Are all catholics universalist like JP2 was?

[simonthezealot]

EDITED to ADD: Modified Universalist...

The prior popes words...
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html


Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All
10. The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.
For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that "this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God."19

 

[narnia59]

Do we believe that salvation is only offered to a pre-select, pre-destined few? Nope.

Do we believe that God would send someone to hell simply because they lived in a time or culture where they never heard the Gospel? Nope.

Does that mean that everybody who's never heard the Gospel automatically goes to heaven? Nope.

Do we believe God is capable of justly resolving it all? Yep.

So I guess we are.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Catholic doctrine asserts that those who sincerely seek God, but for whatever reason are denied baptism, can be saved by the Grace of God, for they desire baptism implicitly. Scripture supports this view, as Acts records an encounter with several Christians who had not been baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit (having not heard of it). In other words, if you live in a country or in conditions which prevent you from pursuing the sacraments necessary for your salvation (or even hearing of the Church or Scripture for that matter), God will not hold you accountable because He knows you love Him anyway. But this is quite different from knowing of these things, having the full capacity to do them, and then consciously rejecting them.

 

[simonthezealot]

In other words, if you live in a country or in conditions which prevent you from pursuing the sacraments necessary for your salvation (or even hearing of the Church or Scripture for that matter), God will not hold you accountable because He knows you love Him anyway. But this is quite different from knowing of these things, having the full capacity to do them, and then consciously rejecting them.

Doesn't sound scriptural to me, though sadly I don't think that matters to you guys, does it?

 

[tadoflamb]

Simon,

This scripture comes to heart:

Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me. In my Fathers house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? (John 14:1-2)

I think this verse doesn't necessarily describe the geography of heaven, but the universal, all-encompassing, all inclusive, ie: catholic, heart of God. When I came into the faith I was pleasantly suprised to find that Catholicism is open to all the possibilities of God's salvation; That there is room enough in God's heart for everybody.

It's the fundamentalist "I'm saved; your not" which boxes God's salvation into one room, and for me has always been incompatible with the Christian claim of a compassionate and merciful God, and is also in part what kept me from accepting God's grace and being set on the path to salvation for so long.

God bless,

Tad

 

[tadoflamb]

Doesn't sound scriptural to me, though sadly I don't think that matters to you guys, does it?

I think it's disingenuous to imply that Catholics don't hold scripture and it's proper interpretation in the highest regard.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Doesn't sound scriptural to me, though sadly I don't think that matters to you guys, does it?

It doesn't matter what it sounds like. There are some things in Scripture difficult to understand, and some people are dull in understanding.

 

[simonthezealot]

Do we believe that God would send someone to hell simply because they lived in a time or culture where they never heard the Gospel? Nope.

Is this something you ascertained from; Scripture? (T)radition? or divine revelation?

 

[simonthezealot]

Simon,

This scripture comes to heart:



I think this verse doesn't necessarily describe the geography of heaven, but the universal, all-encompassing, all inclusive, ie: catholic, heart of God. When I came into the faith I was pleasantly suprised to find that Catholicism is open to all the possibilities of God's salvation; That there is room enough in God's heart for everybody.

It's the fundamentalist "I'm saved; your not" which boxes God's salvation into one room, and for me has always been incompatible with the Christian claim of a compassionate and merciful God, and is also in part what kept me from accepting God's grace and being set on the path to salvation for so long.

God bless,

Tad

Tad if persons can be saved outside of Christ, why the cross for crying out loud...

The mansion verse is about comforting His disciple who were in anxt over His departing.

 

[simonthezealot]

It doesn't matter what it sounds like. There are some things in Scripture difficult to understand, and some people are dull in understanding.

The things that are hard to understand are Non-essentials in regards to our salvation. The gospel is very clear; repent and embrace Christ as YOUR Savior.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Is this something you ascertained from; Scripture? (T)radition? or divine revelation?

All of the above is the usual answer. You should know that by now. If you're actually interested in refuting Catholic theology, you'll have to be more incisive than repeatedly implying that Catholicism is a one-party state of illiterates.

 

[simonthezealot]

I think it's disingenuous to imply that Catholics don't hold scripture and it's proper interpretation in the highest regard.

Tad i've shown where catholics view scripture as dead letters outside their "proper" interpretation...Stamped with the N.O.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

The things that are hard to understand are Non-essentials in regards to our salvation.

Apparently not -- the essentials are difficult too. The history of heresy provides sufficient evidence.

 

[simonthezealot]

The history of heresy provides sufficient evidence.

The fruits of the Spirit will always define the difference.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Tad i've shown where catholics view scripture as dead letters outside their "proper" interpretation...Stamped with the N.O.

All I've seen from you are shallow attempts to frame selected elements of Catholic theology and statements according to your preconceived opinion of the Church, betraying a profound ignorance of theology in general. I have absolutely zero qualms in exposing your bluff.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

The fruits of the Spirit will always define the difference.

You're right. Most heresies have fallen away. The Catholic Church remains, and stronger in faith, charity, and love than ever. What more fruit do you want? Ted Haggard? :o

 

[simonthezealot]

You're right. Most heresies have fallen away. The Catholic Church remains, and stronger in faith, charity, and love than ever. What more fruit do you want? Ted Haggard? :o

Nice AC...Sounds like your filled with love in your heart.

 

[narnia59]

Is this something you ascertained from; Scripture? (T)radition? or divine revelation?

It is the teaching of the church, which is satisfactory for me, because Scripture teaches that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and the Holy Spirit will be with it always. Which works out fine, because it correlates quite well with the Biblical notion that God is both just and merciful.

Of course, I could have a theology that speaks to an 'age of reason', even though it's found nowhere in the Bible. And that as long as you're fortunate enough to die before you get too old, then you automatically get to go to heaven. So much for needing a Savior.

But if I live in a place where I've never heard the Gospel and am unfortunate enough to live past this man-made doctrine of 'age of reason', then I am automatically condemned to hell, even though I never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel and either accept or reject it. Pre-destination 101 with a geographical twist. God pre-destined me to hell by making sure I was born in a place where I never had an opportunity for salvation.

By the way, your definition of 'universalist' is off though. It means that all will be saved, not that all have access to salvation. Big difference, and JPII in no way ever said that all will be saved, nor has the church ever taught that.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Nice AC...Sounds like your filled with love in your heart.

You have a strange impression of love if you think it allows me to passively watch while I see you framing disingenuous arguments against the Church. I'll give you what you seek -- if you're sincerely interested in debating Catholic theology, I'm game. But if your only object is to demean the Church, you open yourself to demeaning. I'll ask for penance later -- you're just SOL.

 

[simonthezealot]

All I've seen from you are shallow attempts to frame selected elements of Catholic theology and statements according to your preconceived opinion of the Church, betraying a profound ignorance of theology in general. I have absolutely zero qualms in exposing your bluff.

And from you fancy word gymnastics and personal attacks rather than a defense. Admit it, Catholic theology promotes a modified universalist view of salvation...That is clearly UNbiblical, no wonder the desire to evangelise is seemingly non existant with in their confines, it is unnecessary to share the gospel. Eeeks now that I think about it, it's rather devilish isn't it?