Biblical support for gay sex? A simple question

[Dogbean]

There is no proof. But I have FAITH.

How did you choose Christianity over say, Islam, or Hinduism, or Buddhism?

​

 

[EnemyPartyII]

How did you choose Christianity over say, Islam, or Hinduism, or Buddhism?​

Probably the same way you did. I was born into a Christian culture and brought up as a Christian, and then, when I was old enough to think about such things for myself, I found that it was Christ's teachings that spoke to me the most out of the several religions I have studied.

How about you? Have you ever seriously studied the tennets of Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism? (although Budhism is, of course, more a philosophy than a religion, indeed, I believe it is possible to be a Christian and a Budhist practitioner at the same time, althout I'm not one)

 

[Dogbean]

[quote=EnemyPartyII;48605240]Probably the same way you did. I was born into a Christian culture and brought up as a Christian, and then, when I was old enough to think about such things for myself, I found that it was Christ's teachings that spoke to me the most out of the several religions I have studied.

How about you? Have you ever seriously studied the tennets of Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism? (although Budhism is, of course, more a philosophy than a religion, indeed, I believe it is possible to be a Christian and a Budhist practitioner at the same time, althout I'm not one)[/quote]
I studied them enough to come to the conclusion that Christianity makes the most sense in the big scheme of things. But I believe that if you accept God's Word, you don't get to pick and choose. See the first verse in my signature.

Did you know that in Iran, homosexuals are executed? Did you know the Taliban buries them alive? Did that have anything to do with your decision?

Christianity has become so watered down over the years that many sects present it as a feel good religion. I don't endorse the brutal execution of gays but I have studied the Word enough to know that God does not approve of it.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

But I believe that if you accept God's Word, you don't get to pick and choose. See the first verse in my signature.

Yeah, but
a. Paul doesn't say that all scripture is "God's Word"
b. But even if he did, isn't believing Paul's writings are "God's word" because Paul says that all scripture is "God's word" kind of circular? Like, if I said my writings were God's word, and all God's word is inerrant, isn't the same logical break applicable?

Did you know that in Iran, homosexuals are executed? Did you know the Taliban buries them alive? Did that have anything to do with your decision?

No, that had nothing to do with my decision, not least because I don't live in Iran or Afghanistan.

Christianity has become so watered down over the years that many sects present it as a feel good religion. I don't endorse the brutal execution of gays but I have studied the Word enough to know that God does not approve of it.

And yet you can't explain WHY God wouldn't approve of it.

With the best will in the world, my gut reaction is to assume that you already had a problem with homosexuality, and went coming the scriptures to find verses to justify your pre-existing beliefs, rather than coming to the scriptures as a blank slate, and determining for yourself that homosexuality was against God's will.

I could of course be wrong, but thats the usual pattern

 

[KCKID]

[quote=EnemyPartyII;48605240]Probably the same way you did. I was born into a Christian culture and brought up as a Christian, and then, when I was old enough to think about such things for myself, I found that it was Christ's teachings that spoke to me the most out of the several religions I have studied.

How about you? Have you ever seriously studied the tennets of Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism? (although Budhism is, of course, more a philosophy than a religion, indeed, I believe it is possible to be a Christian and a Budhist practitioner at the same time, althout I'm not one)

I studied them enough to come to the conclusion that Christianity makes the most sense in the big scheme of things. But I believe that if you accept God's Word, you don't get to pick and choose. See the first verse in my signature.

The authority of Scripture:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 -- All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/quote]

You do know, don't you, that the above scripture is referring to the OLD Testament and NOT the NEW? I don't know how many Christians today cling to the OT teachings. Christians all but ignore the OT (with the exception of the alleged 'homosexual' texts, of course ) because they're supposed to be under some new covenant. So, I don't know how the above scripture fits into the grand scheme of things. This is yet another confusing aspect of Christianity.

Did you know that in Iran, homosexuals are executed? Did you know the Taliban buries them alive? Did that have anything to do with your decision?

But again, that's 'religion' and another example of how 'religion' can lead to irrational thinking and similar behavior. You DO realize that doing such things to others is evil, don't you? Christian dogmatism isn't so much different from those of the above who allow their belief system to drive them to such cruel extremes. Instead, THEY often just scream out scriptures of condemnation but let God do the nasty work.

Christianity has become so watered down over the years that many sects present it as a feel good religion. I don't endorse the brutal execution of gays but I have studied the Word enough to know that God does not approve of it.

Christianity may well have been watered down but this has nothing to do with the issue of homosexuality. If anything one of the 'watered down' tenets of Christianity is its lax attitude toward Christian divorce and remarriage. Homosexuality pales by comparison. And, remember ...we're constantly being reminded that Christians are now under a 'new covenant of grace'.* Some Christian denominations seem to take the view that people (Christians) can pretty well live like the devil and still be 'okay' because it's a case of 'once saved, always saved'.

* Not true, of course. People were saved by grace from the very beginning.

 

[KCKID]

It's amazing how people just pick and choose the pleasant things to believe and reject the tougher parts of it because they think it's cruel and barbaric.

Honestly now, Tackleberry ...do you believe that everlasting torment in a place called hell is cruel and barbaric? If you should you say 'no', just let me ask you the same question in regard to the attrocities that were committed under the watch of Adolph Hitler's Third Reich. Do you believe that these attrocities were cruel and barbaric? If 'yes', then what is the difference?

Like people are more moral than God, and need to correct His Word to make it not so tough to believe. Simply amazing ...

Your above remark is in regard to 'God's torture chamber for the lost'. You believe that it's 'simply amazing' that some would have the audacity to believe that God is not a cruel tyrant? Since I consider myself a fairly decent human being, it's my task to correct any misinterpretations of 'God's word' that leads to God appearing to being worse than Adoloph Hitler and his cronies.

I could never bring myself to belong to a Christian denomination that taught such a thing as 'eternal torment' because that is a cruel lie. The Seventh-day Adventist Church (and more and more denominations these days) has pulled those texts apart that, on the surface, appear to speak of a literal eternal torment. They have studied them scripture for scripture and have, I believe, arrived at the scriptural truth of the matter which would involve the 'total annihilation' of the lost.

Some other Christian groups, of course, believe that all will be saved eventually. I don't necessarily believe that one but I'd like it to be true. It would truly prove that God is indeed a loving God!

 

[RMDY]

You know? I WOULD call the 10 commandments immoral, IF looked at the way you are looking at them.

It IS immoral to be TOLD what is evil, and just expected to swallow it, no questions asked.

IMHO, genuinely moral behaviour comes from understanding and empathy. The 10 commandments are a GUIDE to help us achieve moral behaviour, not an absolute, eternal, objective commandment that applys to every situation cos "God sez!".

And I'm a devout Christian.

Oh wow! You must believe the Holy Spirit is immoral because He convicts sin in this world.

 

[RMDY]

Oh by the way EnemyPartyII, go read a book called Kingdom Of The Cults before you give me a lesson about other religions.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Oh wow! You must believe the Holy Spirit is immoral because He convicts sin in this world.

ORLY?

Hmm... what does "the Holy Spirit convicts sin" actually MEAN though?

is it our conscience that tells us when we sin, or some arbitrary set of out of context rules?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Oh by the way EnemyPartyII, go read a book called Kingdom Of The Cults before you give me a lesson about other religions.

Why?

Because no one else has anything to teach you?

Because this book answers ALL questions about religions other than your own, and no new information will be tolerated?

Call me cynical (I almost certainly am) but let me guess... this is a book you have read, that told you exactly what you wanted to hear, namely, that all other religions are delusional, non-sensical pipedreams, except your own, which is firmly rooted in unimpeachable, empirical evidence and logic.

Am I close?

 

[darkshadow]

Honestly now, Tackleberry ...do you believe that everlasting torment in a place called hell is cruel and barbaric? If you should you say 'no', just let me ask you the same question in regard to the attrocities that were committed under the watch of Adolph Hitler's Third Reich. Do you believe that these attrocities were cruel and barbaric? If 'yes', then what is the difference?

Your above remark is in regard to 'God's torture chamber for the lost'. You believe that it's 'simply amazing' that some would have the audacity to believe that God is not a cruel tyrant? Since I consider myself a fairly decent human being, it's my task to correct any misinterpretations of 'God's word' that leads to God appearing to being worse than Adoloph Hitler and his cronies.

I could never bring myself to belong to a Christian denomination that taught such a thing as 'eternal torment' because that is a cruel lie. The Seventh-day Adventist Church (and more and more denominations these days) has pulled those texts apart that, on the surface, appear to speak of a literal eternal torment. They have studied them scripture for scripture and have, I believe, arrived at the scriptural truth of the matter which would involve the 'total annihilation' of the lost.

Some other Christian groups, of course, believe that all will be saved eventually. I don't necessarily believe that one but I'd like it to be true. It would truly prove that God is indeed a loving God!

You asked me in a related post why I though you was not a "Christian".
I don't know why I said that:
No Hell- Revelation 20:10,15 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfer, where the beast and the false prophets had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.", "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
No new covenant - That is what testament means "New Covenant", and we are no longer under the law, except what Christ has reinstated, which includes the act, not the person, the act of homosexuality. Galations 3:23-25 "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge tolead us to Crist that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Not to mention that the law was for the Jews and not the Gentiles. Christ did however, reinstate most of the law, were we get the terms law of Moses and law of Jesus, on the Sermon on the Mount. Oh and its in Romans 1:26-27 "Because of this, God gave them over, (or let them), to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abondoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received tin themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
You say you are not a "once saved always saved" christian, which I am not either, but then you come across as someone who does not believe in punishment for there actions. You com across also like you do not believe that the Bible is God's Word, or at least parts are not, and no one else but you can understand what the Word says. That is unless we get the divine answer from you. You twist meaning like "homosexuality" to mean "sodomy" and which in the original it does not. Am I an expert on the Word? No, I am not even an amatuer, but I study everyday to get closer. Does that make you smarter or more intouch with God's Word? No. Here is what I say, if someone goes agains God's Word, if they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, who came to this earth to save us by his death and resurrection, and that there is only one true God in the universe, who created all things, then I am sorry you, (a general you not one person), is not a true follower of Christ. Anyone can call themselves "Christian", look at Hollywood, but a true Christ follower will live it. There is my answer and and my opinoin, I do not mean to offend, that is just how you are perceived by me, it may be different with others.
(Note to Mods, this is the answer to a question, and not meant to be offensive)

 

[Andreusz]

Ok, so suppose somebody told you that there is a 0.00001% chance you will burn in agony for eternity if you continue in your sin? Wouldn't you want to cry out to God, ask Him to reveal Himself to you and enter your heart and allow Him to transform your life to eliminate that risk?

Sounds like a good deal to me.

I wouldn't want to worship a god who would subject me to an eternity of horrible torture for not believing in him (when there is no evidence that he exists), for not wanting to worship him (when the Bible shows him to be an arbitrary, petulant, bloodthirsty tyrant), and for having sex with people of my own sex (which doesn't hurt anyone).

 

[Andreusz]

It's amazing how people just pick and choose the pleasant things to believe and reject the tougher parts of it because they think it's cruel and barbaric.

Like people are more moral than God, and need to correct His Word to make it not so tough to believe.

Simply amazing....

If God wants to prove himself moral, he should act morally. 'By their fruits ye shall know them'. The god who countenanced the genocide described in the Book of Joshua is not a god I would want to worship.

 

[Andreusz]

Your very vague about how your calling the bible "deeply immoral". You need to be more specific. Which part of the bible are you talking about?

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Kings, Chronicles ... God constantly shows himself to be very sexist towards women, and he happily countenances the slaughter of people whose only crime is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The New Testament is also awful ... God has condemned everyone to suffer eternal punishmnet for finite sins, but he relents when they torture his son (who is also himself) to death. And St Paul comes across as a revolting bigot (also a woman-hater).

Yes, its immoral to be told what is evil and what isn't!

Seeing that many of the 'sins' listed in Leviticus are purely arbitrary, hurting no-one, I can't really think of the old testament god as a moral force.
And though I've asked many times, no-one can explain to me why God regards homosexuality as a sin, so clearly it was purely an arbitrary decision on his part.

I'll confidentally assert that athiests do not being under authority or being told what to do? Correct?

I can only speak for myself: I don't like being told to do things that make no sense.

 

[darkshadow]

If God wants to prove himself moral, he should act morally. 'By their fruits ye shall know them'. The god who countenanced the genocide described in the Book of Joshua is not a god I would want to worship.

Then don't worship him, no one is telling you to, we are laying out our beliefs and the Word of God as we know it. If you do not believe then you do not believe, but do not expect us as followers of Christ to go, "Wow, he's right because he doesn't have have our faith." and run to you to teach us, and do not ask questions then say, "nope that is not an answer because I don't believe in your religion." I don't believe in your religion, know what that means? Nothing, you have your belief system and we have ours. We are going to answer questions from a Biblical christian point of view, well some will, and you are not. So what, all that means is we all will get no where fast.
Now God does act morally, and is just. He created all of us, and has the right to judge us. He also gave each and everyone of us a way to heaven, its by grace. Grace is a gift, that we did not pay for, Christ paid that price on the cross, and died for your sins, my sins, tackleberru's sins, KCKIDS' sins, John Chapter14's sins, EnemyPartII's sins, everyone else's sins on this forum, and and all the sins of everyone here and to come. I pray that someday you will see that and hope there is time for you to. I know we do not see eye to eye, but that does not mean we are enemies. We are all God's children even those that have ran away from him.
(names used were not used with permission, and hope didn't care were used)

 

[Andreusz]

Christianity says the universe had a beginning and Christ deaths frees people from sin. Which one does science prove more? Christianity! Science and Christianity both affirm the Universe had a beginning, thus proving hinduism and buddhism is nothing more than superstition or a myth.

The physicists' prediction of how the universe will end, and that described in Revelations,a re very different.

Historical evidence also proves christianity to be true. Intelligent design on our planet affirms an intelligent creator, something Christianity teaches. Everything in this universe exists with a cause, something Christianity affirms.

There is considerable evidence against intelligent design, but this is not the appropriate forum to discuss it.

 

[Andreusz]

do not ask questions then say, "nope that is not an answer because I don't believe in your religion." I don't believe in your religion, know what that means?

If you are going to convince me of the correctness of your position, then you will have to argue in a way I can accept. If your position cannot be argued on non-Biblical grounds, then I cannot accept it.

Now God does act morally, and is just.

What exactlly is just about the genocide described in the Book of Joshua?
What exactly is just about proscribing homosexual sex?

 

[darkshadow]

If you are going to convince me of the correctness of your position, then you will have to argue in a way I can accept. If your position cannot be argued on non-Biblical grounds, then I cannot accept it.


What exactlly is just about the genocide described in the Book of Joshua?
What exactly is just about proscribing homosexual sex?

I will not answer your questions for the same reason given before. You are in a christian forum, and want us to play by your rules. An American football team can not go to Europe and say, "No this is not football you have to play it this way." Why should you be allowed to do that to us. Ever here of house rules?
You know what I will answer you, however not as you like, since you are in our house. God had Joshua destroy the people, because they were sacrificing there children to false gods, and were not obeying his law. They were not followers of God, and anyone who is not will meet a similar fate on judgement day by God.
Regarding the proscribing of homosexuality, it does not go along with God's plan for a man to leave his parents and become one with his wife. Wife, female partner of a man. God's plan is for a man and a woman to procreate and to enjoy one another sexually, in the bonds of marriage. Now since you do not believe that God is real, there is no way to have a realistic debate with you. I have a question for you. Why is Atheism the right religion and not Christianity? In other words why should I become an atheist and quit believing in God?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'm a Christian.

I still don't buy Joshua's genocide as being "just".

I still don't buy Biblical slavery as "just".

I don't buy stoning rape victims as "just",

and I don't buy homosexual condemnation as "just", either. I am open to discussion on the point, but to convince me I am mistaken, you'll need to come up with more than "the Bible SEZ!". Because I believe God is INHERENTLY just AND logical, I believe that anything that comes from God will be logical and just too. Therefore, if we detect something that is NOT just and logical, it simply cannot originate from God, no matter the good intentions of the original author.

So, you got a logical, genuinely justifiable reason to condemn homosexual activity, or is you personal interpretation of what the Bible says the entirety of your contention?

 

[darkshadow]

I'm a Christian.

I still don't buy Joshua's genocide as being "just".

I still don't buy Biblical slavery as "just".

I don't buy stoning rape victims as "just",

and I don't buy homosexual condemnation as "just", either. I am open to discussion on the point, but to convince me I am mistaken, you'll need to come up with more than "the Bible SEZ!". Because I believe God is INHERENTLY just AND logical, I believe that anything that comes from God will be logical and just too. Therefore, if we detect something that is NOT just and logical, it simply cannot originate from God, no matter the good intentions of the original author.



So, you got a logical, genuinely justifiable reason to condemn homosexual activity, or is you personal interpretation of what the Bible says the entirety of your contention?

This is getting old I gave you scripture showing no stoning of a rape victim, and huge section on the real slavery meanings, and if you don't want to believe all the Bible, then you are wrong. You can not pick and choose. "The Bible doesn't say what I want it to so its wrong, oh wait this part is ok, wait nope not this part." Yes I do have a reason to condemn it because the "Bible sez so" and if you don't like that answer, who cares!! Let me tell you something else since I am sure to get edited. God is not Mr Spock, so logic has nothing to do with it. The Bible is full of many different types of writings. Poems, songs, lover stories, sexual encounters, alagory, parables, history, and many others. If you don't believe in the truth fine, I don't care its your soul. I as the Lord said, wipe the dust off my shoes of all of ya. To the mods, I would hope this is not edited considering I am standing up for your forum, and my Lord.