Everything you typed to support your disagreement NONE of it applies because this is what I am getting at:

Never are we told to dispose of scriptural faith!!!
​

AND YOU AGREE WITH THAT!

Again, please re-read what it is you are disagreeing with--you're jumping right over what I'm saying--you're missing what i am saying. You are even saying that you AGREE with it:

And never have I suggested that we should. I've only suggested that we place our faith in Christ Jesus and not our own understanding of what Scripture says.

Please calm down. Getting yourself worked up and angry with me will not advance your argument.

​

 

[FrankFaith]

The only error you are in as the delusion that you know for certain what his word is. I'd understand if God himself wrote down the Bible in front of your eyes and told you what everything he wrote means, but other than that you are relying on translations, paraphrases, various edits and the innumerable errors of man.

I hope you and Jimbeaux continue to follow this dialogue--you may discover what I am saying--and that what you think I am saying, I AM NOT SAYING...

Please follow the dialogue...

 

[Tamara224]

Wow.

This is exhausting.

In a nutshell, you are basically saying that I am finding scripture that supports my specific interpretation. But I am not. Please look again at what you have done to my simple example--this is the only part that you disagree with:

b. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!!

Read that again and again. Everything you typed to support your disagreement NONE of it applies because this is what I am getting at:

Never are we told to dispose of scriptural faith!!!
​

AND YOU AGREE WITH THAT!

Again, please re-read what it is you are disagreeing with--you're jumping right over what I'm saying--you're missing what i am saying. You are even saying that you AGREE with it:


​

Okay, this is a waste of time. You're completely ignoring my main point. Jimbeaux and Highwayman have also made the same point.

Obviously, you're hoping that I'll answer your post a certain way because you think you've got me cornered.

But you just can't see the forest for the trees. I'm not going to sit here and continue repeating the same things over and over again... that would be insane. I've answered you three times now.

I'm sorry that you can't see it. Maybe someday you will.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
​

 

[FrankFaith]

Just as I suspected--you think that I am ganging up on you or whatever. No--I am not. You just aren't hearing what I am saying and when you get close, you fear that you may agree so you run. This happens every time. Fear. But we are to fear not.

I'll try again for anyone else who may be following this dialogue:

Tamara was basically saying that I am finding scripture that supports my specific interpretation. But I am not. Please look again at what she has done to my simple example--this is the only part that she disagreed with:

b. Do you think HS may be leading you to NOT get your hopes up for healing? THIS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD!!!

This is what I am getting at:

Never are we told to dispose of scriptural faith!!!
​

Again, please re-read what it is you are may be disagreeing with--you're jumping right over what I'm saying--you're missing what i am saying. You are may even be saying that you AGREE with it.​