• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Question about Romans 5

Status
Not open for further replies.

BlackSaab52

Regular Member
Nov 29, 2003
368
17
39
Kentucky
Visit site
✟602.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
How do theistic evolutionists interpret the repeated talk in Romans 5 about one man and one trespass bringing sin into the world. Here's the passage (NIV):

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.



If apes evolved into humans over millions of years, then any sense of one human couple being the head of the human race seems to be lost. Paul seems to imply in Romans 5 that the sin of Adam brought sinfulness to everyone. Mythologizing Adam brings a lot of interpretive difficulties to this passage of Romans 5. Paul repeatedly stresses one man and one trespass. So, how do theistic evolutionists deal with this. By all means point me to articles, links, books, etc. that you might think are helpful, too.
 

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How do theistic evolutionists interpret the repeated talk in Romans 5 about one man and one trespass bringing sin into the world. Here's the passage (NIV):

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

If apes evolved into humans over millions of years, then any sense of one human couple being the head of the human race seems to be lost. Paul seems to imply in Romans 5 that the sin of Adam brought sinfulness to everyone.
Have a look at the bit I highlighted in verse 12. I realise the church has traditionally read this passage as though it says sin spread throughout the human race because of Adam, but it's not actually what Paul is saying. He has it the other way around. The death and condemnation described in Genesis spread through the whole human race because everyone sinned.

I realise there are plenty of TEs here who do believe in a literal Adam and Eve, just that that were not literally made out of dust and a rib, they also see Adam as the federal head of the human race, whose sin affected all of the human race. That does not depend on how Adam was formed, and works whether Adam came from dust or Ape DNA. I see Melethiel has got in there while I was writing this.

Mythologizing Adam brings a lot of interpretive difficulties to this passage of Romans 5. Paul repeatedly stresses one man and one trespass. So, how do theistic evolutionists deal with this. By all means point me to articles, links, books, etc. that you might think are helpful, too.
Mythologizing (or is that demythologizing?) Adam does cause difficulty for traditional interpretations, but I think it may actually bring us closer to what Paul actually meant in the passage. Demythologization is all very 20th century, but I think literalism may have missed what Paul is saying here. I think what Paul was doing was first century rabbinical allegorization. Paul may or may not have seen Adam as a literal historical individual, but his teaching about Adam looks at the allegorical message.

I think the other key to Romans 5 is in verse 14 ... Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Other versions translate that 'figure' or 'type'. The whole passage from 5:12 on is a comparison of Adam and Christ, but not a comparison of a literal historical Adam to Christ, it is looking at Adam as a figurative picture, both in comparisons and contrasts, of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
298
✟30,412.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
I think one of the key verses to understanding what Romans 5 is talking about is found in Romans 6:13: "Present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life."
Since we must all still face physical death some day, I think it's fairly evident that Paul is talking about spiritual life and death, here. Looking back at the Romans 5 passage you cited, then, it becomes a little a little more obvious that Paul is speaking about spiritual death here, too. Being made "righteous" and "justified" are matters of the spirit. Therefore, the very carnal/non-spiritual matter of evolution becomes a non-issue, since it has no bearing on human spirituality.

Good question, BlackSaab52.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is quite a real issue which I had to face recently as our OCF here was studying Romans 1-8 over the semester. There is an important point which both sides of the crevo debate frequently miss in the kerfuffle: what place does Romans 5:12-21 have in Romans?

Contrary to popular belief Paul is not trying to theologically demonstrate man's total depravity in Romans 5:12-21, at least not to me. I can justify that by pointing to the fact that:

1. Total depravity in any theological formulation, whenever it is assumed, should a truth foundational to the gospel (by telling us why we need a gospel and why it must be revealed from heaven); but Romans 5:12-21 comes after the exposition of the gospel in Romans 3-5.

2. Paul has already demonstrated the complete sinfulness of the human race in Romans 1-3. Note that he demonstrates sin's universality by showing how it is present both in the visibly immoral and the outwardly (yet not totally) moral, even in the Jew who deems himself part of God's people; by the same token, this depravity is total (since outward signs do not amount to an inward change of the heart, leaving all humanity condemned). Thus, if Romans 5:12-21 was simply an exposition of the doctrine of total depravity, it is redundant.

3. If this was a sermon, I'd work harder at having a third point, but it isn't, so there.

If Romans 5:12-21 is the answer, what is the question? If the creationists are right about the passage, the question would be "How did sin come into the world, through a single well-defined historical human being Adam, or through an evolutionary lineage of hominids?" And of course Paul wrote 5:12-21 to tell us that sin came through Adam instead of through apes! When I put it this baldly it is quite obvious that the creationist position makes nonsense of the passage. In particular, Paul does not work at all with the hamartiology implicit in the Genesis stories. If Paul was trying to emphasize the importance of the Genesis narratives for our understanding of sin, you would expect him to exegete more on the various processes that took place on the day of the Fall, the way he quite exactingly exegetes on other passages that are important to him (an immediate example that comes to mind is his consideration at the beginning of Ephesians 4 on the closeness of truth to the Jews, or even Romans 9-11 as an extended meditation of the OT witness to predestination). Indeed, the only use Paul ever makes of the specific details of the Fall passage (e.g. the fact that there was a serpent, the fact that it involved fruit, the fact that it happened in the garden) in his letters is to talk about the relationship of men to women; surely there's got to be more to it than that!

A helpful exercise when trying to determine the meaning of a passage in a topical progression is to try and read the book or context without that passage. ("See? I told you evolutionists pick and choose what to read in the Bible!" ;)) So suppose Paul never wrote Romans 5:12-21. What would the rest of Romans 5-6 look like?

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

... What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?


(Romans 5:8-11, 6:1-2 NIV)

It's like a record that's skipped: you can tell that the music after connects with the music before, but something's been lost in between. For Paul has gladly told us all the joys of salvation and the benefits of being in Christ; suddenly he becomes stern and warns us that we should not sin any longer. The two connect, no doubt; and both approaches together allow us to steer clear of heresies, whether legalism on the left or antinomianism on the right. But Paul is normally tidier than this. What's the link?

Enter Romans 5:12-21. Paul skilfully constructs a comparison between Adam, the federal head of the old humanity, and Christ, the federal head of the new humanity. What is Paul trying to achieve here? He is linking between the benefits of justification and the goal of sanctification (avoiding sin) by showing us that we are justified precisely so that we can be sanctified: the benefits of salvation are achieved precisely so that God can set aside for Himself a people who are no longer reckoned under Adam, to be vanquished as the enemy Adam made himself, but a people without sin and rebellion who conform to the likeness of His perfect Son in every way. Paul shows us that newness is not constructed in vacuo (so that, perhaps, a Christian might be "made new" in some way that did not require him to reform a life of sin) but is precisely the eschatological possibility and present truth of our sinlessness. Because we are reconciled in Christ, we have been taken out of Adam; because we have been taken out of Adam, we should live not as Adam did but as Christ did.

Note that the creationist construction of this passage (that it can be used to answer a question about the specific historical nature of humanity's introduction to sin) obscures the point it plays in the original letter. (This is stated with charity towards creationism; when I was a creationist I knew this passage so well as a proof-text that I had no idea why Paul put it where he put it.) If Adam is dug up, it is only to show that Christ has done away with him; the point is not so much that all are in Adam as that the believer is no longer in Adam but in Christ. Indeed, Christ's work is compared to Adam's and shown to be far greater in both power and glory than Adam's.

You may ask, "Doesn't that then make nonsense of the passage unless there actually was an Adam who did actually bring sin into the world, so that Christ may be compared with Adam?" There is a cheap answer and a better answer (and I don't think they are mutually exclusive). The cheap answer is to note that all we need to know about Adam for the purpose of this passage is that in him the sinfulness of the human race originates. To quote Capon from memory, Adam and Eve could have been Oscar and Enid and lived in a Norwegian igloo instead of in a steamy Mediterranean paradise, for all we care. The fact is that they were the origin of sin, and in that respect they are comparable to Christ who is the origin of saving righteousness. To me that is a coherent solution which is compatible with evolution.

The second, better (though costlier in terms of baggage we have to discard) answer is to see what exactly it is that Paul compares between Adam and Christ. We are not told that Adam was taller than Christ, or that he couldn't run the mile as fast, or that he had whiter teeth (to be a little more flippant than the topic deserves). No, the passage systematically compares not Adam with Christ but the trespass with the gift. (Indeed, Adam isn't even named in direct comparison with Christ; he is a named character only obliquely in v. 14, and goes under the pseudonym of "the one man" for his half of the passage.) What is the result of the trespass of Adam? It is the total depravity of mankind. (Remember, Romans 5:12-21 is under no burden to demonstrate this total depravity; it was set out in Romans 1-3.)

Now this total depravity can be compared to the atonement and irresistible grace set in motion at the cross and resurrection, to teach us that our turning to Christ is also a turning away from sin. For Paul, this lesson was best taught by abstracting total depravity into the one act which initiated its spread through humanity, and then comparing it to the one (real, historical) act which initiated the spread of its cure. For us, we may still compare our depravity before Christ to our process of sanctification initiated and sustained by Christ, even if we do not believe that this depravity is the result of a historical initial sin that consequently spread through mankind. To me, that is the best way that the evolutionist can look at the situation.

Is this twisting the text? I don't think so. An analogy might be drawn to discussing the origin of chaos in terms of Pandora (imaginary origins can help us make sense of real phenomena) but the comparison of Christian theology to pagan mythology is often counterproductive, especially in discussions with those who are so inclined to ask such questions in the first place.

A more neutral example to me is how we still call some problems "computer bugs". The term arose, I believe, through the fact that the first "bugs" were literally bugs - moths and other such insects that flew into the gigantic innards of the first electronic computers and short-circuited their electronics. (If this is not true, the point it makes is still true - a complicated meta-example of how wrong origins can illustrate truth still!) When I say that my latest program has a bug, I do not actually mean that it malfunctions because at the moment I run it, a moth flies into my computer and short-circuits the CPU! Yet it still makes sense to speak of such an error as a "bug": it is annoying, it gets in the way of what you intend to do, it may crop up randomly, and you need hard work to get rid of it! In the same way, when Paul speaks of sin as the handiwork of Adam, he is describing some of its characteristics in such a way that is still true even if there actually was no Adam, like its universality and its impropriety in the life of the true Christian.

As such, no, I don't see a problem with being an evolutionist and believing wholeheartedly the message of Romans.
 
Upvote 0

jamiel

Living on the Word, divine breath, and star-dust.
Aug 14, 2007
175
41
Reigning with Christ.
✟23,022.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Some of us do think there was a literal Adam & Eve who were the federal heads of the human race, possibly by being the first hominids to be granted the Image of God.

Bless you for calling A&E both federal heads of the human race. I don't see that very often at all.

I've thought of that too: that they were the first (including being the first in the image of God). At some point human beings became accountable for themselves.


Have a look at the bit I highlighted in verse 12. I realise the church has traditionally read this passage as though it says sin spread throughout the human race because of Adam, but it's not actually what Paul is saying. He has it the other way around. The death and condemnation described in Genesis spread through the whole human race because everyone sinned.

Good point!


Mythologizing (or is that demythologizing?) Adam does cause difficulty for traditional interpretations, but I think it may actually bring us closer to what Paul actually meant in the passage. Demythologization is all very 20th century, but I think literalism may have missed what Paul is saying here. I think what Paul was doing was first century rabbinical allegorization. Paul may or may not have seen Adam as a literal historical individual, but his teaching about Adam looks at the allegorical message.

I think the other key to Romans 5 is in verse 14 ... Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Other versions translate that 'figure' or 'type'. The whole passage from 5:12 on is a comparison of Adam and Christ, but not a comparison of a literal historical Adam to Christ, it is looking at Adam as a figurative picture, both in comparisons and contrasts, of Christ.

Yep! Excellent!


To quote Capon from memory, Adam and Eve could have been Oscar and Enid and lived in a Norwegian igloo instead of in a steamy Mediterranean paradise, for all we care. The fact is that they were the origin of sin, and in that respect they are comparable to Christ who is the origin of saving righteousness. To me that is a coherent solution which is compatible with evolution.

ITA! I really enjoyed your post. :wave: :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
I see lots of interesting assertions in this thread. Lets discuss one of them!
I realize the church has traditionally read this passage as though it says sin spread throughout the human race because of Adam, but it's not actually what Paul is saying. He has it the other way around. The death and condemnation described in Genesis spread through the whole human race because everyone sinned.

I suppose that is a possible interpretation. But a far more common reading is: The consequence of Adam's sin was that Adam and Eve's eyes were opened, indicated they had been corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Since Eve was corrupted even though she was already existing, corruption is not spread physically as some sort of sin gene. Whatever the corruption, it is spread spiritually.

Next Paul says by one man (Adam) sin entered the world. Since Eve had already done what God said not to do, what is being said here? Adam was not deceived, he sinned knowingly, not in ignorance. And therefore as a consequence of his sin, "sin" entered the world. Does Paul have in mind that some sort of sin worm burrowed into the ground? No. The world refers to mankind. Here "sin" refers to the spiritual consequence of Adam's act of transgression. This consequence affected Adam and Eve and "the many" who were made sinners. Note it does not say, were made to sin volitionally because of their spiritual corruption. Next we learn that a consequence of being made sinners is death. This refers to spiritual death, being dead in our sins. Can a dead person do anything to reestablish his life? Nope. So a spiritually dead person cannot do anything to establish a right relationship with God, even though they might seek God, believe in God and trust in Christ. All their acts of righteousness are as filthy rags because they were made sinners. Being spiritually separated from God has a consequence of being in a sinful unholy state, someone else must save them, they cannot save themselves. And what is the proof that this spiritual separation, this spiritual Death spread to all men? It is proved because they all demonstrated their sinful state by sinning.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see lots of interesting assertions in this thread. Lets discuss one of them!

I suppose that is a possible interpretation. But a far more common reading is: The consequence of Adam's sin was that Adam and Eve's eyes were opened, indicated they had been corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Since Eve was corrupted even though she was already existing, corruption is not spread physically as some sort of sin gene. Whatever the corruption, it is spread spiritually.
I agree that is a much more common reading. My question is whether the more common reading is because that is what scripture says, or it is because people know what scripture is supposed to say and read it back into the text.

There is an awful lot of history to this verse and a massive buildup of of tradition and theology based on it. Unfortunately the understanding of this verse that the tradition and theology are built on was a mistranslation into Latin that Augustine took and used to formulate his doctrine of Original Sin. His Latin translation did not say 'death spread to all men because all sinned', but 'in whom all sinned'. Death spread to all men because we sinned in Adam. This is how the Catholic Douay Rheims translation of the Latin Vulgate puts it, Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. So you get the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin that we all share Adam's responsibility because we were somehow participants in his sin, seeds in his loins when he ate the fruit. This doctrine developed in various forms down through the ages including the idea of sin nature being passed down from Adam. But the passage does not say we get our sin nature from Adam, but that we share in the death that came into the world because we all sin too.

Next Paul says by one man (Adam) sin entered the world. Since Eve had already done what God said not to do, what is being said here? Adam was not deceived, he sinned knowingly, not in ignorance. And therefore as a consequence of his sin, "sin" entered the world. Does Paul have in mind that some sort of sin worm burrowed into the ground? No. The world refers to mankind. Here "sin" refers to the spiritual consequence of Adam's act of transgression. This consequence affected Adam and Eve and "the many" who were made sinners. Note it does not say, were made to sin volitionally because of their spiritual corruption. Next we learn that a consequence of being made sinners is death. This refers to spiritual death, being dead in our sins. Can a dead person do anything to reestablish his life? Nope. So a spiritually dead person cannot do anything to establish a right relationship with God, even though they might seek God, believe in God and trust in Christ. All their acts of righteousness are as filthy rags because they were made sinners. Being spiritually separated from God has a consequence of being in a sinful unholy state, someone else must save them, they cannot save themselves. And what is the proof that this spiritual separation, this spiritual Death spread to all men? It is proved because they all demonstrated their sinful state by sinning.
It think it is very relevant Paul does not mention Eve here because as you rightly point out, she was the first to sin. No matter what spin we try to put on it, if this is a literal discussion of Adam and Eve, Paul is wrong. If Eve was the first to sin, hers was the first sin in the world and sin entered the world through her not Adam. I think the key to this passage is in verse 14 where Paul describes Adam as a figure of Christ. The whole passage is a comparison from the 'just as' in verse 12 to the 'as' and 'grace also' in verse 21. Eve is not important because figurative and allegorical comparisons can make much broader brush strokes than a literal historical analysis.

Verse 19 is interesting Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. I agree it does not mean we were made, volitionally, to sin. Paul uses an unusual word here kathistēmi, to appoint, ordain etc. If you want to look up other uses you will find it in Matt 24:45,47 25:21,23 Luke 12:14,42,44 Acts 6:3 7:10,27,35 17:15 Rom 5:19 Tit 1:5 Heb 2:7 Heb 5:1 7:28 8:3 James 3:6 4:4 & 2Pet 1:8. But I don't think it makes it any clearer though. My understanding is it means the account of Adam's sin is a legal declaration we are all sinners. You could think of it as a test case establishing a precedent, or if you read the story figuratively as a parable of what we all do individually and what mankind (Hebrew adam) has done as a whole.
 
Upvote 0

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
I thought I was prettly clear the "sin" that entered the mankind was a consequence of Adam's volitional sin, not Eve's sin of ignorance for she was deceived.

My plan for interpreting the Bible starts with the idea that it is God's inspired word so although it may contain some corruptions, the authors never get it wrong.

The word in Romans 5:19 translated "were made" simply means to put or set somewhere. Rather than being together with God, in the garden, Adam and Eve were put out of the garden. That figuratively illustrates that before they were corrupted, they will spiritually together with God, but now they have been placed in spiritual isolation from God, separated from God, which refers to us being spiritually dead because we are not united with God, before we are born again.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I thought I was prettly clear the "sin" that entered the mankind was a consequence of Adam's volitional sin, not Eve's sin of ignorance for she was deceived.
It was still sin. She was deceived about the consequences, but she was not ignorant, she knew God had said not to.

My plan for interpreting the Bible starts with the idea that it is God's inspired word so although it may contain some corruptions, the authors never get it wrong.
I am not suggesting Paul got it wrong. I am suggesting Paul a highly trained first century Jewish Rabbinical scripture scholar approached God's inspired word in ways quite different from modern literalism. If you try to read Romans 5 from a modernist literal view point, he got it wrong about who sinned first and we have to make excuses why it is not really wrong. But I don't think that is what Paul is saying at all. When we understand what Paul is saying some of these problems begin to disappear.

The word in Romans 5:19 translated "were made" simply means to put or set somewhere. Rather than being together with God, in the garden, Adam and Eve were put out of the garden. That figuratively illustrates that before they were corrupted, they will spiritually together with God, but now they have been placed in spiritual isolation from God, separated from God, which refers to us being spiritually dead because we are not united with God, before we are born again.
Possibly. But I don't think you can use the word 'simply' with kathistēmi it is not a simple word. I am afraid that might be reading our doctrines of the fall back into a verse that does not say that clearly at all.

It also goes against what seems to be Paul's emphasis that it is our own sin that cuts us off from God.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses,
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
It is though our own sins we fall short of the glory of God, through our own sins we die. This is what Paul saw when he read the OT.
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
 
Upvote 0

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
I do not think Paul got it wrong if you read literally what Paul said. Romans 5:12 says "...through one man sin entered into the world...." You are reading this to say, Adam committed the first sin of mankind, and we know that view is wrong. But it does not literally say Adam committed the first sin, does it. It says through Adam, sin entered mankind. Paul says through one transgression, not necessarily the first transgression, there resulted condemnation to all men. And what is the condemnation, that the many were made sinners. Thus, Paul did not get it wrong literally.

"Were made" means to be put somewhere. To be "made sinners" means to be put in a separated from God state, "spiritually dead."

The emphasis of Paul is that the Law teaches us that we are sinners and therefore need Christ. We transgress the Law, and if we break the law on one point, we have broken the whole Law.

When we were "dead in our trespasses and sins" our sins were not forgiven. Their penalty of death was upon us. We walked in our sins. We were not separated from our sins. But, when we were made alive, together with Christ, we were separated from our sins, the circumcision of Christ. So again the emphasis is on the consequence of sin. Our sins did not separate us from God, but our sins teach us we are separated from God, and unless they are forgiven, we will remain separated from God forever.
 
Upvote 0

Terral

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2004
1,635
49
Visit site
✟28,857.00
Faith
Christian
Hi BlackSab52:

How do theistic evolutionists interpret the repeated talk in Romans 5 about one man and one trespass bringing sin into the world. Here's the passage (NIV):

Your first problem is with the ‘translation’ of kosmos into ‘world’ (#2289 = see my Erets Shift posts #64+65), as if God is talking about the entire universe, or our local solar system, or even the planet ‘earth.’ :0) The Lexicon gives about ten definitions for ‘kosmos,’ but then the Authorized Version turns right around and translates this general term into “world” 186 times out of 187. Try narrowing things down by using definition #5, then narrow that down again by realizing God is talking about sin entering the ‘righteous branch’ from Adam to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the patriarchs and so forth. The serpent beguiled Eve using lies, deception and trickery, even before she ate from the forbidden fruit; or had opportunity to feed anything to Adam. Therefore, we see a lot of lying going on in the universe before Adam was subjected to futility like this Creation (Rom. 8:20-22). Secondly, the sixth day races (Gen. 1:26-28) have been around for millions and millions of years and have been seeing ‘death’ for just about the same amount of time; which is proven by the fossil remains of peoples (Wiki) that have been dying over the course of the same millions and millions of years.

If apes evolved into humans over millions of years, then any sense of one human couple being the head of the human race seems to be lost.

Since apes and primitive man came from the same ‘shrew’ ancestor (link), then both evolved along the same hereditary lines to branch off in different directions. Note that all primitive life came from the ‘waters’ of Genesis 1:20, which evolution teaches (link); until the lineages of amphibians, reptiles and then mammals appear, as more advanced life forms all sharing the same single celled microscopic origins. However, none of that changes the absolute fact that the Lord God (Christ) formed Adam on this ‘seventh day’ (Gen. 2:1-4+) using His own two hands. “God” (Gen. 1) has been using ‘evolution’ for millions and millions of years, but Adam’s (Gen. 2:7) incarnation is a more recent event having nothing whatsoever to do with the sixth day people of Genesis 1:26-28.

The Aborigine and Native Indian Peoples (beardless races) of this earth are descended from the sixth day people that have been fruitful and multiplying on this planet for millions of years, but the sons of Noah (Shem, Japheth and Ham = bearded races) have only been around for merely thousands of years. Most everyone here thinks that Adam was ‘created’ a mere 6000 years ago, but that is not the truth at all. Those 6000 years of Scripture are referring from the time of Adam’s ‘fall’ (Gen. 3) to the present time without taking into account that he existed as a heavenly host for thousands and thousands and thousands of years with Eve and her seed still IN him (Gen. 2:7-22), before she was eventually taken from his side.

Paul seems to imply in Romans 5 that the sin of Adam brought sinfulness to everyone.

Define everyone? Does that include the little green men flying around in the space ships? :0) The difference is that the Aborigine and Native Indian Peoples are the members of Adam’s body like every angel and living host (man, animal, plant, etc.) in this universe, while the members of the righteous branch and ‘your seed’ (Gen. 3:15) are incarnate ‘gods’ (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34) from God’s Infinite Realm (diagram = far left) who have only been incarnating into this universe for the past 6000 years. When Scripture says that “IN Adam all die” (1Cor. 15:22), then the sixth day people died IN Adam, when ‘eth-Erets (The Earth) was made void in Genesis 1:2. All of the incarnate ‘gods’ died IN Adam in God’s Infinite Realm, when Satan murdered the ‘son of God’ (Luke 3:38) in the first place ‘and’ again when Eve was taken from his side in Genesis 2:20-22. That is the time that their ‘angelic’ host (Body of Elijah member) was separated from their ‘man’ host (Body of Moses member) for one to take up residence in the heavens (spirit witness) and the other to become incarnate with her seed and your seed upon this earth. That is how Eve became the mother of ‘all the living’ (Gen. 3:20), because she represents ‘the earth,’ like Adam/Elijah represents ‘the heavens,’ so that all can be ‘made alive’ IN Christ for inheriting eternal life (her seed), OR eternal damnation in the lake of fire (your seed). Your assertion above infers that Adam brought sinfulness to the serpent and even Satan and his boy child Beast, when this evil age (Gal. 1:4) began with 'this darkness' (Eph. 6:12) falling way back in Genesis 1:2. Think things through for yourself and perhaps you will realize that ‘everyone’ cannot possibly mean “everybody” in this universe . . .

Mythologizing Adam brings a lot of interpretive difficulties to this passage of Romans 5. Paul repeatedly stresses one man and one trespass. So, how do theistic evolutionists deal with this. By all means point me to articles, links, books, etc. that you might think are helpful, too.

There are over 2000 different interpretations and only one ‘the truth.’ :0) The right answer says exactly what God says from Genesis to Revelation without creating a single contradiction. If you see even one contradiction in any of my posts, then please ‘quote >> that’ and show everyone here my nakedness using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15) and perhaps we will learn something along the way. Those mythologizing Adam will get a big fat surprise in the day they must look him directly in the face and explain themselves for refusing to honor their father and mother (Ex. 20:12). :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
The Aborigine and Native Indian Peoples (beardless races) of this earth are descended from the sixth day people that have been fruitful and multiplying on this planet for millions of years, but the sons of Noah (Shem, Japheth and Ham = bearded races) have only been around for merely thousands of years.

SuperStock_2162-438633.jpg


Seriously mon.

And do you even know what a singularity is? (Hint: some complex analysis would help with that one.)

You make silly mistakes with physical truth; why do you think you are qualified to handle spiritual truth?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.