I think I'm now officially "post-Charismatic"

[Leah]

"The gifts" at best are just a functional benefit to strengthen the Church. They are not "the point", they are not an end unto themselves. They certainly are not the defining point of Christianity.

What you just said here is found in Ephesians 4:12. The purpose of all spritual gifts is to build UP the body of Christ. We are called to fulfill that eternal purpose, not make a show of it.

Christianity is defined by love, by truth, by faith, and by hope. In my experience one of the greatest problems facing charismatic groups is that they have defined the manifestation of the gifts as real christianity, or "christianity as it is supposed to be". This often has the result of making them arrogant, and exclusive.. two things that are the very opposite of Christianity as it is supposed to be.

Exactly.

 

[ImmersionX]

I've started attending a Baptist Church and I love it!

I've been going for a little over a month now and I even went to the church picnic yesterday. The pastor seems to be a really great guy with a heart for missions and preaching the unadulterated Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. He's solidly founded in Scripture which is sooooo refreshing compared to the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches around here. Yesterday, he actually preached from a whole chapter of Acts and told us that "we must go through many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God."

And yesterday at the picnic he and his wife made a point to get to know me and include me since I was there all by myself and didn't really know anyone. So did several other people - everyone was very welcoming and seemed genuinly happy to have me there.

And talking to people showed me that it's not just the pastor and his wife who are solidly grounded in the Word and walking by faith.

The worship service is a little tame compared to what I'm used to... but I'm finding that I really like it. They don't speak in tongues or sing in tongues, they don't prophecy, they rarely clap their hands, and I haven't seen any dance (I have spotted some finger and toe tapping and hand raising). But they also don't drown out the congregation with loud music or repeat the same song over and over again until everyone is senseless or make a big production out of their musical performances. So that's also refreshing.

I suppose this makes me officially "post-charismatic" because I'd rather go without the Gifts of the Spirit in corporate worship than see them continually misused, abused and faked.

Welcome to the Heart of Worship sister.

My church actually claps in addition to what you described during Praise and Song. And it's Southern Baptist as well.

Charismatic actually to me means many many things....I am charismatic in that I believe that gifts can happen, and do. Haven't seen them in my church, but haven't heard anything preached refuting them either.

Heck in my church to me vibrant praise/song/clapping/raising hands is very charismatic in nature, yet all centers around the Word of God itself.


Glad you found comfort.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[ImmersionX]

"The gifts" at best are just a functional benefit to strengthen the Church. They are not "the point", they are not an end unto themselves. They certainly are not the defining point of Christianity.

Christianity is defined by love, by truth, by faith, and by hope. In my experience one of the greatest problems facing charismatic groups is that they have defined the manifestation of the gifts as real christianity, or "christianity as it is supposed to be". This often has the result of making them arrogant, and exclusive.. two things that are the very opposite of Christianity as it is supposed to be.

Agreed, the gifts seem to actually be the distinguishing/defining point of many people's definition of christianity at many many PC/SF churches today.
To me honestly is shouldn't be this way, and doesn't need to be either. The best example of balance of charismatic practice/belief and worship is honestly the RCC.
There is NO compromise with the charismatic practices in the Catholic churches in regards to the Liturgy of the Word/Liturgy of the Eucharist, ie the Mass.



Peace and Amen.

 

[ImmersionX]

I do, too! Yeah..I guess that's what I am, too...don't get me wrong...I still love the gifts...but there are times when it really feels nice not to have to raise my hands all the time....just rest in the LORD...I feel that when I go to the Methodist Native Am. gatherings out in Tennessee...I think it's getting too 'occultic like' in certain charismatic settings. And yeah...here in the area I live in...I'm displeased by the lack of scripture teaching in certain charismatic/pentecostal churches...it's all hype...and I've felt uneasy about going to those churches because I discerned that there is manipulation of the gifts, etc. I still need the ministry...of people praying ministering over me, though...but I've found that the real is rare in certain parts..

Sister I will certainly agree with your last statement concerning people praying over others.

I have my entire tues. night "class" lay hands on me in prayer due to the death of my good close friend recently...and it helped so much!
To me that is charismatic, considering I attend a SBC church.

It suprised me, and honestly was awesome! 15 people laying on of hands for my sake to deliver me from fear, sadness, and to bring me to know that my friend was with God now.(he was saved btw.)

 

[ImmersionX]

I was kind of nervous about it. I knew they'd want to know my "spiritual history". I didn't really want to get into my big long church history. So I copped out and told them they can ask my parents for details (they're going to my parents' house tonight).

But it was a nice lunch. We had a good discussion. We covered a lot of topics.

And, you'll never guess.... the pastor believes the Gifts of the Spirit are alive and active and available today. He said "I don't know for sure what I'd do if someone stood up and spoke in tongues in church. I guess I'd wait for someone to interpret and if no one did, I'd have to have a talk with the person who gave the message. But if God wants to bring that to our church and change things up, then we're all for that. As long as God is in it." Which is, of course, exactly Biblical.

They seem like very lovely people. And very loving. It seems this guy has a true shepherd's heart.

I'm hopeful.

I wish you didn't cop out as you put it! Sounds like your pastor is a truly honest man of God eh?

My pastor did that very same thing sorta! He paid my wife and I a nice visit to our home one night(scheduled) to discuss things concerning faith, our questions regarding the church, etc. We shared, prayed, shared and prayed. No judgments from him, nor us. This is a typical "baptist" and I'm sure other church's way of "getting acquainted with a prospective new member" type thing. I love it, and am so glad for you sister.

God Bless.

 

[BenAdam]

Seems to me that they lean towards freewill but I haven't explored the question with anyone there yet.

Have you found out yet?

 

[Tamara224]

Have you found out yet?

No, not yet. Being a compatibilist myself, this isn't a big issue for me.

 

[BenAdam]

No, not yet. Being a compatibilist myself, this isn't a big issue for me.

maybe not for you, but for them.... perhaps...

 

[Tamara224]

maybe not for you, but for them.... perhaps...

True, it could be. Although, if it were a big deal for them...seems I would have heard something either way and I haven't yet. We'll see, though.

One thing... Pastor's sermon the last two weeks has been about how anything added to faith for salvation = false Gospel. For example, expecting people to stop getting tattoos, or stop smoking/drinking, or saying you must speak in tongues all amount to false Gospels.

So.... not definite, but maybe OSAS? Not sure.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

One thing... Pastor's sermon the last two weeks has been about how anything added to faith for salvation = false Gospel. For example, expecting people to stop getting tattoos, or stop smoking/drinking, or saying you must speak in tongues all amount to false Gospels.

So.... not definite, but maybe OSAS? Not sure.

I wouldn't definitely conclude it's OSAS just from that evidence, but it sounds likely. I think Baptists do tend to be OSAS.

I see three options:

-- They may believe in OSAS

-- They may believe there's a difference between "getting saved" and "staying saved," along the lines of "saved by faith, kept by works." That seems to come up sometimes in generally Wesleyan circles. (It's not the view I hold.)

-- They may believe we can't "lose" salvation, but can potentially choose to willfully forsake it. (I think that is the more traditional Arminian view, and the one I lean toward.)

 

[Simon_Templar]

well I would agree with the basic idea of what he's saying about anything added to the terms of salvation = a false gospel.. and I'm very much not OSAS, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything

 

[JimfromOhio]

I don't like the term OSAS.

Either a person is saved or never got saved in the first place. If we are truly saved, we are saved by grace that God will keep us - Jesus is my Shephard who keeps me safe, John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand." How can anyone who saved get snatched out of His hand and lose salvation unless a person is not saved in the first place? Even when I (my flesh) fails?

Maybe a person was never saved in the first place. Christians will never be lost or disowned by God. A Christian may be confused by false doctrines but still a heir of God's blessing. In Ephesians 4:30, Paul wrote ".....do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption". Paul also wrote in 2 Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His."

Corinthians 1:22 "Set His seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

This is how we are to understand God's grace. When God in His grace is working a true salvation in us, we cannot ignoree the gospel of grace unless we encourage sinners to repent which is part of grace's work.

 

[JimfromOhio]

True, it could be. Although, if it were a big deal for them...seems I would have heard something either way and I haven't yet. We'll see, though.

One thing... Pastor's sermon the last two weeks has been about how anything added to faith for salvation = false Gospel. For example, expecting people to stop getting tattoos, or stop smoking/drinking, or saying you must speak in tongues all amount to false Gospels.

So.... not definite, but maybe OSAS? Not sure.

I can see where the pastor is coming from. There is a huge differences between adding to your faith from legalism point of view and adding to your faith from spiritual point of view (2 Peter 1:5-9).

Give God time and you will know for sure whether you belong to this church or another.

I am looking for a new home church since I have moved (again but very last moved since I bought a house). I like one church and attended about 7 times. I am going to check out another church this weekend and see what happens. I am just allowing God to direct me and see where He leads me. To be unafraid regardless what is going on a person's life journey, true Faith sees everything in focus and be able to trust God no matter what happens. God leads us to our destiny according to His will and glory.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I've started attending a Baptist Church and I love it!

I've been going for a little over a month now and I even went to the church picnic yesterday. The pastor seems to be a really great guy with a heart for missions and preaching the unadulterated Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. He's solidly founded in Scripture which is sooooo refreshing compared to the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches around here. Yesterday, he actually preached from a whole chapter of Acts and told us that "we must go through many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God."

And yesterday at the picnic he and his wife made a point to get to know me and include me since I was there all by myself and didn't really know anyone. So did several other people - everyone was very welcoming and seemed genuinly happy to have me there.

And talking to people showed me that it's not just the pastor and his wife who are solidly grounded in the Word and walking by faith.

The worship service is a little tame compared to what I'm used to... but I'm finding that I really like it. They don't speak in tongues or sing in tongues, they don't prophecy, they rarely clap their hands, and I haven't seen any dance (I have spotted some finger and toe tapping and hand raising). But they also don't drown out the congregation with loud music or repeat the same song over and over again until everyone is senseless or make a big production out of their musical performances. So that's also refreshing.

I suppose this makes me officially "post-charismatic" because I'd rather go without the Gifts of the Spirit in corporate worship than see them continually misused, abused and faked.

I left the majority of Pentecostal churches because of their infection by the WOF and the Counterfeit Revivalism . . . but I still hold vehemently to the gifts and Baptism of the Spirit.

I have been on staff at several churches and even took a pastorate at a baptist church (BGC: Baptist General Conference). But with my conviction about the gifts and the desire of God for supernatural ministry (which sometimes doesn't look supernatural at all!) I was told a time or two about my preaching that it was a bit too Pentecostal . . . fire filled and such I guess.

I left that pastorate after a year and a half and then soon left the church about 6 mos later. I left because of the need in my life for the supernatural . . . I took 70 students out to a winter retreat for 4 days w another local Pastor of Student Ministries and the Spirit FELL HARD upon us all. Weeping . . . public repentance . . . prophetic ministry . . . mostly encouragement, not the fortelling usually seen in P/C circles . . . sisters and brothers restored to one another within family units. I have NEVER seen anything like it . . . and it reminded me of the active move of the Spirit (vs. passive) and His desire to do so frequently.

So I left the baptist church when my wife and I found a local Charismatic REFORMED church! Weird! . . . but the first Sunday a prophetic word was submitted to the Pastor and he allowed it to be spoken publically . . . and when it was spoken at the mic we realized it was for US! We were invited to lunch by a certain family . . . and I knew we were where God wanted us to be when the family's first question to us was: Would you tell us about your testimony and the glory of God in your lives? and they listened with interest and blessing!

Sovereign Grace has been our home now for the last three years . . . while there are finer points of Calvinism that I reject . . . and certain functions about tongues that we disagree on . . . I am more at home than I ever have been . . . and the Gospel is the center . . . and gifts are to be eagerly desired and practiced within the guidelines of Scripture for the edification and life of the Body of Christ.

Don't give up sister . . .

 

[JimfromOhio]

I left the majority of Pentecostal churches because of their infection by the WOF and the Counterfeit Revivalism . . . but I still hold vehemently to the gifts and Baptism of the Spirit.

I have been on staff at several churches and even took a pastorate at a baptist church (BGC: Baptist General Conference). But with my conviction about the gifts and the desire of God for supernatural ministry (which sometimes doesn't look supernatural at all!) I was told a time or two about my preaching that it was a bit too Pentecostal . . . fire filled and such I guess.

I left that pastorate after a year and a half and then soon left the church about 6 mos later. I left because of the need in my life for the supernatural . . . I took 70 students out to a winter retreat for 4 days w another local Pastor of Student Ministries and the Spirit FELL HARD upon us all. Weeping . . . public repentance . . . prophetic ministry . . . mostly encouragement, not the fortelling usually seen in P/C circles . . . sisters and brothers restored to one another within family units. I have NEVER seen anything like it . . . and it reminded me of the active move of the Spirit (vs. passive) and His desire to do so frequently.

So I left the baptist church when my wife and I found a local Charismatic REFORMED church! Weird! . . . but the first Sunday a prophetic word was submitted to the Pastor and he allowed it to be spoken publically . . . and when it was spoken at the mic we realized it was for US! We were invited to lunch by a certain family . . . and I knew we were where God wanted us to be when the family's first question to us was: Would you tell us about your testimony and the glory of God in your lives? and they listened with interest and blessing!

Sovereign Grace has been our home now for the last three years . . . while there are finer points of Calvinism that I reject . . . and certain functions about tongues that we disagree on . . . I am more at home than I ever have been . . . and the Gospel is the center . . . and gifts are to be eagerly desired and practiced within the guidelines of Scripture for the edification and life of the Body of Christ.

Don't give up sister . . .

Sounds like you found a local "Charismatic REFORMED church" that I have been looking for. I am happy for ya.

 

[Tamara224]

Don't give up sister . . .

Thanks so much for your testimony! That's very encouraging.

I firmly believe that my church journey is being directed by the Lord. I'm not sure what all He's teaching me yet, but I know some of it.

It's been tough. The hardest part has been lack of fellowship for such a long time. For months and months the only fellowship with believers that I have gotten is here at CF.

But I think I needed that time to make me appreciate how important fellowship really is. I had to really long for it. I have a rather independent spirit and for a long time thought "I don't need anyone, I can do it on my own, just me and God." And I think God said "Oh yeah, well, try it then but you won't really like it."

At this point I think that God wants me to go to this Baptist church... I don't know what is in store for me there, or how God wants to use me there. I want to be open to whatever it is.

I would love to be in a congregation that regularly experiences the true move and power of God in ways like you described. But I'm also more open now to seeing His hand in the less obvious things.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Sounds like you found a local "Charismatic REFORMED church" that I have been looking for. I am happy for ya.

There are 2 from our denom. in Ohio . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Thanks so much for your testimony! That's very encouraging.

I firmly believe that my church journey is being directed by the Lord. I'm not sure what all He's teaching me yet, but I know some of it.

It's been tough. The hardest part has been lack of fellowship for such a long time. For months and months the only fellowship with believers that I have gotten is here at CF.

But I think I needed that time to make me appreciate how important fellowship really is. I had to really long for it. I have a rather independent spirit and for a long time thought "I don't need anyone, I can do it on my own, just me and God." And I think God said "Oh yeah, well, try it then but you won't really like it."

At this point I think that God wants me to go to this Baptist church... I don't know what is in store for me there, or how God wants to use me there. I want to be open to whatever it is.

I would love to be in a congregation that regularly experiences the true move and power of God in ways like you described. But I'm also more open now to seeing His hand in the less obvious things.

UR welcome . . . just don't neglect where God has taken you for where He is taking you . . . it is both and!

 

[Tamara224]

Here is the real question, are these Calvinists or Freewill Baptists?

So, it turns out that my parents had this discussion with the pastor. He is somewhere in the middle... He said he can see that Scripture teaches both predestination and free will... so he says he doesn't know how it all works together, but it does.

He also said, though, that at least one of the deacons is Calvinist.

So it sounds like there's room to differ in this congregation.

It keeps getting better and better....

 

[BenAdam]

So, it turns out that my parents had this discussion with the pastor. He is somewhere in the middle... He said he can see that Scripture teaches both predestination and free will... so he says he doesn't know how it all works together, but it does.

He also said, though, that at least one of the deacons is Calvinist.

So it sounds like there's room to differ in this congregation.

It keeps getting better and better....

Get em all baptized in the Spirit and it will rock!!!