Speak lovingly of Mary

[LittleLambofJesus]

note that Paul deliberately limits the verb, whereas Mary does not

(when Christ refers to Himself as "I am" in this same tense, and the response is to seek to stone Him, He also does not limit the verb; He has in this manner identified Himself as God, the "I am" who adressed Moses).

Perhaps. But in the whole Scheme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, is it really that big of an issue.

I am now starting to harmonize the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation to the NT and OT, finding matching events. Hopefully, I can get the Jews interested in looking into that book instead of it being strictly a Christ-ian thang.

Joel 3:13 Send forth thee a sickle that harvest is ripe. Come ye down, that wine-trough is full, the winevats overflow that much evil of them

Reve 14:15 and another messenger came out out of the Sanctuary crying out in a voice, great, to the one sitting on the cloud: "Send! the sickle of thee and reap! that came the hour to reap/qerison <2325> (5657), that is dried the Harvest/qerismoV <2326> of the land. [Joel 3:13/Matt 13:30]

Matt 13:30 "Suffer ye! to be together-growing to of the Harvest/qerismou <2326> and in the time of the Harvest/qerismou <2326> I shall be declaring to the Harvesters/Reapers/qerismou <2326> 'together-collect the darnel/zizania <2215 and bind ye them! into bundles toward the to burn/kata-kausai <2618> (5658) them. The yet grain together bring into the place of Me'

 

[Thekla]

Perhaps. But in the whole Scheme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, is it really that big of an issue.

actually, yes (especially if you use the LXX ).

For example, if Christ had used a different tense for the verb "I am", there would be no call to stone Him - as He would not be calling Himself God.

With the Corinthian passages, there are additional words (uneeded in English) to limit the verb -- so that the passage in translation takes on a very different 'flavor'; Paul is not being stylistically "wordy", he's being blunt by adding words (the opposite of English).

 

[Rick Otto]

"Parse-Happy".
It's a condition I've seen before.
Everybody stand back & give her some air.

...ok, so now tell me; Could Jesus use the "almighty" tense of "I Am" to answer a question like: "Hey Jesus, aren't you that carpenter from Nazareth?"? Could He then say , "I Am." and everybody 'hear the silent God' part?

 

[Thekla]

Actually, there is more to add per this tense and Mary:

Mary responds in the continuous form to the future tensed statement of Gabriel (rather bold ) [Zachariah is also bold when the conception Of John is announced - and is struck dumb until the naming of John (when Zachariah does act "in agreement" with God's will on the matter)].

When Gabriel states that the child is of God, then she consents.
In one sense, she "tests the spirits" and responds in the affirmative following Gabriel's assurance that she will conceive by the Holy Spirit.

On the first hand, this has the mark of the way God works: He asks, He does not force. In this sense, the conversation between Mary and Gabriel is evidentiary that this is truly of God.

On the second hand, it does more than suggest that Mary's "I do not know a man" is for her a dedication to the will of God (her "calling"); if it is not, then
1. how can she be so bold with Gabriel (test the spirits) and
2. why is she not struck dumb ? (like Zachariah)

In summary (to get back to the continuous sense of the verb) her "yes"
a. does not break her "vow"
b. does not limit the tense of "I know not" (because of the manner of conception) in contrast to Paul's limiting statement.

 

[Thekla]

"Parse-Happy".
It's a condition I've seen before.
Everybody stand back & give her some air.

ya shoulda been quicker with this

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

actually, yes (especially if you use the LXX ).

For example, if Christ had used a different tense for the verb "I am", there would be no call to stone Him - as He would not be calling Himself God.

With the Corinthian passages, there are additional words (uneeded in English) to limit the verb -- so that the passage in translation takes on a very different 'flavor'; Paul is not being stylistically "wordy", he's being blunt by adding words (the opposite of English).

Ok. I think I understand. I think I better bow out of here as I am just not into Mary as much as RCs and Orthodox. Peace.

Exodus 12:23 And YHWH passes/05674 `abar to strike the Egyptians and He sees the blood on the lintel and on two of the jambs and YHWH passes over/06452 pacach the portal and not He shall allow the ruiner/07843 shachath to come to houses of ye to strike. [Luke 21:28/Revelation 9:11]

Reve 9:11 and they are having on them a king, the messenger of the abyss, name to him to-Hebrew, abaddwn <3>, and in the greecian name he is having apolluwn <623>. [Exodus 12:23/Luke 21:28]

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

 

[Rick Otto]

ya shoulda been quicker with this

Howdy mam'. I see your ridin' herd on the heretics tonight, Miss Thekla.
(...he said thinking he looks exactly like John Wayne)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Thekla

actually, yes (especially if you use the LXX ).
​

Don't know if I have ever used the LXX. I prefer going to the Hebrew myself.
The greek word "ginomai" is fascinating. Notice this form of the word "to become" is used in Revelation.
I capitilize all of the I AM as it is shown as 2 seperate greek words.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 8:58 Said to them [*the] Jesus "verily, verily I am saying to ye before Abraham to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), I AM

Textus Rec.) John 8:58 eipen autoiV o ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi

Reve 22:6 And he said to me: "These the Words faithful and true. And [*the] Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) in swiftness. [Revelation 1:1]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is interesting. The Douay-Rheims doesn't have John 8:58
But look how the NKJV translates this word in John 8 and Reve 1

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 8:58 Said to them [*the] Jesus "verily, verily I am saying to ye before Abraham to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), I AM

NKJV) John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

cannot find, try: John 7:59 ( Douay-Rheims )

Revelation 1:1 An-un-covering of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to His bond-servants, which-things is binding to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), in swiftness.

NKJV) Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants -- things which must shortly take place.

 

[MamaZ]

How do you support this? So Christ did not eat because his Father did not do it?

Reading in context is an awesome way to understand.

 

[MamaZ]

My point being that Jesus spoke Aramaic. The Gospels took the semetic(sp?) linguistic conventions of the time and translated them into the Greek.

So which words are purer?

Peace

So you know what language Jesus Spoke? The writers of the NT wrote in Greek as the Holy Spirit moved them what to write.

 

[MamaZ]

non-sequitor.

Argument does not follow the evidence.

Had Jesus had other siblings they would have had to take care of Mary. Regardless if there were there or not. They would have had to come and pick her.

Jesus giving Mary to John shows that there is something wrong with her merriage to Joseph and His other "siblings." were not required to take care of her as per Jewish culture

The two options left are that Mary had an affair, Mary remarried.

Out of the two the only one left to pick is: Mary had an affair, because Jesus had other brothers who are the sons of Joseph.

Peace

Actually Jesus giving Mary to John backs up what He said here..
Mat 12:47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
Mat 12:48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
Mat 12:49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

One must always add to the true meaning of scripture to keep this farcade up about Mary. John was Jesus brother in the Spirit.

 

[MamaZ]

parthenos means pure (your meaning is a subcategory of the overarching meaning)

please see the previous posts re:

verb tense

What does Pure have to do with peretual virgin. For when God looks at us it is not in our sex life but at our heart and one may have a pure heart and still be normally married. For the marriage bed is to be held in honor..

 

[MamaZ]

California Josiah -

1. your particularized use of the term "no-sex" as a translation for parthenos reduces virginity to a matter of flesh only

2. Gabriel tells Mary of a FUTURE event (she will conceive); Mary, then betrothed, responds: "I know not a man" using a verb tense that states a fact which is fact past/present/future (CONTINUOUS)

given the latter, if we are to accept your point we must conclude that either:
1.the Bible is in error
2. Mary lied

which to do propose, or did I miss an option ?

How funny this is. Prophecy is usally for a future event. She was not married and how long was it before she conceived do you know? We know it was before the wedding ceremony. For she at the time was only betrothed to Joseph. Until Jospeh took her for His wife.

 

[MamaZ]

Notice also that Joseph kept her a virgin until Christ was born. No reason to keep her one after. For Christ had been born.

 

[Philothei]

Actually Jesus giving Mary to John backs up what He said here..
Mat 12:47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
Mat 12:48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
Mat 12:49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

One must always add to the true meaning of scripture to keep this farcade up about Mary. John was Jesus brother in the Spirit.

What you are saying actually does not prove at all that Christ had brothers but ONLY "spiritual" brothers... That is according to the logic you present here. For if Christ was calling everyone his brother then we do not know who were his actual siblings and who were his "spiritual". I agree that John was viewed as his "spiritual" brother since we know for sure John was not his actual sibling. But you still believe that if there were "actual" siblings of Christ they would not take care of their mother? In a Jewish society that is highly unlikely. It would be considered a dishonor for the male sons not to take care of their mother and a "stranger" to do so...
That would mean that there was something wrong with Mary.


If you look in Luke 7.11-16 Christ takes pity on the widow whose ONLY son has died and he raises him up.... The evangelist describes that funeral saying:

11Soon afterward, Jesus went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd went along with him. 12As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out—the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her. 13When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, "Don't cry."
14Then he went up and touched the coffin, and those carrying it stood still. He said, "Young man, I say to you, get up!" 15The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.

As he knew that this woman would have been "unprotected" and not taken care as she had no other man in her life to take care of her. That is why "his heart went out to her". He obviously was reminded of his own mother and her situation to follow. It makes perfect sense.

 

[Philothei]

Notice also that Joseph kept her a virgin until Christ was born. No reason to keep her one after. For Christ had been born.

That is according to who? We do not know how much after Virgin Mary had Christ... it could be a year....or so..We have no time frame.

Also no where in the Bible it says that she broke her virginity with Joseph either.

 

[MamaZ]

What you are saying actually does not prove at all that Christ had brothers but ONLY "spiritual" brothers... That is according to the logic you present here. For if Christ was calling everyone his brother then we do not know who were his actual siblings and who were his "spiritual". I agree that John was viewed as his "spiritual" brother since we know for sure John was not his actual sibling. But you still believe that if there were "actual" siblings of Christ they would not take care of their mother? In a Jewish society that is highly unlikely. It would be considered a dishonor for the male sons not to take care of their mother and a "stranger" to do so...
That would mean that there was something wrong with Mary.


If you look in Luke 7.11-16 Christ takes pity on the widow whose ONLY son has died and he raises him up.... The evangelist describes that funeral saying:

As he knew that this woman would have been "unprotected" and not taken care as she had no other man in her life to take care of her. That is why "his heart went out to her". He obviously was reminded of his own mother and her situation to follow. It makes perfect sense.

Ahh the judgment according to the customs of men once again. They also Judged Christ and even wanted Him dead. Did that bother the King o all Kings and Lord of all Lords? Not one bit. He still did as the Father told Him to do not worrying about what men thought or had to say.

 

[MamaZ]

That is according to who? We do not know how much after Virgin Mary had Christ... it could be a year....or so..We have no time frame.

Also no where in the Bible it says that she broke her virginity with Joseph either.

What apparent reason would she need to stay a virgin and still be a married woman? For salvation does not come from Mary but from Christ. So why in all of this farcade may I ask why she would have to even stay a virgin. For even in the marriage bed one can be pure in heart.

 

[Thekla]

Ahh the judgment according to the customs of men once again. They also Judged Christ and even wanted Him dead. Did that bother the King o all Kings and Lord of all Lords? Not one bit. He still did as the Father told Him to do not worrying about what men thought or had to say.

I agree, Christ did not worry about what "men say" of Him; but to force Mary into a harmful situation is different. As in the above post , God asks - He doesn't force.