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Ask the Pan(en)theist

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Druweid

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It's just when people pick a particular personal deity (wow, what an alliteration!) and conflate it with the One True God that my hackles rise, as that sort of exclusivism usually leads to conflict and bloodshed.
Indeed, I've met the occasional Dianic Wiccan or two that gave me that very same feeling, as well as one guy who focused exclusively on the Horned God (I *think* he said his trad was the Clan of Tubal Cain). Each of them spoke of was how "others" weren't getting it right. :doh: Oh yeah, there was conflict brewing wherever they went.

Brightest blessings,
-- Druweid
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Jane, do you believe that the Supreme Being (I won't use the term "God") is personal or impersonal? Do you believe that the Supreme has attributes, or that the Supreme is more like an all-pervading universal force?
Well, I think the dichotomy of personal vs. impersonal doesn't quite do justice to the All, as the first term evokes notions of a human range of consciousness, whereas the latter implies a total lack of sentience. I think the best way to circumscribe my impression of the "Supreme Being" is the term transpersonal, as every single consciousness (and unconsciousness, and inanimate particle) is part of the Whole. I don't think It is a person - but neither do I think that It is less-than a person, quite the contrary.
(Of course, even that attempt of mine to circumscribe the Divine doesn't quite cut it - yet it might get a little closer than the usual paradigm of "person vs. impersonal force" - I'd say it's both and neither, both all-encompassing and literally no-thing.

I ask this because what you have described seems similar to the Mayavada philosophy of the Hindu saint Sri Shankaracharya. Shankaracharya taught that the Supreme Being (Brahman) was without form, attributes, or activities. Anything that appeared to give Brahman form, attributes or activities was merely an illusion. According to this philosophy, the various Hindu gods and goddesses are just different forms of the impersonal Brahman.

Shankaracharya taught that this world is ultimately just maya (illusion) and the only thing that really existed was Brahman. According to him, the human soul was actually Brahman, and it was simply illusion that it appeared different from Brahman.
I can totally relate to that notion, and believe that this particular insight is shared by all mystics, regardless of their exoteric religious affiliation. I think a Sufi, a Zen Buddhist, A Kabbalist, an Eastern Orthodox monk, a Hindu mystic and a naturalistic pantheist (just to mention a few) might easily have a lot more in common than their exoteric surroundings might suggest.
It's only the constructs erected on top of these insights that are profoundly different.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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What's the difference between panentheism vs pantheism?
I've answered that question before, but will give it another go now, anyway.

Panentheists, as a rule of thumb, think that "God" is both immanent and transcendent.
Pantheists - particularly the naturalistic kind - stick to the notion of immanence and scrap the whole notion of transcendence.

Personally, I'm somewhere between the two. I do not believe in the "supernatural", think that the very term "god" suggests a more or less human-ish person, yet would also maintain that the universe is more than the sum of its parts.
 
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Druweid

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What's the difference between panentheism vs pantheism?
First, understand that pantheism and panentheism are very general terms to describe an overall philosophy/belief, and significant variations do occur. One notable example; some eastern pantheists incorporate the belief that there is no distinction between the creator and the created, while most western pantheists does not incorporate this belief. That having been said, allow me to try and explain through example;

Pantheism: All things in the universe are connected to, and are a part of, God, and the sum of all parts of the Universe are God. To fully and accurately know and understand the universe, from the greatest cosmic cataclysm to the simplest of single-cell organisms, is to begin to understand the form and nature of God.

Panentheism: As all things contain and are bound by energy at the atomic level, so too do all things contain contain a "spark" of God, and therefore, all things are connected to God. But just as a light bulb is to an electric generator, so too is God separate, and beyond, all things in the Universe. To fully and accurately know and understand the universe, from the greatest cosmic cataclysm to the simplest of single-cell organisms, might give some insight to the nature of God, but no more than viewing a hundred Rembrandt paintings would give one insight to the nature of Mr. Harmenszoon van Rijn.

Self_portrait_leaning_on_si_373x470.jpg


Does this help make it clearer?

Kindest regards,
-- Druweid
 
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Chesterton

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How do you jump to that conclusion?

Because if I took that single sentence as a starting point, I could deduce much of Christian theology from it. But anyway...

Actually, I read that quote rather anachronistically, interpreting it in terms of Jungian psychology: in getting to know ourselves, we inevitably come to understand the Archetypes that we share with the rest of humanity, and thus also learn to grasp the way we perceive and relate to the rest of the universe.

The Oracle quote implies that it should be a goal to know the universe and its gods. You include your fellow man in that, which is fine, but as to the rest of the universe, I come back in my mind to the dumb question “are rocks God?” Maybe I should have asked that first. So I'll ask that. :)

...the universe is more than the sum of its parts.

Could you explain what that means?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Because if I took that single sentence as a starting point, I could deduce much of Christian theology from it. But anyway...
You could? I don't quite see how, as most of Christianity as I know it isn't too big on the topic of self-realization, but mostly concerns itself with self-denial and, paradoxically, getting a good insurance deal to dodge all personal responsibility. (Oh, I'm well aware that this is but ONE face of Christianity - see it as an ecouragement for you to tell me about your particular perspective; preferably in a PM, in order not to derail this thread.)

The Oracle quote implies that it should be a goal to know the universe and its gods.

Not quite. The central part of the quote (and usually the ONLY part that is quoted at all) is "Know Thyself" - the rest is only the result of that knowledge.

You include your fellow man in that, which is fine, but as to the rest of the universe, I come back in my mind to the dumb question “are rocks God?” Maybe I should have asked that first. So I'll ask that. :)
Are smudges of paint the Mona Lisa?
Well, actually that's a rather flawed metaphor, as it implies the whole anthropomorphic (and utterly fallacious) "creation needs a creator" - angle.
So, let's put it differently: is a drop of ocean spray part of the sea, or is it not?

Could you explain what that means?
For this one, I'll actually return to the painting-analogy, if only because we usually attach much more meaning to a work of art than to a natural phenomenon.
The Mona Lisa is blotches of paint on a bit of canvas - and the perceptions and associations that are triggered in our brain when we look at these. Our perception, in turn, is shaped by a rich cultural tradition that makes us identify this particular painting as the Mona Lisa to begin with - and so on and so forth. Nothing is "just so" - everything is connected to an ever-widening web of interconnections, whether human minds are involved in it or not. There is no such thing as insignificance, as every grain of sand is the desert.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Here is a portion of a timely article from New Scientist magazine:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026764.100-why-nature-is-not-the-sum-of-its-parts.html

Why nature can't be reduced to mathematical laws

ONE of the grand aims of science is to explain every aspect of nature in terms of simple, fundamental laws - but is this possible? A team of physicists claims to have found a hint that some things simply cannot be computed, and that nature could be more than the sum of its parts.

The idea of reductionism, a key tool in science for centuries, holds that everything in nature can ultimately be understood by gaining knowledge of its constituent parts. The laws of fluid flows, for example, can be derived from the deeper laws of atomic and molecular motion, which in turn follow from quantum physics.

In 1972, physicist Philip Anderson pointed out that there could be a problem with this approach. Anderson suggested that some systems may be more than the sum of their parts. He championed "emergence" - the notion that important kinds of organisation might emerge in systems of many interacting parts, but not follow in any way from the properties of those parts. If so, then even perfect knowledge of the physics at one level would be inadequate for understanding organisation at higher levels. This conjecture has been debated ever since.

Now Mile Gu at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, and colleagues, claim that it may be possible to prove Anderson's idea. They studied a basic mathematical model called the Ising model, which is often used to study how magnetism arises in iron and other materials from the collective organisation of their atoms.

To picture the Ising model, imagine a 3D lattice of atoms. Each atom acts like a tiny magnet to those around it, and adopts a particular orientation depending on the forces between atoms. This mirrors what happens in real-world materials, where the atoms adopt different patterns of orientation depending on the atomic forces. In iron, for instance, the atoms will sometimes point in a similar direction - making the material magnetic overall - whereas in alloys the pattern is more complex.

Using the model, the team focused on whether the pattern that the atoms adopt under various scenarios, such as a state of lowest energy, could be calculated from knowledge of those forces. They found that in some scenarios, the pattern of atoms could not be calculated from knowledge of the forces - even given unlimited computing power. In mathematical terms, the system is considered "formally undecidable".

"We were able to find a number of properties that were simply decoupled from the fundamental interactions," says Gu. Even some really simple properties of the model, such as the fraction of atoms oriented in one direction, cannot be computed.

This result, says Gu, shows that some of the models scientists use to simulate physical systems may actually have properties that cannot be linked to the behaviour of their parts (www.arxiv.org/abs/0809.0151). This, in turn, may help explain why our description of nature operates at many levels, rather than working from just one. "A 'theory of everything' might not explain all natural phenomena," says Gu. "Real understanding may require further experiments and intuition at every level."



eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Thanks for that, Mark!

Now, I think I'll answer a question that no one has asked yet, namely: how do I view the role of Man in relation to the universe.

Actually, I don't. I'm highly suspicious of sweeping meta-narratives that seek to reduce the purpose of existence and consciousness to a single, monolithic cause. Whenever someone claims to have found the ultimate and authoritative answer to life, the universe, and everything, my suspicions sky-rocket - and rightly so.

I don't think that the notion of purpose is external to ourselves, or that we are part of a single narrative frame that leads from a cosmic Introduction to a grand Epilogue that brings all the loose ends together with a flourish. Narrative is a valid tool of making sense of things - yet only on a personal level. I could no more tell you the hows and whys of your existence than you could tell me mine, especially as far as the aforementioned overarching master-narratives are concerned. Virtually nothing can be reduced to a single cause and reason.

With that in mind, my awe and reverence for the All does not mean that I reduce the individual to the level of inconsequence. The droplet is the sea; it is not irrelevant, or only relevant as far as its being part of the great Whole is concerned. It is an end in and of itself, as fundamental to the Whole as all the rest. To me, there is no such thing as insignificance. We are the universe trying to understand itself - and as my sig line suggests, that path can not only lead through a study of the external mechanisms, but must ultimately be pursued by means of self-realization.
 
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Chesterton

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Are smudges of paint the Mona Lisa?
Well, actually that's a rather flawed metaphor, as it implies the whole anthropomorphic (and utterly fallacious) "creation needs a creator" - angle.
So, let's put it differently: is a drop of ocean spray part of the sea, or is it not?

Okay, but paint, the Mona Lisa, water drops and the sea are all matter. By asking “are rocks God”, I’m asking if matter has mind.

For this one, I'll actually return to the painting-analogy, if only because we usually attach much more meaning to a work of art than to a natural phenomenon.
The Mona Lisa is blotches of paint on a bit of canvas - and the perceptions and associations that are triggered in our brain when we look at these. Our perception, in turn, is shaped by a rich cultural tradition that makes us identify this particular painting as the Mona Lisa to begin with - and so on and so forth.

That’s interesting. To help explain the statement, you’d look to art rather than a “natural” phenomenon. But art can only be made by a rational mind. If you see “more than the sum of the parts” in Nature as well as in art, wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude that Nature was also made by a rational mind?
 
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anatolian

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As this forum seems quite overburdened with Christian vs. Muslim flame wars and/or the death throes of GA, I figured it would be nice to resuscitate the classic type of "Ask a..."-thread that used to pop up around here a lot.

So - fire away! There's no such thing as a dumb question, even if it's: "Do you actually think that God is a bunch of rocks?"
Are you a pantheist or panenthiest?

Once you created the same thread and I asked the same question but you said that you don't know any difference or you don't differentiate them.Do you know?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Okay, but paint, the Mona Lisa, water drops and the sea are all matter. By asking “are rocks God”, I’m asking if matter has mind.
Do rocks think? No. You need a nervous system for that.
Is mind/consciousness a product of material processes? Well, have you ever looked at a person with severe brain damage? Not much mind left there.



That’s interesting. To help explain the statement, you’d look to art rather than a “natural” phenomenon.

For the reasons stated.
But art can only be made by a rational mind.
It can also only be received by a rational mind.
If you see “more than the sum of the parts” in Nature as well as in art, wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude that Nature was also made by a rational mind?
No.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Are you a pantheist or panenthiest?

Once you created the same thread and I asked the same question but you said that you don't know any difference or you don't differentiate them.Do you know?
Well, this was one of the first questions asked in this thread as well: look around, I've tackled it several times, further clarifying my POV as I went along.
 
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Chesterton

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Do rocks think? No. You need a nervous system for that.
Is mind/consciousness a product of material processes? Well, have you ever looked at a person with severe brain damage? Not much mind left there.

Of course mind/consciousness is a product of material processes, but is it one product among many? Or do all material processes produce it anywhere and anytime there are material processes?

For the reasons stated.

I didn’t understand the reason. You said it was “because we usually attach much more meaning to a work of art than to a natural phenomenon”. What basis is there for attaching more meaning to the Mona Lisa than to the Pacific Ocean? A painting and an ocean are both just arranged matter (H20 has an arrangement, and the sea itself is arranged by gravity and land elevations), and both are the result of material processes. (As you noted above, mind/consciousness is a product of material processes.)


The correct answer was “yes”. :) Otherwise there are no grounds for attaching more meaning to human art than to natural phenomena, because there are no grounds for attaching any meaning to anything.
 
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Druweid

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But art can only be made by a rational mind.
It can also only be received by a rational mind.
Might I submit for consideration, the art of Adolf Wolfli?


If you see “more than the sum of the parts” in Nature as well as in art, wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude that Nature was also made by a rational mind?
No.
The correct answer was “yes”. :)
I disagree. Did you not read what Eudaimonist posted?
In 1972, physicist Philip Anderson ... suggested that some systems may be more than the sum of their parts. He championed "emergence" - the notion that important kinds of organisation might emerge in systems of many interacting parts, but not follow in any way from the properties of those parts. If so, then even perfect knowledge of the physics at one level would be inadequate for understanding organisation at higher levels. This conjecture has been debated ever since.
In no way does this theory imply that the observed phenomena must have been created by a rational mind. Unless you have additional information not yet presented, there is no correct answer, only your opinion.

Regards,
-- Druweid
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Why do we attach more meaning to small black marks on a page than to the footprints a bird leaves in the sand, even though the two can be strikingly familiar?

Because people at some point deemed it practical to attach meaning to certain forms, and started to use them to communicate with each other.
There's nothing in the shape of the letter "A" that links it to the vowel - its meaning is based solely on our agreement to perceive it in such a fashion. And accordingly, we can use it to transfer meaning - in this case, from me to you. The transition isn't always flawless, as misunderstandings demonstrate only too readily. Yet it works well enough to suit our general purpose.

Art is like that: it is conceived by humans for humans, and its very purpose is to communicate certain messages - the same cannot be said for, say, the crystalline structures that some minerals assemble into due to their molecular structure. We can attach meaning to them - but that meaning originates within our mind, not without.
The whole "creation needs a creator"-angle strikes me as one of those supremely silly anthropomorphisms. It's as if you were trying to argue that snow crystals were too complex to assemble on their own, and therefore pointed to the existence of the artistic Snow Elves who assemble them in their cloud-bound workshops.
 
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Chesterton

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Might I submit for consideration, the art of Adolf Wolfli?

Wolfli was not an animal. He had a human mind, regardless of its condition.

In no way does this theory imply that the observed phenomena must have been created by a rational mind. Unless you have additional information not yet presented, there is no correct answer, only your opinion.

I didn’t claim it “must have been created”. I merely asked whether Jane agreed that it is not unreasonable to conclude that it was.

She said she believes the universe is more than the sum of its parts, then made an analogy of how art is more than the sum of its parts. We know art is created by minds. She separated “art” from “natural phenomena”. I know why a monotheist would separate the two, but I’m not sure why a pantheist would, for her purpose. But she did, so to be consistent, she should have said that yes, a creating deity is a reasonable idea. That’s all I was getting at.
 
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Chesterton

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The whole "creation needs a creator"-angle strikes me as one of those supremely silly anthropomorphisms.

Then the Delphi Oracle was wrong.

It's as if you were trying to argue that snow crystals were too complex to assemble on their own, and therefore pointed to the existence of the artistic Snow Elves who assemble them in their cloud-bound workshops.

...which is a reasonable argument. What’s your prejudice against the existence of Snow Elves? The fact that you’ve never seen one? That would an unreasonable argument against them.

-----

Should I say “Three strikes, you’re out”? I’ve been accommodating, and asked the same thing in different ways, to meet your sidestepping. This is your thread, and "Do you actually think that God is a bunch of rocks?" was your own suggested question. I assumed you had a ready answer when you suggested the question, but you still haven’t answered.

Jane, you write with knowledge and clarity on many different subjects in various forums. I’ve seen you express yourself well on religion, history, mythology, language, etc. Why is it that when it comes to expressing your own beliefs, you are vague, evasive and slightly incoherent?
 
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Druweid

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Wolfli was not an animal. He had a human mind, regardless of its condition.
Excuse me?!? Go back to YOUR own post:
But art can only be made by a rational mind.
Where in here does it say "animal?" How can you specify a condition of the mind (i.e., rational), and then say "...regardless of its condition."?

I didn’t claim it “must have been created”. I merely asked whether Jane agreed that it is not unreasonable to conclude that it was.
You made that exact claim when you answered your own question with a "Yes." Are you now claiming that you were talking about something else?


I won't even begin to respond the the rest of your post unless you can adequately explain your apparent dishonesty.

Regards,
-- Druweid
 
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Chesterton

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Excuse me?!? Go back to YOUR own post:

Where in here does it say "animal?" How can you specify a condition of the mind (i.e., rational), and then say "...regardless of its condition."?

I’m not specifying a condition of mind, rather a kind of mind - human or “better”. If I refer to a “rational mind”, I’m talking about the human mind, regardless of the state of health of some particular unfortunates you might come across.

You made that exact claim when you answered your own question with a "Yes." Are you now claiming that you were talking about something else?

This is exactly what I asked, and what I said “Yes” to: (Post #31)

“…wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude that Nature was also made by a rational mind?”
I didn’t say anything like “…wouldn’t you have to conclude…” or “…wouldn’t reason require you to conclude…”.
 
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