My Challenge to the Conservative Christians

[jamielindas]

Absence of knowledge doesn't mean nonexistence.

nor does it prove existence. Though lack of evidence does make it seem highly unlikely... Since SO MANY things that were once thought to be supernatural (requiring the influence of a supernatural being) have been shown to be naturally occurring, it's not a huge interpolation to take the smaller leap of faith(yes, i said it) and assume that nearly everything has a natural explanation.

There's no proof on either side and you can prove nonexistence. So both sides have every right to believe what they believe.

How would one go about proving non-existence? A universal negative is a hard thing to prove. The easiest way would be to prove that it CAN'T exist.

Logic says the burden of proof lies on the affirmative position, not on the negative or doubting.

 

[Merlin]

If something cannot be proven to exist and cannot be proven to have measurable effects on the physical world, what's the difference between this something and something imaginary?

This only shows a limitation of the 'scientific' tools used.

 

[jamielindas]

This only shows a limitation of the 'scientific' tools used.

True, science is limited to the natural, physical and/or observable world. It is unlikely that we will ever be able to probe beyond our universe, which includes probing 'before' the big bang. It is unlikely we can ever answer certain questions with absolute certainty. This is why when we do make assumptions or guesses, we state those assumptions clearly and why we feel it is safe to make them.
(unfortunately, the media never communicates this kind of info when covering scientific stories. They leave that kind of technical detail out, so it remains in research journals, outside the perception of the general public)

 

[BigBadWlf]

I am a Conservative Christian and I don't think your description portrays me. Ask me about a particular doctrine and I might can respond better.

Lisa

How about yoru claim that homosexuality is a sin

 

[FaithLikeARock]

nor does it prove existence. Though lack of evidence does make it seem highly unlikely... Since SO MANY things that were once thought to be supernatural (requiring the influence of a supernatural being) have been shown to be naturally occurring, it's not a huge interpolation to take the smaller leap of faith(yes, i said it) and assume that nearly everything has a natural explanation.





How would one go about proving non-existence? A universal negative is a hard thing to prove. The easiest way would be to prove that it CAN'T exist.

Logic says the burden of proof lies on the affirmative position, not on the negative or doubting.

Say a person says there is a tree on a hill. On top of the hill there is in fact no tree. You take the person on top of the hill and stand them in that spot. You dig into the ground and discover no roots. You are in fact, proving nonexistance. With religious belief it's a bit more complex but you get the picture.

 

[selfinflikted]

Say a person says there is a tree on a hill. On top of the hill there is in fact no tree. You take the person on top of the hill and stand them in that spot. You dig into the ground and discover no roots. You are in fact, proving nonexistance. With religious belief it's a bit more complex but you get the picture.

 

[keith99]

Well, I read the edited OP, and I still do not see myself in that. I spend most of my time in GA talking with atheists. I do believe that sex outside the confines of marriage is a sin. I do not focus on homosexuals but believe one sexual sin is the same as another. One of the best internet friends is possessed by demons but has a great deal of faith. Most fundies would think that is impossible. I have worked with a Satanist on this board to defend someone who was accused unfairly. I do believe that the KJV is the best translation we have short of the original texts. I do not agree with several things in Roman Catholicism, but I post there often as well and am welcomed there. I am very much against abortion and I have spent countless hours on here posting why. However, I would rather work with Pro-Choice advocates to reduce the number of abortions rather than spin my wheels constantly arguing over how God feels about it.

So, I think that there may be a small percentage of fundies who could be described by the OP, but most of the people I know are not that way.

I think what you are describing is more of a characterization than reality.

Lisa

Really? read the verses that start 'If I speak in tongues of men and Angels but have not...' and then say the KJV is a good translation for todays reader! Even though at the time translated those verses may have come closest to the original meaning of any translation to English (for the reader of the time) it today is close to gibbersih. Not because the translators did poorly, but because the meaning of the English words has changed with time.

Most poetic perhaps, most accurate, no way.

No tto say the KJV is bad. If nothing else it is an excellent resource for determining if a 'you' is singular or plural, as the English of that time made the distinction as did the Greek, while todays English does not.

 

[The Nihilist]

Absence of knowledge doesn't mean nonexistence. There's no proof on either side and you can prove nonexistence. So both sides have every right to believe what they believe.

Faith, that's not true. Nonexistence cannot be proven. If you think it can, then please explain how such a proof would work.
Please note that proving that a thing is not a given location does not prove that such a thing does not exist

 

[Spherical Time]

Faith, that's not true. Nonexistence cannot be proven. If you think it can, then please explain how such a proof would work.

Agreed.

 

[Lisa0315]

Wait a minute.. you actually believe in "demon possession"?

I believe that there are forces of both good and evil that can influence people. I believe that these forces are supernatural and/or due to mental illness. I believe more today than I once did simply because I have had some experience with it.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Really? read the verses that start 'If I speak in tongues of men and Angels but have not...' and then say the KJV is a good translation for todays reader! Even though at the time translated those verses may have come closest to the original meaning of any translation to English (for the reader of the time) it today is close to gibbersih. Not because the translators did poorly, but because the meaning of the English words has changed with time.

Most poetic perhaps, most accurate, no way.

No tto say the KJV is bad. If nothing else it is an excellent resource for determining if a 'you' is singular or plural, as the English of that time made the distinction as did the Greek, while todays English does not.

Well, here is the thing. I have a distinct advantage in College because I have been reading the KJV since I was five years old. I have an ear for Shakespere. Writing comes easy for me, and reading comprehension has also always been a benefit for me.

Personally, I think they should teach kids to read Shakespere in early Elementary school.

As for the translation, I understand that, but we have such great resources, especially today to go back to the original greek and Hebrew. So, translation is not a problem as long as you have access to Strong's.

Lisa

 

[Maren]

How about yoru claim that homosexuality is a sin

I'm going to say that I've seen a difference between Lisa and those that the OP is describing -- in fact I've not seen them on this thread. From what I've seen of Lisa, she admits that it homosexuality being a sin is based on her belief system and, as such, she recognizes that she cannot force others to live based on her belief. At the same time, she'd like others to give her the same respect. Now, I hope if I've misstated here that Lisa will correct me, or perhaps even just better clarify her thoughts.

The ones I see the OP describing are the ones who are convinced they know exactly what God wants, and because they claim that knowledge, they feel the right to tell others how to live. Also, since they feel they know what God wants, they feel no need to listen to anyone elses thoughts or beliefs. And what is really frustrating, they often appear to feel that anything they claim is true, regardless of how many people can provide evidence that proves them wrong (such as the idea of HIV being a gay disease).

I will also agree that you find these people on the Left and on the Right, one of the reasons I get so frustrated with politics currently.

 

[mpok1519]

In order to become enlightened, one must first admit to oneself that one essentially does not and never will truely know anything.

Then enlightenment starts...

=P

 

[jamielindas]

Faith, that's not true. Nonexistence cannot be proven. If you think it can, then please explain how such a proof would work.
Please note that proving that a thing is not a given location does not prove that such a thing does not exist

thanks you!


proving there is not a tree on THAT hill is not the same as proving that the tree does not exist at all. Such a think would require omnipresence to prove.
(hum... did I just show that it requires omnipresence to prove omnipresence? ooOOooooOOoh)

 

[cantata]

Strong's? Is it really necessary to use a concordance (or, frankly, a translation) that's over 100 years old?

 

[Lisa0315]

I'm going to say that I've seen a difference between Lisa and those that the OP is describing -- in fact I've not seen them on this thread. From what I've seen of Lisa, she admits that it homosexuality being a sin is based on her belief system and, as such, she recognizes that she cannot force others to live based on her belief. At the same time, she'd like others to give her the same respect. Now, I hope if I've misstated here that Lisa will correct me, or perhaps even just better clarify her thoughts.

The ones I see the OP describing are the ones who are convinced they know exactly what God wants, and because they claim that knowledge, they feel the right to tell others how to live. Also, since they feel they know what God wants, they feel no need to listen to anyone elses thoughts or beliefs. And what is really frustrating, they often appear to feel that anything they claim is true, regardless of how many people can provide evidence that proves them wrong (such as the idea of HIV being a gay disease).

I will also agree that you find these people on the Left and on the Right, one of the reasons I get so frustrated with politics currently.

Thank You. That is so nice of you. I think you put it very well.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Strong's? Is it really necessary to use a concordance (or, frankly, a translation) that's over 100 years old?

Well, that is my fundie upraising, I suppose. I trust the KJV and Strong's. If it a'int broke, why fix it?

Lisa

 

[cantata]

Well, that is my fundie upraising, I suppose. I trust the KJV and Strong's. If it a'int broke, why fix it?

Lisa

... It's broke.

Seriously, biblical scholarship didn't stop after the turn of the century. There's been so much great research and study! Please don't ignore it

 

[BigBadWlf]

I'm going to say that I've seen a difference between Lisa and those that the OP is describing -- in fact I've not seen them on this thread. From what I've seen of Lisa, she admits that it homosexuality being a sin is based on her belief system and, as such, she recognizes that she cannot force others to live based on her belief. At the same time, she'd like others to give her the same respect. Now, I hope if I've misstated here that Lisa will correct me, or perhaps even just better clarify her thoughts.

The ones I see the OP describing are the ones who are convinced they know exactly what God wants, and because they claim that knowledge, they feel the right to tell others how to live. Also, since they feel they know what God wants, they feel no need to listen to anyone elses thoughts or beliefs. And what is really frustrating, they often appear to feel that anything they claim is true, regardless of how many people can provide evidence that proves them wrong (such as the idea of HIV being a gay disease).

I will also agree that you find these people on the Left and on the Right, one of the reasons I get so frustrated with politics currently.

And yet I cannot help but notice complete silence form her on the topic

 

[BigBadWlf]

... It's broke.

Seriously, biblical scholarship didn't stop after the turn of the century. There's been so much great research and study! Please don't ignore it

Agreed. There are more than a few words in Strong’s that have definitions only because they of the King James bible. And another sizable set of definitions that occur only in a single bible passage and no where else. Broken is the nicest thing one can say about Strong’s