Life

[Van]

What is life and what is the smallest unit of life? Is a virus "alive" Is the smallest unit of "life" irreducibly complex? Could life come from non-life by happenstance, or does the occurrence require a supernatural organizing force.

What is the TE view?

 

[shernren]

Depends on how you define life. I don't think you'll find any one TE view, by the way. I personally happen to think God threw in a miraculous spark somewhere but that's only because I'm too lazy to figure out if He did it by fiat or by natural process (I see very little theological difference either way).

 

[Assyrian]

Personally I think people will look back and recognise computer viruses as a form of life.

 

[Van]

Not to put too fine a point on it but one of the questions I asked was "what is life."

A TE just walked past my area, and being curious about the lack of response, I asked her "is it ignorance or apathy?" She replied, "I do not know and I do not care."

 

[Chesterton]

Something related to the OP: Can life evolve into non-life? Could a population of bacteria evolve into self-replicating molecules?

 

[gluadys]

Could life come from non-life by happenstance, or does the occurrence require a supernatural organizing force.

This is a false dichotomy. You are leaving out the possibility that life could arise from non-life through natural processes created with that capability: hence, natural but not happenstance. Natural means, but by God's creativity and will.

 

[Chesterton]

I think that natural=happenstance, if not always, at least for the purpose of this discussion. If natural processes were created with a capability, we might assume the utilization of the capability was intended by supernatural providence. But even if not, I don’t see how you can call the processes “natural”.

 

[juvenissun]

What is life and what is the smallest unit of life? Is a virus "alive" Is the smallest unit of "life" irreducibly complex? Could life come from non-life by happenstance, or does the occurrence require a supernatural organizing force.

What is the TE view?

A Biblical answer: A life must be supported by a media functions like our blood. To me, it means some circulating fluid carrying material in and out the life.

According to this definition, vegetation is NOT a life.

 

[gluadys]

A Biblical answer: A life must be supported by a media functions like our blood. To me, it means some circulating fluid carrying material in and out the life.

According to this definition, vegetation is NOT a life.

Why does sap not qualify as a circulating fluid carrying material in and out of vegetative life?

 

[gluadys]

I think that natural=happenstance, if not always, at least for the purpose of this discussion. If natural processes were created with a capability, we might assume the utilization of the capability was intended by supernatural providence. But even if not, I don’t see how you can call the processes “natural”.

Again, I think we are dealing with definition. Perhaps, since God is a supernatural being, you tend to define all that God does as supernatural.


I would not say that everything God does is supernatural. When a seed sprouts and matures into a plant, it follows a pattern of growth that was created and is sustained by divine providence. But it is not what we would ordinarily call a supernatural event. Nor is it what we would call a happenstance event. Rather it is an event of the natural order.

That the pattern of growth from seed to mature plant was intended by a supernatural creator is not IMO a reason to call it a supernatural process. I don't see how you can call it anything other than natural. Yet it is far from happenstance.

 

[shernren]

Personally I think people will look back and recognise computer viruses as a form of life.

And the ballooning teenagers slouched at their computers eyes glued to the screen all day long, as non-life. ^^

 

[Sphinx777]

What is life and what is the smallest unit of life? Is a virus "alive" Is the smallest unit of "life" irreducibly complex? Could life come from non-life by happenstance, or does the occurrence require a supernatural organizing force.

What is the TE view?

Life is a state that distinguishes organisms from non-living objects, such as non-life, and dead organisms. Living organisms are capable of growth and reproduction, some can communicate and many can adapt to their environment through changes originating internally. A physical characteristic of life is that it feeds on negative entropy. In more detail, according to physicists such as John Bernal, Erwin Schrodinger, Eugene Wigner, and John Avery, life is a member of the class of phenomena which are open or continuous systems able to decrease their internal entropy at the expense of substances or free energy taken in from the environment and subsequently rejected in a degraded form.

An entity with the above properties is considered to be a living organism, that is an organism that is alive hence can be called a life form. However, not every definition of life considers all of these properties to be essential. For example, the capacity for descent with modification is often taken as the only essential property of life. This definition notably includes viruses, which do not qualify under narrower definitions as they are acellular and do not metabolize. Also, individual members of a species may not meet all the criteria, but are still considered alive, such as members of a reproducing species who are rendered unable to reproduce, or individuals in comas who are unable to respond to stimuli.

A diverse array of living organisms can be found in the biosphere on Earth. Properties common to these organisms—plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea and bacteria—are a carbon- and water-based cellular form with complex organization and heritable genetic information. They undergo metabolism, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt to their environment in successive generations. So far, there is no evidence of extraterrestrial life.

 

[juvenissun]

Why does sap not qualify as a circulating fluid carrying material in and out of vegetative life?

It is not "circulating". The whole thing gets in and goes out.

 

[juvenissun]

Life is a state that distinguishes organisms from non-living objects, such as non-life, and dead organisms. Living organisms are capable of growth and reproduction,

Life needs to reproduce because we assume that a life will die. So, to live (+activities) and to reproduce are consequences, not the essences of a life.

If a life does not die, then it does not have to reproduce and is still a life. So, in the Heaven, we are still lives. But I don't know how would physiology work up there. We may need a new definition of life in the Heaven.

 

[Assyrian]

I like Dr McCoy's "It's life Jim but not as we know it".

With sap, I know it is powered by capillary action and transpiration, water come in their roots and evaporates through the leaves, but aren't the sugars the leaves produce transported around the plant too?

Cytoplasm also circulates.

 

[gluadys]

It is not "circulating". The whole thing gets in and goes out.

Not circulating? How so? It moves through the plant. It carries water and nutrients from one place to another. How is this not circulating?

 

[juvenissun]

Not circulating? How so? It moves through the plant. It carries water and nutrients from one place to another. How is this not circulating?

The water does not flow "backward" or "return" (to somewhere in plants).

Some simple lives have one circulation system. We have several. The blood is the most important one. The Lord says that it is where the life is.

To Assyrians (I accidently erased my reply to you):

Cell is interesting. I would say it has a sort of "blood". But I am not sure if plant cells produce any waste like animal cells do. I think what comes out of a plant system are water vapor and either O2 or CO2. Anything else? May be a little bit something from the roots to make them drill into rocks.

Overall, a plant takes in a lot of ions, but they do not come out. Very strange. And a fully grown tree just sits there for years and maintained the same.

Oh... I got it. It is in the leaf system... But anyway, it is not a circulation system either.

-----------

Hey, see, I got my avatar eventually. And it shows the circulation.

 

[Mallon]

I'm actually more curious to know what the YEC definition of life is, given that they do not consider plants, and some do not consider even non-vertebrate organisms, to be alive. If any YECs are reading this, please do shed some light on this.

 

[Van]

Apparently, TE's are know nothings that simply ask questions. I ask for a TE view, and the response is "What is the YEC view!"

This is the second thread where I have simply asked for TE's to state their views, and have been stonewalled. Obviously a seed does not sprout by happenstance, it is following its program. Did the first form of life get its "program" by happenstance or by supernatural intervention? A simply question. But do I get an answer? Nope. Apparently TE's not only do not accept Genesis, they do not accept the do unto others as you would have them do unto you part either. I asked an open ended question, not a "trap" question designed to put whoever answers in a bad light, yet the response is as if I did. Go figure.

 

[Melethiel]

Cell is interesting. I would say it has a sort of "blood". But I am not sure if plant cells produce any waste like animal cells do. I think what comes out of a plant system are water vapor and either O2 or CO2. Anything else? May be a little bit something from the roots to make them drill into rocks.

Sure they do. Plant cells have mitochondria and undergo cellular respiration the same way animal cells do, and produce the same waste products.

(And that's highly simplified. I'm sure you know that most cells in an organism are very specialized.)