McCain Avoids Vietnam Vets Tough Questions

[geocajun]

Your disdain is showing.

For you? okay. I have no disdain for the military though.

 

[MichaelFJF]

I have been in a lot of military forums, and believe me, those who have seen combat make the distinction, even so far as using a certain acronym to describe those who served in the rear- combat zone or not.

Well gee if we're going to depend on internet forums to define terms then I must be wrong. Look, I never said there weren't distinctions. My argument is with anyone who says you can't be called a vet. unless you saw combat. If you saw combat, you're a combat vet. If you didn't, you're still a vet.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Well gee if we're going to depend on internet forums to define terms then I must be wrong. Look, I never said there weren't distinctions. My argument is with anyone who says you can't be called a vet. unless you saw combat. If you saw combat, you're a combat vet. If you didn't, you're still a vet.

A vet of what ?

 

[JoabAnias]

geo, I signed up in 1983 at 19 yrs old. I think the distinction you are looking for is that there are echelons of benefits.

For example, National Guard are primarily funded by the state and active duty is the fed.

I served in both a state and a federal capacity.

I was also an over seas vet before I went into the National Guard and didn't see any action until some time later.

What happens is National Guard are activated to federal status under order of the fed.

None of this makes any difference as far as being classified a vet. The real difference is in benefits one is entitled to and for what reasons.

Where the benefits kick in are if your hurt while on federal duty or become eligible for retirement after 20 years or 15 with medical related reasons and then its only VA medical coverage which has a lot to be desired unless you like waiting in lines for a day at a time. Its great for prescriptions if your close to a VA center but mostly a hassle. This is why I use my career related BCBS instead.

I have a US flag which means I am entitled to a military funeral and sure I can have a vet plate for my car and am invited to the American Legion but so is any vet but my service related disability entitles me to a stipend and VA medical for life and an invite to the VFW but I would give that up to go back to having missed out on that process in a heartbeat.

So basically a vet is a vet. The only thing that entitles one to med benefits are disability on active duty, either war or peace related and or retirement meaning you have to make it to the 20 yr mark.

I have a full passport, a wall full of awards and a chest full of medals and you can have them all if you want them. What I take away from the experience of value being a head full memories can't be given away.

Its too bad you didn't go in. Its good to experience Cesar in action and for building a sense of honor and value for life.

It might also give one an adequate experience to know what they are talking about when it comes to war like Senator McCain does. Something Senator Obama would be at a severe disadvantage should he become Commander and Chief. I dread the thought of him having to rely on 3-4 star advisers and what that might bring.

I as well wonder what kind of sacrifices he has ever made at all? Why does he deserve to be president more than someone who served the country with his life and sacrificed his own freedom for his comrades who understands what it means to defend a nation and even to adopt a child in need from Mother Teresa versus one who would place a value judgement on life as not as important as maintaining ones own status quo?

 

[JoabAnias]

A vet of what ?

Hurrying up and waiting.

So you don't think a person is a vet unless they see action either?

I know units that fire 80,000 rounds of artillery every year just in training.

In many ways training is much more difficult and just as risky as actual action.

 

[JoabAnias]

A vet of what ?

Me thinks you watch to many war movies.

 

[geocajun]

It might also give one an adequate experience to know what they are talking about when it comes to war like Senator McCain does. Something Senator Obama would be at a severe disadvantage should he become Commander and Chief. I dread the thought of him having to rely on 3-4 star advisers and what that might bring.

I as well wonder what kind of sacrifices he has ever made at all? Why does he deserve to be president more than someone who served the country with his life and sacrificed his own freedom for his comrades who understands what it means to defend a nation and even to adopt a child in need from Mother Teresa versus one who would place a value judgement on life as not as important as maintaining ones own status quo?

I disagree with the idea that having been a soldier qualifies one to have better judgment on war. The military is a means (a blunt instrument), not the end of war (it's purpose). Most in the military never influence its purpose or even fully understand it. That's alright because they don't need to. They understand what is like to fight in a war better than I ever will, but we don't go to war for the experience of it all. War has a purpose that is decided based on the judgment of leaders of our country, and it is a very rare military adviser that gets to influence that. That is an experience that McCain doesn't have either.

Additionally on your question about sacrifices - I'd say Obama made a serious sacrifice in going to work in city government after graduating from Harvard. He could been a rich attorney like his graduating peers.

Neither Obama's qualification, nor McCain's time as a soldier qualify either men to be president. Obama has shown better judgment than McCain however, on important issue such as this unjust war we are fighting.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I think Sen. McCain did a good job of allowing the man to speak and articulate his grievances. McCain also did a good job of answering him.
I believe that YES Veterans should be given high priority and complete and full benefits, but McCain did exactly as he is supposed to do as a politician. He negotiated and utilized the concept of quid pro quo.
I being a Veteran of the US Army, am for complete and full benefits for our soldiers in harms way, but I always get the gnawing feeling that those who don't fully support the American serviceman and Woman, sometimes use their needs and benefits to their own design. It seems that this time around, unlike Vietnam, the anti Military faction has learned to feign concern for the troops as a weapon to use against those that don't fit their political agenda. I also think that most soldiers and their families see through it.

McCain answered his question not by answering why he voted the way he did but by saying he had 100% ratings with veteran's associations. He doesn't.

 

[JoabAnias]

I disagree with the idea that having been a soldier qualifies one to have better judgment on war. The military is a means (a blunt instrument), not the end of war (it's purpose). Most in the military never influence its purpose or even fully understand it. That's alright because they don't need to. They understand what is like to fight in a war better than I ever will, but we don't go to war for the experience of it all. War has a purpose that is decided based on the judgment of leaders of our country, and it is a very rare military adviser that gets to influence that. That is an experience that McCain doesn't have either.

Additionally on your question about sacrifices - I'd say Obama made a serious sacrifice in going to work in city government after graduating from Harvard. He could been a rich attorney like his graduating peers.

Neither Obama's qualification, nor McCain's time as a soldier qualify either men to be president. Obama has shown better judgment than McCain however, on important issue such as this unjust war we are fighting.

Do you know what the Joint Chiefs of Staff do?

If you "disagree with the idea that having been a soldier qualifies one to have better judgment on war" What do you think does then? Surely all those at the pentagon got there by being pencil pushers. Because you don't understand it is exactly why your statement is absurd my friend and exactly why a president without this experience cares more about his pencil than national defense as we have already seen in previous administrations. Having had that experience I know the difference and I tell you without it this country will be open for attack again. Mark my words. And in fact if that were to happen under Senator Obama all he would have is advisers. I prefer someone with experience. It makes a world of difference. I agree he has a lot going for him or he wouldn't have made it this far but on the two most important fronts of social justice and homeland security he is inept. If he gets in I hope he has the where with all to appoint as good a cabinet as Bush has and if he does then that will help but when it comes down to the executive decisions I will remain uneasy.

 

[BAFRIEND]

If you "disagree with the idea that having been a soldier qualifies one to have better judgment on war" What do you think does then? Surely all those at the pentagon got there by being pencil pushers.

The military is a political tool. Its only purpose is to destroy. You think we should trust a nineteen year old with a machine gun more than a general with a finger on the button Joab. That reminds me, Adolph Hitler was a young corporal in the German Army in WWI, right ?

I think the qualification for president should be having been a state governor who actually proved him or herself running a state successfully.

Its too bad you didn't go in. Its good to experience Cesar in action and for building a sense of honor and value for life.

Here is a list of those who developed a sense of honor and value for life:

1) Timothy McVeigh, US Army Gulf War Vet. Oklahoma City bombing.
2) John Muhammad, US Army Gulf War Vet. Washington sniper.
3) Howard Unrah, US Army WWII Vet. Shot 13 neighbors.
4) Jeffery Dahmer, US Army. He ate people.
5) David Berkowitz, US army. Son of Sam.
6) Charles Whitman, USMC. Vietnam Vet. Texas Tower Sniper.
7) Gary Ridgway, USN. Green River Killer.
8) Dean Corrl, US Army. Murdered at least 27 boys.
9) Lee Harvey Oswald, USMC. Murdered president Kennedy.
10) Randy Kraft, USAF. Freeway Killer.
11) Dennis Rader, USAF. BTK
12) Robert Yates, US Army. Serial Killer.
13) Charles Cullen, US Navy. Serial Killer.
14) Charles Ng, USMC. Serial Killer.
15) Henry Wallace, US Navy. Serial Killer.
16) Albert DeSalvo, US Army. Boston Strangler.
17) Wayne Ford, USMC, Serial Killer.
18) Richard Evonitz, US Navy. Serial Killer.
19) Jeffery McDonald, US Army (Active Duty). Murdered his wife and three kids.
20) David Housler, US Army (active Duty). Murdered 4 Taco Bell employees during robbery.

I could make the list much longer...

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Do you know what the Joint Chiefs of Staff do?

If you "disagree with the idea that having been a soldier qualifies one to have better judgment on war" What do you think does then? Surely all those at the pentagon got there by being pencil pushers. Because you don't understand it is exactly why your statement is absurd my friend and exactly why a president without this experience cares more about his pencil than national defense as we have already seen in previous administrations. Having had that experience I know the difference and I tell you without it this country will be open for attack again. Mark my words. And in fact if that were to happen under Senator Obama all he would have is advisers. I prefer someone with experience. It makes a world of difference. I agree he has a lot going for him or he wouldn't have made it this far but on the two most important fronts of social justice and homeland security he is inept. If he gets in I hope he has the where with all to appoint as good a cabinet as Bush has and if he does then that will help but when it comes down to the executive decisions I will remain uneasy.

The Joint Chiefs are generals and admirals. McCain left the Navy as a Captain from the Office of Legislative Affairs. While we should honor his military service and acknowledge what it says about him and his character, we should not overstate its relevance to matters of national security. Most of what he knows about national security probably came from his time in Congress.

 

[JoabAnias]

The military is a political tool.

It can be and it shouldn't be.

Its only purpose is to destroy.

Wrong, its necessity is to protect.

You think we should trust a nineteen year old with a machine gun more than a general with a finger on the button Joab.

Where did I ever make such an outlandish statement. There goes those movies again.

That reminds me, Adolph Hitler was a young corporal in the German Army in WWI, right ?

Is there a point you wish to make? I am missing it.

I think the qualification for president should be having been a state governor who actually proved him or herself running a state successfully.

Being an upstanding citizen isn't good enough for you?

Here is a list of those who developed a sense of honor and value for life:

1) Timothy McVeigh, US Army Gulf War Vet. Oklahoma City bombing.
2) John Muhammad, US Army Gulf War Vet. Washington sniper.
3) Howard Unrah, US Army WWII Vet. Shot 13 neighbors.
4) Jeffery Dahmer, US Army. He ate people.
5) David Berkowitz, US army. Son of Sam.
6) Charles Whitman, USMC. Vietnam Vet. Texas Tower Sniper.
7) Gary Ridgway, USN. Green River Killer.
8) Dean Corrl, US Army. Murdered at least 27 boys.
9) Lee Harvey Oswald, USMC. Murdered president Kennedy.
10) Randy Kraft, USAF. Freeway Killer.
11) Dennis Rader, USAF. BTK
12) Robert Yates, US Army. Serial Killer.
13) Charles Cullen, US Navy. Serial Killer.
14) Charles Ng, USMC. Serial Killer.
15) Henry Wallace, US Navy. Serial Killer.
16) Albert DeSalvo, US Army. Boston Strangler.
17) Wayne Ford, USMC, Serial Killer.
18) Richard Evonitz, US Navy. Serial Killer.
19) Jeffery McDonald, US Army (Active Duty). Murdered his wife and three kids.
20) David Housler, US Army (active Duty). Murdered 4 Taco Bell employees during robbery.

I could make the list much longer...

Not what I consider value and honor at all. Again, is there a point to this ad hominem toward service to the country?

You could make your list as long as possible and it wouldn't scratch the surface of the great valor, bravery and gratitude that should be shown toward those who paved and continue to pave the way for your way of life brother.

 

[JoabAnias]

The Joint Chiefs are generals and admirals. McCain left the Navy as a Captain from the Office of Legislative Affairs. While we should honor his military service and acknowledge what it says about him and his character, we should not overstate its relevance to matters of national security. Most of what he knows about national security probably came from his time in Congress.

I agree and neither should we understate its relevance because it is relevant.

Even the enlisted are trained on international policy and national security. Officers are trained on tactics and presidents in warfare. I don't know if Senator McCain was involved in intelligence or not but to a certain degree he must have been as all service men and women are involved in national security to some extent. My clearance was secret and I know things I can never reveal even to my own spouse. There are different echelons but its all relevant to national security to some extent.

What impresses me most is that a POW would willingly choose to remain incarcerated so that his comrades could go free first. This is what this man did. Think about that selfless sacrifice and how that translates to what he will do for this country if given the chance.

 

[Fantine]

McCain opposed the Veterans' Bill because he believed that improving (actually giving equitable) educational benefits for National Guard members would encourage them not to reenlist, and to increase educational benefits for all military members would encourage them not to reenlist.

Only emphasizing the fact that the "volunteer" Army includes a lot of people who don't have any other options in life trying to better their futures a little bit.

Obama and other Congress members pointed out that there might be people who didn't reenlist, choosing instead to go to college or trade school, but obviously they would be people who were already burned out and ready to go. When 15% of soldiers come home from Iraq with PTSD symptoms, who would you prefer to have with you on a return tour of duty--someone new, or someone with PTSD who had to reenlist because he hadn't accrued enough education benefits to get a comparable civilian job?

 

[BAFRIEND]

Not what I consider value and honor at all. Again, is there a point to this ad hominem toward service to the country?

You could make your list as long as possible and it wouldn't scratch the surface of the great valor, bravery and gratitude that should be shown toward those who paved and continue to pave the way for your way of life brother.

Its too bad you didn't go in. Its good to experience Cesar in action and for building a sense of honor and value for life.

I was addressing the bold faced comment above that you made to Geo stating that the military builds a sense of honor and value for life.

My response was no adhominem attack. It is fact and related to your comment. I can understand why this list would make many uncomfortable. Our most notorious and infamous serial killers, for the most part seem to share the common history of military service.

But I felt and still do that it was very important to address the comment that you made to Geo. You were basically stating that being in the service somehow makes one more self-aware, dutiful, and honorable. That may be the case for 90%+ of those in the service. But in the military you are given automatic rifles that fire at a sustained rate of over 600 rpm and how to pull the pin on a grenade. Those rifles and grenades do not build bridges or plow fields. They serve two purposes: saving and killing.

 

[geocajun]

Do you know what the Joint Chiefs of Staff do?

If you "disagree with the idea that having been a soldier qualifies one to have better judgment on war" What do you think does then?

It gives them experience on what it is like to fight in a war. That is a far different thing. I did explain that in the post you obviously didn't read.

Additionaly here is General Wesley Clark explaining the same thing:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tPeFb4h4NbI

Surely all those at the pentagon got there by being pencil pushers. Because you don't understand it is exactly why your statement is absurd my friend and exactly why a president without this experience cares more about his pencil than national defense as we have already seen in previous administrations. Having had that experience I know the difference and I tell you without it this country will be open for attack again. Mark my words. And in fact if that were to happen under Senator Obama all he would have is advisers. I prefer someone with experience. It makes a world of difference. I agree he has a lot going for him or he wouldn't have made it this far but on the two most important fronts of social justice and homeland security he is inept. If he gets in I hope he has the where with all to appoint as good a cabinet as Bush has and if he does then that will help but when it comes down to the executive decisions I will remain uneasy.

War's are fought for political ends. What do you think that means? War's aren't fought for war's sake - if they were then the soldier would be qualified.

I hope you take some time and listen carefully to Retired General Wesley Clark on the matter, who is far more qualified to discuss it than you or I, and he has exercised judgment in wartime.

 

[BAFRIEND]

What impresses me most is that a POW would willingly choose to remain incarcerated so that his comrades could go free first. This is what this man did. Think about that selfless sacrifice and how that translates to what he will do for this country if given the chance.

They made a pact that they would all leave together. No one would abandon friends. Obama's new campaign ad states he learned values from his white grandparents (once again emphasis on race is his not mine) in the mid-west and those values have carried him throughout his life. Well, despite those values, Obama snorted cocaine. The irony here: McCain's values led him to keep a promise not to abandon his friends which meant years of pain and suffering while Obama's values led him to snort cocain despite everything he was ever taught.

We have showing and saying. McCain has proven he has honor and character, Obama just says he does. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[geocajun]

They made a pact that they would all leave together. No one would abandon friends. Obama,s new campaign ad states he learned values from his white grandparents (once again emphasis on race is his not mine) in the mid-west and those values have carried him thorughout his life. Well, despite those values, Obama snorted cocaine. The irony here: McCain's values led him to keep a promise not to abandon his friends which meant years of pain and suffering while Obama's values led him to snort cocain despite everything he was ever taught.

We have showing and saying. McCain has proven he has honor and character, Obama just says he does. Actions speak louder than words.

McCain's values led him to come home from war and divorce his wife and marry a rich young chick who he often calls a c*** among other expletives in his fits of rage.

 

[BAFRIEND]

McCain's values led him to come home from war and divorce his wife and marry a rich young chick who he often calls a c*** among other expletives in his fits of rage.

At least he did not become a serial killer.

 

[Fantine]

I think that Obama's using cocaine is more of a generational difference than a difference in character.

Current generations, from baby boomers on, are much more likely to have experimented with drugs and made mistakes than past generations (in addition, their pasts are investigated far more vigorously than during past generations--President Kennedy's many affairs were never publicized as much as Clinton's.)

And he may not be the only Presidential candidate who ever used cocaine. Kitty Kelley's book on the Bush family mentions Bush cocaine use on pages 266 and 304, including a quote from his former sister-in-law. (Of course, any comparison that can be made of Obama to Bush is not good for Obama.)

As the lives of the Saints will show you, many people with sinful pasts find redemption and go on to lead exemplary lives.

While I admire McCain's courage and heroism, and would be very concerned about allegations about any candidate's character within the last 15 or so years, I would not expect blameless lives from birth onward.

While we're on the subject, when Al Gore ran for President it was well publicized that his father, a wealthy and powerful Senator, would have been able to pull strings to keep Gore out of the military, but young Al felt it was wrong for another local boy to have to take his place. He enlisted and went to Vietnam as a journalist (that having been one of his college majors.) Fat lot of credit he got for that while he ran against someone who defended the shores of Alabama from attack.