Even Jesus did not heal at will ...

[JimfromOhio]

With what specifically?

Do you believe that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit can have different wills?

It is God's will that we submit to the Holy Spirit and keep on filling (Ephesians 5:18), Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same and ONE God. God does not desire to destroy my will, but to sanctify “my will into His will”. I will repeat A.W. Tozer's quote: Faith is not the ability to persuade ourselves for something we desire will come to pass if we only wish hard enough. God is who He is as Himself. He does not become what we believe. God is "I AM That I AM" and that only when we know what kind of God He is, we are to adjust our entire being to the concept of Who He really is. Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality by the knowing God as "I AM that I AM", with the help from the Holy Spirit, we produce strong faith. True faith is not the ability to visualize unseen things to the satisfaction of our imperfect minds, but rather the spiritual power to trust Christ as Who He is.

 

[franky67]

It is God's will that we submit to the Holy Spirit and keep on filling (Ephesians 5:18), Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same and ONE God. God does not desire to destroy my will, but to sanctify “my will into His will”. I will repeat A.W. Tozer's quote: Faith is not the ability to persuade ourselves for something we desire will come to pass if we only wish hard enough. God is who He is as Himself. He does not become what we believe. God is "I AM That I AM" and that only when we know what kind of God He is, we are to adjust our entire being to the concept of Who He really is. Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality by the knowing God as "I AM that I AM", with the help from the Holy Spirit, we produce strong faith. True faith is not the ability to visualize unseen things to the satisfaction of our imperfect minds, but rather the spiritual power to trust Christ as Who He is.

Jim, the question was do the Father , Son, and Holy Spirit have the same will?

Your answer above doesn't address the question. The answer would be YES

 

[Always in His Presence]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

I submit this to you,

Jesus and the Father had separate wills when He was here on earth.

Jesus in the garden prayed " saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

If they were the same - He would not have had to sanctify Himself to His Father's will.

 

[JimB]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

But this is true only to the extent you believe the Kenosis of Christ and how much of divinity he “emptied himself).

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation (kenoo, emptied himself), taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, (Phil 2)
​

If Christ was a human in every sense of the word, as we are human, with all of our limitations and temptations, i.e., in ALL points like as we are (see Heb. 2.17; 4.15) then I cannot accept this view. His will would not have been perfect unless He had chosen God’s will above His own (which he did, John 4.34). Christ was “made perfect” only through His willful and complete obedience to God.

If, however, I believe Jesus was still God while He was in the flesh—you know, fully God while fully man (an unscriptural concept, IMO)—then I can accept your view. But then His temptations were not like mine (because, being divine, He would have had an edge) and I cannot truly follow His example (because I am human while He is divine). Christ had to be like me in every sense of the word, limitations, warts and all, if He is to be a real example for me to follow in His steps.

But all of this opens up a whole new discussion. I only mention it to show how we may approach this question from two separate perspectives.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

 

[JimB]

I just can't grasp that at all, can you help me see why you would say that?
Having suffered both emotional and physical pain, at times in extreme measure, I cannot imagine why anybody would ever say, "No healing thanks."





That is true, but God's will is not always performed in this world, and I don't have an answer.

I know a lady who is a hypochondriac and chooses to be ill, even if if she has to fake it, because it serves her felt need for attention. When she is “sick” (real or imagined), people who are not wise to her show her more attention and concern than otherwise and so it serves her emotional needs to be physically ill for the emotional value the attention gains her.

I also knew a man who is drawing disability and Medicaid for an injury he suffered that left him handicapped. He does not want to be healed because it would effect his government allowance.

Those are a couple of reasons people do not want to be healed.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

I dig it!

So let me ask - would it be wisdom to say, that unless we had a specific word of knowledge about a person to be healed, or unless by the prompting of Holy Spirit to pray for someone's healing, there's no assurance that a healing will occur? I mean, hearing specifically from God would be that - a word of knowledge or a prompting of Holy Spirit, yes?

Thanks all!

The Word of Knowledge is a good manifestation of the Spirit - but why can't you just talk to the Father and have Him tell you out of your relationship with Him?

I don't pray for people's healings - there's no scriptural support for asking God in prayer to heal anyone. The disciples were not told to pray for peoples healings:

Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
​

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
​

72 OTHERS - not even the disciples - Jesus sent them out - to do what?

8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'
​

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2 Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,
​

The man got healed by Peter's words and actions, but Peter NEVER asked God to heal him - Peter never asked if it was God's will to heal the man - he just used his authority and healed the man.

That's what's missing today - that's where we are missing it!

The deep personal day to day relationship with God the Father through Jesus. So personal and so deep that we can instantly know His will and help people. So deep and personal that we interact with Father just like Jesus, the one we're called to imitate, did.

But instead of the multiple multiple examples of how Jesus and the disciples healed through this relationship-, we've reduced knowing God's will to trial and error -

Well, if we pray and we don't see them ......, God must be trying to teach them something - or it must not be God's will.

We have pastors in pulpits that admit they don't know what the will of God is, never seeing this:

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

​

I've been thrown out of Word of Faith circles because I preached this hard. We're not just supposed to know His will - but prove it.

It's time we got off our high horse of (I think this might be why), and got on our knees and spent real time fellowshipping with the Father so we can train ourselves to hear His voice.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, the question was do the Father , Son, and Holy Spirit have the same will?

Your answer above doesn't address the question. The answer would be YES

The answer is YES.....We have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, we also have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and, we also have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. God is the Creator, and yet, all things are made by Christ. All have the same "will". The Holy Spirit is always interceding for us, always praying for us, always coming before the throne of God in perfect harmony with God's will. The Spirit is the one who works out that will of God and that desire of Christ by holding on to us, interceding for us incessantly as the great priest who dwells within us. All things are working together for good because the Holy Spirit is interceding for us, because the Son at the right hand of God is interceding for us. The outcome is not based on my Faith or my will but rather God's will for my life as I serve Him on this earth.

 

[probinson]

I submit this to you,

Jesus and the Father had separate wills when He was here on earth.

Jesus in the garden prayed " saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

If they were the same - He would not have had to sanctify Himself to His Father's will.

Now there's some food for thought that will mess up someone's theology...

But I don't think that shows that they had "separate" wills, exactly. It shows just how much Jesus wanted His will to conform and be identical to the will of the Father.

 

[enoch son]

If one reads this in the greek it go something like this. "Father there sin is coming on me to fast I think I'm not going to make it. But you do our will"

 

[JimfromOhio]

Now there's some food for thought that will mess up someone's theology...

But I don't think that shows that they had "separate" wills, exactly. It shows just how much Jesus wanted His will to conform and be identical to the will of the Father.

Yeah.. people are messed up on the topic of healing between spiritually healed (eternally saved) and physically healed (temporal healing).

 

[JimfromOhio]

If one reads this in the greek it go something like this. "Father there sin is coming on me to fast I think I'm not going to make it. But you do our will"

This kind of thinking will always get someone in trouble with God. Whatever happened to be "spirit-filled" and relying on the Holy Spirit to resist temptations?

 

[enoch son]

This kind of thinking will always get someone in trouble with God. Whatever happened to be "spirit-filled" and relying on the Holy Spirit to resist temptations?

So without your help it wasn't once and for all? that sure be littles the son of god doesn't it? But what the hack it was only His blood our mouths are more powerful then his blood. NOT!

 

[nephilimiyr]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
​

What do you think?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

Hi Jim

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

Just some thoughts...

 

[enoch son]

So much for the saying "MY FATHER AND I ARE ONE"

 

[nephilimiyr]

So much for the saying "MY FATHER AND I ARE ONE"

I don't believe anyone here has said anything that would disagree with the doctrine of the trinity.

 

[enoch son]

Thats the point what do you think He saw out of His eyes some little green men saying over here? He saw what the father saw the same thing. It was the same will.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Hi Jim

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

Just some thoughts...

John Wesley explained perfect about Trinity. "Tell me how it is that in this room there are three candles and but one light, and I will explain to you the mode of the divine existence."

The Holy Spirit is within us which is the same as God is in us as we describe to others that we have Jesus in our hearts. The Spirit is our intercessor, our personal indwelling intercessor interceding according to the will of God. The Father will always hear and always answer the intercessory prayer of the Spirit because the Spirit always prays according to God's will and God always does His will.

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Jude 1:20
But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

 

[LeadWorship]

The Word of Knowledge is a good manifestation of the Spirit - but why can't you just talk to the Father and have Him tell you out of your relationship with Him?

I don't pray for people's healings - there's no scriptural support for asking God in prayer to heal anyone. The disciples were not told to pray for peoples healings:

Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
​

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
​

72 OTHERS - not even the disciples - Jesus sent them out - to do what?

8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'
​

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2 Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,
​

The man got healed by Peter's words and actions, but Peter NEVER asked God to heal him - Peter never asked if it was God's will to heal the man - he just used his authority and healed the man.

That's what's missing today - that's where we are missing it!

The deep personal day to day relationship with God the Father through Jesus. So personal and so deep that we can instantly know His will and help people. So deep and personal that we interact with Father just like Jesus, the one we're called to imitate, did.

But instead of the multiple multiple examples of how Jesus and the disciples healed through this relationship-, we've reduced knowing God's will to trial and error -

Well, if we pray and we don't see them ......, God must be trying to teach them something - or it must not be God's will.

We have pastors in pulpits that admit they don't know what the will of God is, never seeing this:

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

​

I've been thrown out of Word of Faith circles because I preached this hard. We're not just supposed to know His will - but prove it.

It's time we got off our high horse of (I think this might be why), and got on our knees and spent real time fellowshipping with the Father so we can train ourselves to hear His voice.

Awesome Post, Brother! I agree 100%, and Praise God that you are preaching this. Have you had the chance to read the book The Crucified Ones ? It very much hits on what you just described above! Hallelujah! Preach it brother!

 

[nephilimiyr]

John Wesley explained perfect about Trinity. "Tell me how it is that in this room there are three candles and but one light, and I will explain to you the mode of the divine existence."

The Holy Spirit is within us which is the same as God is in us as we describe to others that we have Jesus in our hearts. The Spirit is our intercessor, our personal indwelling intercessor interceding according to the will of God. The Father will always hear and always answer the intercessory prayer of the Spirit because the Spirit always prays according to God's will and God always does His will.

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Jude 1:20
But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

I didn't say anything in my post about the trinity, faith, or praying in the Holy Spirit. None of what you wrote here pertains to anything that I wrote. I was talking about the desire and will of God, not the trinity.
Perhaps you'd like to try again?

 

[pinetree]

HEALING debates which twist people's stomachs in knots and give them indigestion!!! I LOVE IT!!!!