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Why have so many american problem with abortion of small americans...but no Problem

PastorJim

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Didn't Jesus himself made it quite clear that those who society shuns as sinners are still as dear to him because they are human beings?

Remember, though, that it was Jesus who instituted the death penalty in the first place. Remember all of the stonings God commanded in the OT?

In addition, Romans tells us that God gives the government the authority to carry out the death penalty.

In addition, when Jesus stood before Pilate, He told Pilate that the only reason Pilate could execute Him is that God gave him that authority.

Remember, in the case of the US, we're not a theocracy, so we don't punish people for sin, but for committing crime.

On that balance, I can't accept the death penalty.

So then, what is your argument against the Bible's teaching on the death penalty? Was Paul wrong to say that God has granted the government the authority to carry out the death penalty? Was God wrong to order the death penalty so frequently in the OT?
 
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PastorJim

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What did Jesus Christ do wrong? He was, after all, a victim of the death penalty.

According to the Jews, He committed blasphemy. According to the Romans, He committed sedition. They believed He was plotting an uprising against the state.

Pilate knew Jesus had not done this but, like all spineless politicians, caved in to a small but vocal minority of his constituency and used the Jews accusations of blasphemy to prosecute Jesus.

Because the Jews did not recognize His as Messiah, they had no way to know that He was not blaspheming, but telling the truth.
 
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Remember, though, that it was Jesus who instituted the death penalty in the first place. Remember all of the stonings God commanded in the OT?

In addition, Romans tells us that God gives the government the authority to carry out the death penalty.

In addition, when Jesus stood before Pilate, He told Pilate that the only reason Pilate could execute Him is that God gave him that authority.

Remember, in the case of the US, we're not a theocracy, so we don't punish people for sin, but for committing crime.

So then, what is your argument against the Bible's teaching on the death penalty? Was Paul wrong to say that God has granted the government the authority to carry out the death penalty? Was God wrong to order the death penalty so frequently in the OT?

Well, as a non-Christian I have obviously placed more emphasis for my reasoning on purely terrestrial reasoning... I think there is enough there to feel that the death penalty is an inadequate form of punishment for purely utilitarian concerns. I'd be interested what you have to say about those, considering, as you say, this is a matter for the City of Man rather than the City of God.

If I wanted to argue from the biblical perspective, I would say that yes, the old testament God is vengeful and punishes people with death. Jesus, however, comes along and gives us a new commandment - a commandment of love.

He then demonstrates what he means by this - he associates with the sinners that society shunned, he forgave them. He told us to find himself in all others, without exception.

Does the fact that God states that the authority of the state comes from him require us to unquestioningly accept all that the state does? I don't believe that to be the case.

The fact that Jesus submitted to the law of the time, and the fact that the law of the land unjustly killed him, is surely evidence of the inadequacies of the death penalty as a punishment and the potential for it to be used by the powerful for their own ends.

Personally, as an agnostic, I don't believe that Jesus is God. I believe in the possibility of the existence of a God, but I have no way of knowing whether it is the Christian God (or what form of Christian God it is), or any other.

Jesus, however, I beleive was a real man, and the message that he preached has been written down. I am therefore happier to argue about the words and actions of Jesus as himself on earth rather than "his" actions in the old testament. When I look at Jesus I see someone who preached a message which was non-violent, a message of love and respect for humanity. I don't see how Jesus, the man whose teachings have been passed down for thousands of years, would support the penalty which, in the act of his own death, is demonstrated to be unjust. I don't see how Jesus would accept that that penalty was just for any person, sinner or not, criminal or not, because in each person he told us to see himself.
 
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allhart

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with abortion of adult americans? Thats something i don´t understand.
Isn´t that bigot to demonstrate against abortion and at the same time to support death penalty?
You can rationalize abortion all you want ,but the reality of it is. That it is still wrong.
 
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oldbetang

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As far as the death penalty goes scripture states in Genesis 9:6 also look at proverbs 28:2

In my view, it is a mistake to try to use scripture to either defend or oppose capital punishment for murderers. The New Testament is silent on the matter.
 
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allhart

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Well, I notice that you don´t even make an attempt at rationalizing your feelings.
It has noting to to do with right or wrong (my feelings) about it. Its still wrong.Two wrongs never add up to one right in my account book.
 
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allhart

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In my view, it is a mistake to try to use scripture to either defend or oppose capital punishment for murderers. The New Testament is silent on the matter.
Matthew 5: 17 Knowledge with out wisdom is futile.
 
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B'alaam

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Perhaps because it should be a given that the death penalty for Joseph Duncan-like murderers is not wrong.
Drop a pencil in normal "earth gravity" and (unless there are outside interfering factors) the pencil will fall at a predictable rate.
*That* is a given.
The "not wrongness" (if you will) of the death penalty is not a given
 
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oldbetang

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Matthew 5: 17 Knowledge with out wisdom is futile.

We can't understand what Christ meant by that statement. You obviously believe that means we are still under the Old Law. The penalty for adultery under Mozaic Law was death by stoning. Yet Christ stepped in and essentially prevented a crowd from stoning an adulteress to death. How do you explain away that obvious contradiction?
 
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allhart

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Drop a pencil in normal "earth gravity" and (unless there are outside interfering factors) the pencil will fall at a predictable rate.
*That* is a given.
The "not wrongness" (if you will) of the death penalty is not a given
Live life with no accountability or penalty. everyone's rights stand in tolerance of error! So every thing that is right or wrong mixes with no absolutes. Chaos rules!
 
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oldbetang

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Drop a pencil in normal "earth gravity" and (unless there are outside interfering factors) the pencil will fall at a predictable rate.
*That* is a given.
The "not wrongness" (if you will) of the death penalty is not a given

Hmmm...raping, torturing, and then murdering a ten year old child is wrong. Is that a given?
 
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allhart

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Hmmm...raping, torturing, and then murdering a ten year old child is wrong. Is that a given?
Yes, and your point. Come on! What is your agenda? What is it that you want to fulfill in your world of feelings of passion or compassion and is there any common ground for society to live by your( RIGHTS ) all the time! Are you holy and righteous or human (full of sin? Or are you so, different than me. Everything is spritual every desision you make ,but you still have a carnal nature and that will be about you and you only in what you can get out of life. To what makes you feel GOOD.Truth hurts.To walk with out pride and giving up rights out of humlity comes from guidenace. Knowledge of right and wrong and of wisdom from the holy of holy GOD. Also the differnce between a christian and a none believer is I am forgiven, but I still have what you have a carnal nature. I look for wisdom from God not my feelings. My freind!
 
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allhart

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We can't understand what Christ meant by that statement. You obviously believe that means we are still under the Old Law. The penalty for adultery under Mozaic Law was death by stoning. Yet Christ stepped in and essentially prevented a crowd from stoning an adulteress to death. How do you explain away that obvious contradiction?
For the law stated both shall be stoned to death not just her.
 
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allhart

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The problem about the law and us is that you or I can't see the reality of anothers heart or disposition towards another human being, but God can. Everything that is good or bad with out God is vain and with out God will add up to nothing. To give up one's life(RIGHTS) is to gain life. To hold on to your life( RIGHTS) to only loose your life. Proverbs 28:2
Live for God in the direction of total righteousness. Then one of the attributes of having a personal relationship with God is a Guilt free conscience.
 
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allhart

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Well, I notice that you don´t even make an attempt at rationalizing your feelings.
So, if get up in the mornin and I don't feel like going to work. Is it O.K. and if do it a couple of days. Do I Rationalize the right and wrong of the matter or do I go with my feelings on the matter. The reality of it is. If you don't work you don't eat. Who said that? God did!!!
 
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