The "taboos of society"

[BlackSabb]

Hey everyone. I just wanted to know what you thought of the "taboos of society". How much are you dictated by what the rest of society does?

I was wondering why does the majority of a particular culture, nation etc dictate rules? And why is something "taboo" in one culture, and not another? Why is something "taboo" in one time and not another? And why should we be following others? Why is it that some elements of society can cast off their taboos and others can't?

I personally think that a lot of this notion of "society's taboos" is nonsense. Once upon a time, women did not even have the right to vote. Some women took it upon themselves to challenge this "taboo" and gain the right to vote and equality. Nowadays, it is "taboo" for women not to vote or not be considered equal. This is an example of how taboos change.

I've had a debate with another poster here on this forum, regarding gender distinctions in clothing. Again, women once did not wear pants/slacks. That was once "taboo". Now, women wear pants and jeans and ties and boots and everything men wear. Just who makes all the rules and says that this is taboo and this is not, and this is taboo for this time and this is not taboo anymore?

Also, for those who slavishly believe in submitting to society's "taboos", that also means that they shouldn't engage in anything that is unconventional either. You know, just to be on the safe side. If you're a woman, then you shouldn't be a mechanic or truck driver. If you're a man, don't do ballet. Be consistent, if you believe that the rest of society dictates your every move, then listen to what society is telling you and follow it to the letter of the law.

I personally believe that the only real "taboos" are what I would call human taboos-not society taboos. That is, real and not imaginary taboos that apply to all periods in human history, and for all cultures and nations.

Real taboos are not abusing children, not engaging in incestual relationships, not practising slavery, not allowing children to work like an adult etc, not state legislated murder, (eg, Stalin and Hitler). The reason why I say this is that I've been commented on from another poster which made me think. I said in another thread that I (a male) have been wearing support hosiery for leg and circulation problems. In relation to psychology, another poster said that this was "not breaking any societal taboo". However, this poster added, that if I wore any form of hosiery, tights etc "for fun", (hey, you never got back to me what you meant by that and I'm still confused!), then psychology could investigate that, as it was "breaking a societal taboo".

That made me think. What is the difference between unconventional and taboo? Are the 2 the same or different? To clarify, I don't go running around in hose "for fun". However, I came to the conclusion, that even if a male did wear for the heck of wearing, that is not a legitimate "taboo". It is merely unconventional and unorthodox, relative to the society around him. How can it be a real "taboo" when men wore stockings centuries ago? So you're telling me that something is "taboo" based on other people only, and that can change and shift in different times and from culture to culture?

There is "unconventional" and there is "taboo". Don't confuse the 2.

You may call it a taboo, but just because you say it doesn't make it so. I've recently been apologised to from another poster on CF for personally attacking me for my affiliation with Black Sabbath, in my username, avatar and signature. If I listened to everyone else, I'd have to throw away all my Sabbath cds, let alone change my name etc. Why should I change based on the ideas of others? Black Sabbath is "taboo" for some other Christians, but that doesn't mean it's actually taboo.

Conversely, all manner of evil can be considered "normal" or "acceptable" or "appropriate" just because it is practised in the rest of society. Was rounding up Jews and putting them in the concentration camps "taboo" in Nazi Germany? No! Why? Because of the rest of "society". Can you not see how all this classification of something as either taboo or acceptable is ridiculous, based on the society around you?


These imaginary "taboos" I laugh at. If something is a real taboo, it will not change in any time in human history or from culture to culture. It will either be "taboo" always or never. A real taboo is something that harms someone else or yourself.

I saw this documentary once on some radical Islamic ritual, (the name of it escapes me now), and I found it really horrific. People were cutting their foreheads until they became dizzy, and even children were being involved. To that society, this is praisworthy, and to the rest of us, it is taboo. Who is right? Can something be taboo in one culture and not in another. I don't personally think so, it's either acceptable or taboo-period. And to me, if it infringes on the rights of others, if it harms yourself or others, then it's taboo. Any other practice that is not doing these things but is not common is merely unconventional and unorthodox.

What do others think?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Laugh at, no. Pity, perhaps. I'm naturally detached, but someone running around naked would shock me. We're all victims of something inevitable. Though you speak of real taboos. That is interesting.

 

[plmarquette]

.....BOO...

 

[BlackSabb]

.....BOO...

Hahahah, that brings back memories. I remember Tab in the 70's. Yeah okay, that is pretty well "taboo".

 

[geekgirlkelli]

I hear and understand what you're saying. But even I think certain things are taboo. Like the fact that a guy shouldn't parade around in a miniskirt and fishnets. Amazing huh?

 

[BlackSabb]

I hear and understand what you're saying. But even I think certain things are taboo. Like the fact that a guy shouldn't parade around in a miniskirt and fishnets. Amazing huh?

Hahaha. Yeah, not my look either. This however shows what is wrong with the word "taboo". It conjures up images of depravity and sordidness. People automatically think of something incestual or fetish or transgendered or outrageous etc. And not only that, people automatically think of "parading" something of a depraved nature in front of other people. This is what is associated with "taboo".

It is perfectly normal for people to be uncomfortable with things that are not the "norm" in society. For eg, if you were walking down the street and you saw someone pushing this, you'd think nothing of this:

Now, what sort of reaction do you think people would give if they saw someone pushing this down the street?

Every person who walked past this would give off some sort of reaction. And many would think that the person pushing this pram was off their tree! Yet, this is not immoral, unkind, cruel, kinky, sordid etc. It's just different.

And I would think this is odd too, don't get me wrong. We are used to seeing what we are used to seeing, and anything that is different we find challenging, disturbing, confronting etc.

So, geekgirlkelli, you wouldn't like to see a guy in fishnet and miniskirt around out in the public, and I understand that fully. I'd think that was odd too. I have about as much interest in crossdressing as I have in radical Islam. So I can understand anyone who says they are uncomfortable with anything they're not used to seeing.

However, my beef is with the idea of breaking "society's taboos" in private. This is what my thread is all about. As I said before in the "psychology" thread, I have problems with legs and circulation and wear some tights for it, at the reccomendation of my wife. Another poster decided that he would give me permission for that, (oh, thank you so much sir) but sternly warned me that if I "wore for fun", (and I still don't know what that means), that I am breaking society's taboo, and that psychology would be useful. Now, let me clarify. I don't "wear for fun", but for the sake of argument, lets' say that I did.

So, this is my question. Do you break society's taboos when you do something in private?? I'm not stupid. I don't go around wearing tights out in the public with legs exposed, say under shorts. I also have cats. I wouldn't put a couple of my cats in a pram for a bit of fun and push them around the streets, looking like a totally moron. In the same way, I wouldn't run around with tights showing out in public. And the same wife that suggested and bought me them would obviously expect me to have common sense and not wear them for all to see. That goes without saying.

But, are things that we do in private, or things we wear underneath that are unconventional and are hidden from others, "breaking society's taboos?" Are we obligated to obey all the norms and social protocols in private? Do you really go against society when you do something that is unconventional in your own privacy?

I find that notion absolutely ridiculous. That the rest of society dictates to you what you do even in the privacy of your own home/body, even when nobody sees. Like I said, I'm talking about things that do not involve hurting or harming other people. As I said before, rape is a true taboo because it violates another person's right. But the notion that I am obligated to follow the rest of the society around me, one that changes over time and from country to country, even in the privacy of my own home, is absurd. And the notion that I am some sort of societal law breaker if I dare do something unconventional is to me laughable. I currently am breaking a religious taboo by being into Black Sabbath, as very few religious people give approval to that band.

And that is a good example. I've had Christians tell me that I should stop listening to Sabbath, even though I listen to it in my own home or car. I never put Sabbath on in the car if I'm travelling with someone else, or if someone is in my home. And yet, I'm engaging in a taboo by listening to a band, though it doesn't affect anyone else. Christians tell me it's just wrong, regardless of the fact that I don't expose them or their children to it.

If I had a family over my home with a couple of kids, I might indeed put a couple of my cats in a pram and push it around! I'm sure some young kids would think that was hilarious. I'd never do that out in the street though. See the difference? Or dress up in some medieval costume with tights showing for a fancy dress costume. Again, how can something truly be "taboo" when it changes? It's okay for a party, but not in the streets, it's okay in this period of history but not today, it's okay in this country but not that one, etc.

I personally found the suggestion very offensive that something if I chose to do in private is "taboo". I'm a little take aback by it, as I'm so used to this kind of preaching and morality from my Christian upbringing, but didn't expect to hear the same thing in a context outside of religion. I have personally found Christianity to be very difficult, with endless rules and regulations, and things that are wrong just for the sake of being wrong, regadless of whether they involve others or not, or out in the public or in private.

Now, I'm hearing for the first time the same thing but in a non religious context. The only difference is that "society" is in place of God, and "taboo" is in place of sin. But all the same conditions apply. You must at all times adhere to the rules of society, whether seen or unseen, whether heard or silent, whether in public or in private. And if you don't, even in the privacy of your own home or the context of your own body, you're breaking a "taboo", just like in religion, except that it's called "sin".

I'm offended by that because I don't want anything waving a big stick at me-whether society, religion, the cosmos, karma etc. I'm personally tired of being dictated to on how to think, what to feel, what to believe, how to behave etc. And I'm especially sick to death of being reprimanded even on my life in private. The type of music I listen to, the type of car I drive (V8-politically incorrect) etc. I"m offended that I have to obey some master even in the privacy of my own home and shocked to find out that there are many masters, be it religion, society, consicousness, "decency", morality, the universe, humanity, natural law etc. I'm tired of someone wielding a big stick over me, even in private, even in my thoughts. I don't know, am I the only one who feels like this?

I want the right to do something or not do somethig based on ME. No one else. Do others want that? No, I don't wear tights for "fun". No, I don't put my cats in a pram and push them around. They are not my thing. But neither is baseball or gambling. But, whether I play the pokies or not, or buy a pram to put some cats in or not, I want to decide whether to do that or not. If I do want to do that or anything else, then I'll do it, and if I don't want to do it, I wont'. Not "society" or anything else.

So, can we break "society's taboos" in our own home and in privacy?

 

[QuakerOats]

I see nothing wrong with challenging many of society's taboos in private, or in public. If men want to wear hosiery (for whatever reason), or parade around in mini-skirts, more power to them. I honestly don't find it odd at all, in fact, it makes me smile when someone has that kind of courage.

 

[BlackSabb]

I see nothing wrong with challenging many of society's taboos in private, or in public. If men want to wear hosiery (for whatever reason), or parade around in mini-skirts, more power to them. I honestly don't find it odd at all, in fact, it makes me smile when someone has that kind of courage.

Well, you obviously don't impose any sort of morality or authority on others. I'd agree with you halfway. Going against the norm in public is not wise. But in your own home, the only "norms" should be dictated by whether you harm someone or not.

 

[QuakerOats]

Going against the norm in public is not wise.

I'll agree with you that in some areas, going against the 'norm' is probably (undoubtedly?) a bad idea if you're not looking for a fight, or something of the like. However, my thought process is more along the line of 'taboos are generally nonsensical,' so we should challenge them when and where we can, within reason. I don't mind attracting a bit of attention when I go out. Not because I'm vain (no really lol), but because I like to get people thinking. I believe actions are the better part of it, but I'm a sucker for shirts with slogans and sayings on them.

 

[BlackSabb]

I'll agree with you that in some areas, going against the 'norm' is probably (undoubtedly?) a bad idea if you're not looking for a fight, or something of the like. However, my thought process is more along the line of 'taboos are generally nonsensical,' so we should challenge them when and where we can, within reason. I don't mind attracting a bit of attention when I go out. Not because I'm vain (no really lol), but because I like to get people thinking. I believe actions are the better part of it, but I'm a sucker for shirts with slogans and sayings on them.

That is spot on when you say taboos are "nonsensical". As I said before, who makes all these rules anyway? The idea that something is wrong because of nothing else but "society" is absurd to the extreme.

It's even worse than religion. At least religion is based on the concept of an all powerful and flawless God, from whom you derive moral guidelines. But when people say that behaviours and attitudes should be obeyed from a bunch of other flawed people (society) -well how ridiculous is that. I don't obey society, if other people want to be weak and grovel to the demands of others, so be it. "Not this little black duck", as Daffy used to say.

 

[QuakerOats]

I agree completely. Sometimes I look at society and see all its taboos, and I feel like it's just one big High School (cliques, you know).

 

[BlackSabb]

I agree completely. Sometimes I look at society and see all its taboos, and I feel like it's just one big High School (cliques, you know).

Very much so. I was just so enraged that someone else was giving me terms and conditions on when it was appropriate for me to wear some tights or not. It was nobody's business, but I said it publicly as I am not ashamed. If you've ever driven into a car and nearly crashed because you cramped up, you wouldn't think twice about doing anything to prevent it. I certainly don't want others dictating to me what even I can wear in private.

 

[Catherineanne]

Hey everyone. I just wanted to know what you thought of the "taboos of society". How much are you dictated by what the rest of society does?

What do others think?

I think this is a huge area for discussion.

To begin with we need to remember that people are gregarious, and tribal. You get one tribe one side of the mountain, and one side the other. It is important for each to know who 'belongs' to which, and who does not. So each tribe sets up its own set of behaviours, to make this easy. The tribe speaks the same, dresses the same, behaves the same. This way, any stranger passing through is immediately identified, and, depending whether it is a time of peace or war, either welcomed or killed.

And with this tribalism comes magic. Swear words have the exact same quality as magic words have. They actually do not have the power to shock, but we ascribe that power to them, through our cultural values. Swearing in Chinese leaves us unmoved, unless we are Chinese. Swearing in English has rather more of an effect. We give power to swear words, and this power is magical power.

In relation to clothing, again, pretty well all of us conform to the broad mores of our culture, because that is what people do. On occasion we might step outside the broader cultural norm we are in, and into a narrower one, as when someone with Scottish ancestry, who has never actually been to Scotland, chooses to wear a kilt for his wedding day, while his bride wears a long dress for the only time in her life.

We have a lot of freedom for self expression within the cultural norm. Other cultures have much less freedom. But when we get dressed, or behave in a particular way, we are identifying who we think we are, and where we belong.

Even the most solitary and self assured of us needs to belong somewhere, to someone.

We come here, as members of the Christian 'tribe'. Then other members, with their own idea of what Christians look like, take one look and say, you don't belong. Part of the value of our being here is to break down our preconceptions of what a Christian should look like, or dress like, or what music he or she should listen to. All are welcome at the feast of the Lamb.

 

[BlackSabb]

Even the most solitary and self assured of us needs to belong somewhere, to someone.

We come here, as members of the Christian 'tribe'. Then other members, with their own idea of what Christians look like, take one look and say, you don't belong. Part of the value of our being here is to break down our preconceptions of what a Christian should look like, or dress like, or what music he or she should listen to. All are welcome at the feast of the Lamb.

Well put. I've never really belonged into anyone's group. I've had difficulties with my own family, I wasn't the popular one at school and even in church, I realied that I didn't really belong-I merely attended an institution. Just like university.

It's great when people can belong somewhere. Some of us are just garbage apparently, thrown out by everyone.

 

[Catherineanne]

Some of us are just garbage apparently, thrown out by everyone.

Not quite everyone. If Christ were around, he would come to our house for dinner. However, he would not bother bringing a bottle, he would just reach for the water jug.

 

[BlackSabb]

Not quite everyone. If Christ were around, he would come to our house for dinner. However, he would not bother bringing a bottle, he would just reach for the water jug.

Hahaha.

 

[geekgirlkelli]

Wow, this certainly is an interesting thread.

I agree with much of what you and QO have said. IMO people have no business nosing into what you do in private. Now in public I agree, that there are certain things one shouldn't do, not because they're necessarily wrong, but for the reasons already stated; that people can get freaked out or offended. If you're sensitive or have a hard time dealing with ridicule, I don't suggest going out wearing a miniskirt or tights if you're a guy.

I learned a lot about people's reactions to things that are different over the last two years. I spent my entire life up until that point trying to fit in and not really be noticed, and in fact went out of my way to not give the appearance of anything less than masculine (though I didn't do so very successfully much of the time). But then when I finally made the decision to transition I just wanted to be "normal" right away. I wore a few things I could never really get away with, like the outfit I have on in my avatar pic. I look pretty good in that outfit now, but a year ago most people would have said to themselves "Eww!" I've changed a LOT even in just the last year, amazingly so. Now instead of "Eww!" I get guys checking me out and hitting on me.

Do I believe that people should just be free to do, wear and be who they want? Heck yeah. But there are, admittedly, some things I don't even want to see. It would be nice if we as a society would just bend to allow for people to have more expressive freedom, but unfortunately we're not there yet, so if you want to blur the lines you have to be willing to take the heat.

It's like so many transwomen I know who complain they don't pass well and get read. And I tell them they have to make a decision: they either need to make changes to themselves, whether it be voice training, waiting for hormones to change them more or getting feminization surgery, wearing different clothes, wearing their makeup different, etc. or they have to accept the fact that people are going to stare, call them sir, make the occasional nasty comment and such. It's just the way it is, and you can take that and apply it to pushing buggies with cats (which actually sounds like fun to me lol) guys wearing tights (go for it) or whatever.

 

[JustBoo]

Wow, this certainly is an interesting thread.

I agree with much of what you and QO have said. IMO people have no business nosing into what you do in private. Now in public I agree, that there are certain things one shouldn't do, not because they're necessarily wrong, but for the reasons already stated; that people can get freaked out or offended. If you're sensitive or have a hard time dealing with ridicule, I don't suggest going out wearing a miniskirt or tights if you're a guy.

I learned a lot about people's reactions to things that are different over the last two years. I spent my entire life up until that point trying to fit in and not really be noticed, and in fact went out of my way to not give the appearance of anything less than masculine (though I didn't do so very successfully much of the time). But then when I finally made the decision to transition I just wanted to be "normal" right away. I wore a few things I could never really get away with, like the outfit I have on in my avatar pic. I look pretty good in that outfit now, but a year ago most people would have said to themselves "Eww!" I've changed a LOT even in just the last year, amazingly so. Now instead of "Eww!" I get guys checking me out and hitting on me.

Do I believe that people should just be free to do, wear and be who they want? Heck yeah. But there are, admittedly, some things I don't even want to see. It would be nice if we as a society would just bend to allow for people to have more expressive freedom, but unfortunately we're not there yet, so if you want to blur the lines you have to be willing to take the heat.

It's like so many transwomen I know who complain they don't pass well and get read. And I tell them they have to make a decision: they either need to make changes to themselves, whether it be voice training, waiting for hormones to change them more or getting feminization surgery, wearing different clothes, wearing their makeup different, etc. or they have to accept the fact that people are going to stare, call them sir, make the occasional nasty comment and such. It's just the way it is, and you can take that and apply it to pushing buggies with cats (which actually sounds like fun to me lol) guys wearing tights (go for it) or whatever.

I don't think I agree that trans people or anyone who is ' different' should just ' accept' that they'll get stares , nasty comments or rudeness. I think they should be aware of it but not accept it. Should women have ' just accepted' that they couldn't vote /work outside the home / own property / e.t.c.? Should African American's have ' just accepted' that they would be slaves or more recently that they'll be discriminated against and be treated as less then fully human? I think knowing and building defenses against such issues is fine but if something is WRONG ( which staring , rudeness and nastiness ARE) then we should NOT accept it. We may or may not be able to do something speciic in each situation but we don't have to resign ourselves to it , we can fight the attitudes , we can rally and protest and discuss and pray and write letters and make speeches on street corners!!! I'm an idealist . . but I really beleive in the power of one person to start a revolution , imagine what many people could do? I think those in superiour positions count on the apathy of the minorities to keep them in check . .don't be part of it!

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

I don't think I agree that trans people or anyone who is ' different' should just ' accept' that they'll get stares , nasty comments or rudeness.

I think there are two issues here. Civil rights can be resolved with antidiscrimination laws. You could even legislate against public rudeness and verbal assults to one's basic human dignity. However, you cannot pass a law that changes society's innate notions of what is aesthetically pleasing, especially when it comes to feminine beauty. Such things seem to be hard wired into the brain. Unfortunately, it's true that a stare, even from curiosity, can be just as hurtful as a nasty comment. Accepting something different is one thing. It's another to pretend something is attractive in a cultural sense when it really isn't. You can expect people to do the former, but not the latter. Until humanity learns to associate gender with the invisible soul rather than the visible body, Kel is right regarding transwomen needing to make a decision either to change themselves or learn to expect negative reactions and stop complaining. The problem is that ideally, to release society from rigid conceptions of feminine beauty and masculine handsomeness, you would have to make everyone accept adrogyny as the norm. Even then I'm sure the human brain would develop criteria for determining what constitutes an attractive or unattractive androgyne.

 

[Catherineanne]

However, you cannot pass a law that changes society's innate notions of what is aesthetically pleasing, especially when it comes to feminine beauty. Such things seem to be hard wired into the brain.

You would think so, but actually this is not the case. Up until the 1950s a voluptuous woman, such as Marilyn Monroe, was considered the height of beauty, and a thin woman was regarded as unattractive. Since the 1960s and models like Twiggy this has reversed, and we are still struggling to gain a sense of proportion and move away from women as skeletal figures.

The reason is simple; in times of famine or hardship, there is no virtue in being thin, and those who are well fed are going to be envied and emulated if at all possible. In times of overfeeding and gluttony, where everyone is large, the thin person becomes the one to aspire to. Such is the insanity of our world.

So the idea of what constitutes female beauty does change with our culture, and can change again.