If you turn people off from God, whose holds the responsibility?

[Mling]

It is incredibly self-serving to stab somebody with a stick and knock them off balance and then say, "It's his own fault he chose to fall."

 

[Polycarp_fan]

I'm not sure why you are attacking Beanieboy in this way, as I find him to be one of the kindest and most polite posters. I too, try to be kind to people, including Christians, and would like to get along. There are many Christians here that I do respect, even if I may disagree with them. Though I will admit, I'm not perfect.

As for me, I'm not trying to change the Christian religion or what Christians believe in. That is between you and God. OTOH, I live in a country where the majority are Christian, and as such I seek to speak with them here to share ideas, debate, and to find things we can agree on.

I may have been thinking of an atheist when I started writing. But anyway, I see no reason for anyone to say "I'm gay," or whatever, and I don't believe his story. Your sex life shouldn't be on display and most Christians living as Christians should live, are extremely nice. But even some of those get hammered by the anti crowd. Look at how James Dobson is treated. You don't get a better example of a nice Christian than that guy. But, because he stands his ground on moral issues pertaining to children, he gets bashed by the "tolerance and diversity" crowd.

Beanieboy (it seems to me) was ridiculing Christians in a sneaky way. Why is that meanness so acceptable to you? If Christians don't believe that "anything goes" morally, spiritually or socially, we are meanies. Even though "gays" are fundamentalists in absolute terms to make a Southern Baptist gasp. They believe that they have to be gay their entire lives. What nonsense. A human being is a human being because he/she can make choices. Animals do not.

BTW, where is this "majority Christians?" I have been in Ameica my whole life and I just don't see it. The New Testament is the guidelines for Christian definition, and I just don't see many people living as the Gospels and the Apostles have described it. Even demons believe Jesus is who He said He was.

 

[Beanieboy]

Jesus is not a sissy. The problem is when we Christians sink to the level of the bullies taunting us. It's a sin to do this, but it is a very human thing to do. YOU, for example, are not here at "Christian Forums" for a nice walk in the park with a Christian. You're picking a fight and protesting getting what you are giving.

I didn't say, "all Christians are bad." I gave specific examples of, imho, bad representatives of Christ. (Wouldn't you agree that they weren't representing Christ?) And I didn't provoke them. I simply didn't agree with them. For example, I wouldn't agree that Romans 12:9 is justification to hate others. Do you think it is? Do you think that is what the passage is about? I'm guessing not. Do you believe these people, who do things in the name of Jesus, are responsible (as the Pharisees) for turning people away or off from God? That's all I'm asking. And if they are responsible, what is the fate of the nonbeliever who rejected a false representation of God?

Many (if not all) of the people going at Christians here, at schools, and in social politics and the courts, goad and goad them with such insulting and degrading language (and social and educational goals) that I for one fight the bully with a dose of their own medicine. I'm sinning doing that. But it is hard to allow an atheist or some pagan, gay guy or lesbian, to ridicule us for NOT wanting their lives and really, making a choice to leave it. YOU, and they, think that is hateful.

I've quoted in another thread how some Christians called for the death penalty of gays. Pat Robertson blamed gays for 9/11, and huricanes in Florida. Some people within the Church continue to fight against gay (civil) marriage. I remember the 1980s, when gays were trying to get protection for being unlawfully fired for being gay, and guess who opposed that?

One has to look at what is being done against gay people, pagans, etc, to truly understand where the cynicism or anger is coming from. It is a reaction against injustice.

I for one will stand with you if YOU stop the dishonesty and pretend that you just want to get along with Christians. We Christians know what you want because we used to be you. No one is born a Christian. That takes a another birth process.

I have friends that are Christian. I work with Christians. My family is Christian. I'm not pretending. However, these people are not attacking me for my beliefs, nor I for theirs.

What you are doing here is a bit dishonest. You want to bully Christians and you want them to take it. I got news for you, we are Americans as well as Christians. Americans protest tyranny. You in your way and we in ours. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT . . . when you present that we should be loving. It's just hard when you can see your adversary for what they really want and what they really are.

I'm unclear how I am "bullying" you. Can you explain that to me?

I can prove "from the Bible" where you are right about how Christians should act towards you. How about dealing with us that same way. Remember the good Samaritan?

Of course! Buddhism teaches that I should treat others the way I would want to be treated, and demonstrate loving kindness, and purity in thought, word, and deed.

I'm unclear why you seem to take this as a personal attack, unless I have hit a nerve. If you were one of the people on the other board, perhaps you can explain yourself. If not, then it isn't directed at you, but rather, asking you to look at the situation, and shed some light on where you believe the responsibility lies.

 

[Beanieboy]

I may have been thinking of an atheist when I started writing.

If you see my profile, I am Buddhist. I believe in a higher power, and am not an athiest. Sounds like a misunderstanding.

But anyway, I see no reason for anyone to say "I'm gay," or whatever, and I don't believe his story. Your sex life shouldn't be on display and most Christians living as Christians should live, are extremely nice.

If people are going to start threads about homosexuality, I think that I can say, "I'm gay, and..." I don't mention my sex life. I simply state that I am gay, and talk from my experience, so if someone says, "Homosexuals aren't "gay" or happy, I have every right to correct them, because it is not the truth.

Speaking of truth, Buddhism teaches that Truth is unflappable. You should be able to throw it in the wash, throw in the dryer, and it will come out unscathed, unchanged.

You don't believe my story? Go over there. Read. Find out the truth. Does this represent all Christians? Of course not. Nor did I suggest that in the OP. However, it is truth that such Christians exist. That is what we are discussing - those who act like the Pharisees of Jesus' time, whom he seemed to get a little angry at for leading people away from God, saying: Mathew 23

13But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, (O)because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
15"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one (Q)proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of (R)hell as yourselves.
33"You serpents, (AF)you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of (AG)hell?

But even some of those get hammered by the anti crowd. Look at how James Dobson is treated. You don't get a better example of a nice Christian than that guy. But, because he stands his ground on moral issues pertaining to children, he gets bashed by the "tolerance and diversity" crowd.

I will have to agree to disagree with you on that. I have met far nicer Christians, and ones whose focus isn't the sexual orientation of cartoon characters.

Beanieboy (it seems to me) was ridiculing Christians in a sneaky way. Why is that meanness so acceptable to you? If Christians don't believe that "anything goes" morally, spiritually or socially, we are meanies. Even though "gays" are fundamentalists in absolute terms to make a Southern Baptist gasp. They believe that they have to be gay their entire lives. What nonsense. A human being is a human being because he/she can make choices. Animals do not.

BTW, where is this "majority Christians?" I have been in Ameica my whole life and I just don't see it. The New Testament is the guidelines for Christian definition, and I just don't see many people living as the Gospels and the Apostles have described it. Even demons believe Jesus is who He said He was.

Again, I didn't not say it was the majority of Christians. I'm simply stating that if that site has them, then I'm sure more exist, and that is what the OP is addressing.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

If you ask a lot of people why they aren't Christian, many will say, "I don't have a problem with Christ. I have a problem with his followers."

Let me give you a few anecdotes.

One "christian" on another site told me that the most loving thing who could do (because I am gay) is hate me. If he loved me, he would be hand holding my way to hell. The fact that I am Buddhist, not really Christian seemed to be second to the importance of my sexual orientation.

Another, following Bob Enyart, said that Jesus mocked people, called them dogs, swine, and even called his disciple Satan, so he could call me the most derogatory names imaginable, again, as a sign of his love. The moderators said that to chastize him was the same as condoning homosexuality.

Another quoted Psalms 58:10
The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
She then told me that she couldn't wait to bathe her feet in my shed blood at Judgement.

Another time she quoted Romans 12:9
Your love must be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.
Therefore, she abhored me, because I was evil.
So, I went and read Romans 12:


Finally, in frustration, someone yelled, "WHY WON'T YOU CONVERT??"
I said, "This is between me and God, not me and you. But I look at your fruit. It is angry, rude, arrogant, crass, vengeful, unmerciful, unkind, not gentle, and you seem to look forward to my eternal destruction, rather than want me to be saved. So, in good conscience, I can't convert. I don't want to become like anyone of you."

They answered, "Well, fine. But that isn't good enough for God."

What do you think? If someone is being a terrible witness, and turning people off or away from God with a message of hate, or painting God as an ogre that would as soon kill you as look at you, who has the responsibility of rejecting God? The unsaved, or the christian?

I know that many here are thinking of me when they read this Op. You probably had me somewhere in mind when you created this Op. That is ok.

Here is my answer to this Op.

If a Christian is trying to warn you about the wrath to come; they are not being hateful. If a Christian is insulting you for the sake of just insulting you; they are being bad. GOD does not want us insulting people for the sake of just insulting. You can not find this in Scripture.

However; if a Christian is Preaching and Teaching the Word of GOD; and a homosexual just happens to get offended because he/she doesn't like being told that they are sinful and wicked, and that they are going to burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity: that is a different story. It is not the Christians responsibility to look after your emotions. It is not the Christians fault that you are offended at the Gospel. If the truth offends you; that is not the Christians fault/ responsibility.

The truth must be preached and taught.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

I didn't say, "all Christians are bad." I gave specific examples of, imho, bad representatives of Christ. (Wouldn't you agree that they weren't representing Christ?)

Have you ever read the epistles? Many, if not most, call out the bad Christians to stop what they are doing (in some cases inappropriate sex, gay included). Read James for starters. It gets worse in Jude and John.

And I didn't provoke them. I simply didn't agree with them.

Bunk. Excuse me if I don't believe you. Gays use the shock value for one intent.

For example, I wouldn't agree that Romans 12:9 is justification to hate others. Do you think it is?

FROM Paul, who wrote that love is the greatest thing of all. It is the GLBT and other "anything goesians" that demand that love means anythin goes. That is the definition of a prostitute, not love. And actually, prostitues have limits.

Do you think that is what the passage is about? I'm guessing not. Do you believe these people, who do things in the name of Jesus, are responsible (as the Pharisees) for turning people away or off from God?

I believe you are correct in your assertion here. That doesn't mean I support gay marriage. Or anything else gays do.

That's all I'm asking. And if they are responsible, what is the fate of the nonbeliever who rejected a false representation of God?

How many Jews became Christians that lived under the rule and authority of the Pharisees. You do know that all this went down in real history I hope.

I've quoted in another thread how some Christians called for the death penalty of gays.

And they can be properly dealt with BY the New Testament. There is no violence in Christian culture and community as written IN the Gospels and letters. Are these people here at this site? I'll deal with them as I do gay theologians.

Pat Robertson blamed gays for 9/11, and huricanes in Florida.

That is not a bad perspective. God will judge wicked nations. That is Biblical truth. Read any book of the Prophets. Don't bother with Revelation. It smokes bad countries, but it is to wierd to really get into to unless you're ready for it.

Some people within the Church continue to fight against gay (civil) marriage.

As well they should. Watching Sodom arise again is horrifying. No Christian can support and promote sin. And notice that the slippery slope is a probale fact. "Now," we have gay marriage in places called Christian Churches. The apostasy mentioned in the New Testament forming before our very eyes.

I remember the 1980s, when gays were trying to get protection for being unlawfully fired for being gay, and guess who opposed that?

I did. I was terrified of all the AIDS all of the gay guys were getting. And when others got it from blood transfusions, I went very Biblical "in my mind."

One has to look at what is being done against gay people, pagans, etc, to truly understand where the cynicism or anger is coming from. It is a reaction against injustice.

We Christians are reacting to all of the shattered lives on all of the city streets and morgues because of all the pagan practices. The gay thing is just a sign of how bad things are on a societal level.

I have friends that are Christian. I work with Christians. My family is Christian. I'm not pretending. However, these people are not attacking me for my beliefs, nor I for theirs.

How cliche. Gays hate it when we Christians say "I have gays friends . . ." But anyway, I am not condemning anyone. I am just holding on firmly to the truth of scripture. I can show how people that espouse violence are just as wrong as those that promote the GLBT agenda in Churches.

I'm unclear how I am "bullying" you. Can you explain that to me?

As soon as you say "I'm gay," that is a shot across the bow, designed to put fear in your opposition. It is a threat that I better not say anything about gay being wrong. I don't. I just agree with Jesus and the Apostles about that. Ther is NO same-gender marriage in the Bible. That is why the Bible is attacked and altered by gay theology.

Of course! Buddhism teaches that I should treat others the way I would want to be treated, and demonstrate loving kindness, and purity in thought, word, and deed.

Sidhartha left his wife and child. Be that as it may, your really believe you are going to become nothingness. You came from nothing and are going to nothingness, and I'm supposed to hope for enlightened dialog? I can't agree with nonsense. Of course there are many different kinds of Buddhism. And yes, many Buddhists are nice people. But far more people have been slaughtered by Buddhists in just the Second World War, than in all of the history of Christianity. Of course I do know they were accompanied by ancestor worshippers and Shinto's. Interestingly enough, some of the people they killed were other Buddhists.

[quoteI'm unclear why you seem to take this as a personal attack, unless I have hit a nerve. If you were one of the people on the other board, perhaps you can explain yourself. If not, then it isn't directed at you, but rather, asking you to look at the situation, and shed some light on where you believe the responsibility lies.[/quote]

C'mon man, you "hit a nerve" by design. Be honest. Your op was designed to slight Christians in general. Even you can dismantle their behaviors and statements with just a bit of Biblical study. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But most non and anti Christians on the WWW go off about Christians.

But Maren (wo has over 2000 posts) says you're cool and I'll agree, for the record. Most Buddhists are.

 

[Autumnleaf]

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:13-14
​

And if the only preacher they have heard is preaching hatred toward them instead of hope? While Christians don't bear the responsibility if an honest attempt of loving evangelism goes unheeded, that does not answer the OP.

If they are deliberately turning people away from the message that "Whosoever meaneth me," can they truly claim to have no responsibility in their turning away?

The preacher's job is to preach the truth. If they fail then its on them. No matter who someone is and where they live God is there. There he makes his case.

 

[Autumnleaf]

You do not choose what you believe.

This is why the idea that faith is a virtue is utterly ridiculous. If anyone has responsibility for the failure of people to believe one thing or the other, it is the people who already believe it and attempt to persuade them. If your arguments are not convincing enough, it is no fault of the unbeliever that they are not convinced. If your arguments are actually offputting, that's even worse.

We all choose what we believe and what we do. It is a personal choice we make based on what we have learned. Its not my responsibility to determine whether you should believe in God or not. That is up to you.

 

[Verv]

If you are so shortsighted that one person can turn you off from God you probably are not a good candidate for 'having an open mind' anyways.

You are judgmental and your Pep Pep should've explained to you about how some people are good and some people are bad, and that applies to "every group of people, even us upstanding Christians if you can believe it!"

 

[Beanieboy]

C'mon man, you "hit a nerve" by design. Be honest. Your op was designed to slight Christians in general. Even you can dismantle their behaviors and statements with just a bit of Biblical study. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But most non and anti Christians on the WWW go off about Christians.

But Maren (wo has over 2000 posts) says you're cool and I'll agree, for the record. Most Buddhists are.

I have said what is true. You can choose to believe it or not believe it.

I agree that people go off about Christians, but can't you also agree from the examples that I have posted, that you could at least understand why?

 

[Beanieboy]

If you are so shortsighted that one person can turn you off from God you probably are not a good candidate for 'having an open mind' anyways.

You are judgmental and your Pep Pep should've explained to you about how some people are good and some people are bad, and that applies to "every group of people, even us upstanding Christians if you can believe it!"

I find it curious that I give you multiple examples of what I am talking about, and all you can come up with is that it is my problem because you (misunderstandling) see it as one person.

Along with the OP and a handful of examples (I was there for 3 years - that was the tip of the iceberg), I also mentioned Falwell, Robertson and 9/11, etc. I can give you more example, but the thing is, these people are misrepresentiing and abusing the bible. (Fortunately, I went to Sunday School and had to study the Bible, so I can call someone on claiming that Romans 12:9 is their command to hate me.)

But it is not me I'm concerned about. It's about the numerous souls that come to them, and the God reflected from these people's hearts is one of arrogance, condemnation, haughtiness, self-exhaltation, etc.

Or does that not concern you?

 

[Beanieboy]

We all choose what we believe and what we do. It is a personal choice we make based on what we have learned. Its not my responsibility to determine whether you should believe in God or not. That is up to you.

So what do you say of the verses from Mathew that Jesus said to the Pharisees? Is it not the responsibility of the Pharisees that their converts believe in God? Is it not their responsibility that they have closed the gates of heaven? That they have made the twice the disciple of hell that they are themselves?

Why was Jesus angry?

 

[Paulos23]

I know that many here are thinking of me when they read this Op. You probably had me somewhere in mind when you created this Op. That is ok.

Here is my answer to this Op.

If a Christian is trying to warn you about the wrath to come; they are not being hateful. If a Christian is insulting you for the sake of just insulting you; they are being bad. GOD does not want us insulting people for the sake of just insulting. You can not find this in Scripture.

However; if a Christian is Preaching and Teaching the Word of GOD; and a homosexual just happens to get offended because he/she doesn't like being told that they are sinful and wicked, and that they are going to burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity: that is a different story. It is not the Christians responsibility to look after your emotions. It is not the Christians fault that you are offended at the Gospel. If the truth offends you; that is not the Christians fault/ responsibility.

The truth must be preached and taught.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

Sorry, but threating people with hellfire and hanging is not conducive to converting people to Christianity. At this point I would not be surprised if you pushed more people away from Christianity then towards. (At least your version of Christianity)

 

[katautumn]

It falls on the follower. I will find the verse, but I know it also says that those who turn people away from the eyes of God will be punished on judgment day.

It's a shame knowing that if that is true there are going to be an awful lot of Christians who spent their days sitting online thinking they were winning souls the "easy way" all the while they're turning people away from Christ with their repugnant ways are going to be in for a shock. Since being a member of CF I've been told I'm not capable of loving or showing compassion, that the worst Christians are still better than the best non-christians, that we (non-christians) are ruining CF from the inside-out, that my marriage is a crock and based on lust because marriage is between one man, one woman, after being married in a church in the eyes of God and witnesses (this was said after someone made the comment that only Christian marriages were meaningful), that I'm going to burn in hell because I'm divorced and remarried. I don't even care to go on.

Of course, it was all done in the spirit of "loving correction".

 

[cantata]

Faith to Christians come from experiences in the real world. That is why your arguments are not convincing and actually are offputting to us. We are unbelievers of the world and its ways. We're in it, just not of it. Or, we try not to be.

I don't understand how this is relevant to what I said.

All I'm interested in is the following phenomenon. Certain Christians talk about God and behave in such a way that many quite reasonable and empathetic people are inclined to think to themselves, "If this is the God of Christianity, he is not a just God, or a loving God, but a cruel and spiteful one - in short, he is not a God worthy of my worship." Other people "preach the Gospel" or talk about Christianity in such a way that it simply sounds utterly ridiculous to non-Christians (and, I would guess, non-theists in particular), claiming that the earth is a mere 6000 years old, and so on.

Now it seems to me that people like this are suggesting to non-Christians that Christianity is not the way to go for the empathetic and rational person. They seem to be following a despotic God and they seem to believe in myths that require an utterly peculiar interpretation of the facts of the world. I'm not trying to be disparaging; I'm just describing what it looks like from the outside.

Of course, there are hundreds of Christians who really do behave in a Christlike way, and who really do understand how to appreciate the true wonder of the natural world alongside their faith. I have every respect for them, and I find most of their arguments acceptable as a basis for personal faith, although I don't share their beliefs. I certainly don't find those people offputting. But unfortunately, they are usually not as vocal as the Christians preaching fire and brimstone and young earth creationism.

Now perhaps you find my arguments unconvincing, and that's your prerogative. But you must remember that from my position, it doesn't really matter, in terms of your future or mine, whether or not you come round and believe me. You may end up spending your life believing some things that aren't true, and that makes me sad, but on the other hand, that's not so bad - everyone believes some falsehoods. However, the difference is that the Christian holds a very different view about the consequences of failure to believe. Most Christians believe that your eternal salvation is at stake. And that is why they have, from their point of view, a greater responsibility than the non-theist to present their arguments convincingly, to try to empathise with the people with whom they disagree and act and speak accordingly.

BTW, you, a Queer, non-theist, are here at this "Christian Forum" why? And if its added strawberry jam, I'm with you at least there.

I'm doing a philosophy and theology degree. My experiences here have proved highly relevant to my degree, especially the Christian ethics side of things. Not that it's any of your business. I certainly don't see what my sexuality has to do with it. What are you doing here?

 

[cantata]

We all choose what we believe and what we do. It is a personal choice we make based on what we have learned. Its not my responsibility to determine whether you should believe in God or not. That is up to you.

I really don't see how this is true. Belief is not a choice. Can you choose to believe you have five legs, or that cows are green, or that Britney Spears is the president of France?

Belief is never chosen. It happens to people.

If you are so shortsighted that one person can turn you off from God you probably are not a good candidate for 'having an open mind' anyways.

You are judgmental and your Pep Pep should've explained to you about how some people are good and some people are bad, and that applies to "every group of people, even us upstanding Christians if you can believe it!"

It's all very well saying people should have an open mind, but when you're told by a Christian that everything about you is vile and worthy of the worst kind of punishment, it's pretty hard not to be put off Christianity for good. In my life, I have been mistreated by certain Christian "friends" in the most insidious and subtle ways, as a direct result of their attempts to convert me. I can tell you now, it is horrible to have your trust abused in that way, and it is certainly profoundly offputting.

 

[Athene]

I know that many here are thinking of me when they read this Op. You probably had me somewhere in mind when you created this Op. That is ok.

Here is my answer to this Op.

If a Christian is trying to warn you about the wrath to come; they are not being hateful. If a Christian is insulting you for the sake of just insulting you; they are being bad. GOD does not want us insulting people for the sake of just insulting. You can not find this in Scripture.

However; if a Christian is Preaching and Teaching the Word of GOD; and a homosexual just happens to get offended because he/she doesn't like being told that they are sinful and wicked, and that they are going to burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity: that is a different story. It is not the Christians responsibility to look after your emotions. It is not the Christians fault that you are offended at the Gospel. If the truth offends you; that is not the Christians fault/ responsibility.

The truth must be preached and taught.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

It is our responsibility to not be a stumbling block to others. 1 Cor 8:1-9, Romans 14:13, these verses speak of our interactions with other Christians but it's ludicrous to suppose that we only have to be attentive to fellow believers and treat non-Christians any which way we please.

 

[Maren]

I want to say upfront that, at least from where I sit, you seem like a fairly nice guy. I think if we knew each other in real life that we could be friends. Unfortunately, I may come across a bit harsh in this post and, if I do, don't take it as my trying to attack you but rather to show you why several here object so strongly to what you say.

I may have been thinking of an atheist when I started writing.

And I'm not sure what that has to do anything. I know some truly wonderful atheists; some are here and some I know in my life. While they are not religious, or claim their morals are from God, but still seek to find the best in everyone and treat them according to the Golden Rule. I don't believe we should judge people based on a single trait, like their religion (or lack thereof). In fact, it seems to be one of the messages Jesus was teaching with the story of the Good Samaritan.

But anyway, I see no reason for anyone to say "I'm gay," or whatever, and I don't believe his story. Your sex life shouldn't be on display

And this is where you appear to be hypocritical. You ignore the fact that heterosexuality is so accepted that people shout the equivalent of "I'm heterosexual" daily and it isn't noticed. Wedding rings, at least to this point, pretty much are saying "I'm a sexually active heterosexual." When a heterosexual kiss each other, they're saying they are heterosexual. But this is so accepted we actually have a weekly section in the newspaper that talks about the various couples that are proclaiming their desire to be heterosexual together. We see this type of activity so frequently that we never even think about it meaning that these people are declaring their heterosexuality.

By contrast, you seem to be saying that if two gays kiss in public or tell people they want to get married they are only screaming, "I AM GAY". If they dare say that they are being bullied because someone thinks they are gay, you find that as them proclaiming their sexuality.

But the fact is, just as marriages and kissing and holding hands with heterosexuals mean far more than "sex", rather it typically means that they've found someone that helps fulfill them in so many other ways, the same is true of homosexuals. Yet for some reason you can't seem to see this. Of that they fight for equal rights, so that they can have the same protections heterosexual couples get for their relationship.

As for not believing his story, I have a challenge for you. Go some place in public with lots of other people around, maybe a large store or a shopping mall. Once there, have a friend of the same sex with you and walk around holding their hand. You won't have said you are gay, in fact you are not gay, but because you are holding their hand many people will assume you are gay. Then see how you are watched, how people respond to you, what people say to you (or at you, somewhat under their breath). I think it will change your outlook about the truth of Beanieboy's claims.

and most Christians living as Christians should live, are extremely nice. But even some of those get hammered by the anti crowd.

I'll agree that most people living Christ-like lives are nice people. I've met some wonderful Christians. And I'll agree that some of them are not treated they way they should be.

OTOH, I understand why some gays here react the way they do. After you are told that you are evil, and a sinner, and the numerous other things they here you start to strike back preemptively. I'm not trying to excuse that behavior, rather I feel it is something they need to learn to overcome. But I still have empathy for them because it is something I can understand.

Look at the cartoon that has been posted around E&M here that shows a Christian beating a gay man with his cross, and when the gay man objects, the Christian complains he is being persecuted against. Think about these people who constantly hear what the feel is evil, that what they desire is evil, that they are going to hell and how tiring that much get -- much like getting beaten over the head.

Look at how James Dobson is treated. You don't get a better example of a nice Christian than that guy. But, because he stands his ground on moral issues pertaining to children, he gets bashed by the "tolerance and diversity" crowd.

I don't know James Dobson, but from his political work and things he has written he has argued that people should be allowed to discriminate against gays and that he is intellectually dishonest.

For example, in 1992 there were Colorado communities that had passed laws that provided job and housing civil rights protections based on sexual orientation. In response, James Dobson was a key player in the formation of Colorado for Family Values, that proposed Colorado Amendment 2. This amendment was designed to deny homosexuals civil rights, something the US Supreme Court claimed when they struck down Amendment 2, saying, "[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Amendment 2 classifies homosexuals not to further a proper legislative end but to make them unequal to everyone else. This Colorado cannot do. A State cannot so deem a class of persons a stranger to its laws.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"[/FONT]

Further, as far as Dobson's intellectual dishonesty, he wrote an article about how children are hurt by gay marriage. The problem was that many, if not most, of his sources say that their work was taken out of context and misrepresented. For example, Carol Gilligan, PhD wrote, "I was mortified to learn that you had distorted my work this week in a guest column you wrote in Time Magazine. "My work in no way suggests same-gender families are harmful to children or can't raise these children to be as healthy and well adjusted as those brought up in traditional households.
"I trust," her letter concluded, "that this will be the last time my work is cited by Focus on the Family."

Next, we have Dr. Kyle Pruett who said, "You cherry-picked a phrase to shore up highly (in my view) discriminatory purposes. This practice is condemned in real science, common though it may be in pseudo-science circles. There is nothing in my longitudinal research or any of my writings to support such conclusions."

After stating that his work states the opposite, he continues "On page 134 of the book you cite in your piece I wrote, 'What we do know is that there is no reason for concern about the development or psychological competence of children living with gay fathers. It is love that binds relationships, not sex.'"

He used the Center for Law and Social Policy as support, who in response said, "We haven't said anything about sexual orientation." One last example, he also claimed the research of Judith Stacey who in response stated, "This is a direct misrepresentation of the research."

I will give partial credit to Dr. Dobson for one thing though, he originally supported the research of Paul Cameron (Wikipedia), a "researcher" who has been publically censured by the Canadian and American Sociological Associations for falsely claiming to be a member and for falsifying research and misrepresenting the results, as well as had his membership revoked by the APA. While Paul Cameron once worked for Focus on the Family; Dr. Dobson disassociated himself from Paul and his Family Research Institute (made up only of Paul Cameron and his son). In an interesting twist of irony, there was a public spat between Paul Cameron and James Dobson, with Dr. Dobson being accused by Cameron of being a gay rights supporter. I only give partial credit to Dr. Dobson, however, since links from the FoF still (or at least last I checked) go to anti-gay articles that depend on Paul Cameron's false research.

Beanieboy (it seems to me) was ridiculing Christians in a sneaky way. Why is that meanness so acceptable to you?

And I think you are reading things into that post. You even appeared to claim that most who call themselves Christians, in the US, are not really Christians. I thought Beanieboy stated well that he was talking only about Christians that try to use a form of hate as love.

If Christians don't believe that "anything goes" morally, spiritually or socially, we are meanies. Even though "gays" are fundamentalists in absolute terms to make a Southern Baptist gasp.

Except that isn't what he stated. And, while you don't have the history on this board, I can vouch that Beanieboy does not feel that everyone must agree with them, he has no problem with Christians who believe he is a sinner. His problem is only with those who believe their beliefs should overrule his own or, as the OP mentions, that think abuse and lies are love.

They believe that they have to be gay their entire lives. What nonsense. A human being is a human being because he/she can make choices. Animals do not.

But this isn't supported by science. Even the majority of unscientific studies done by ex-gay groups don't support the idea that a majority of homosexuals can change. Pretty much all of the reporting shows success rates lower than 35%, and most show success rates lower than 20%. And, as I quoted elsewhere, one of the researchers that is praised by the ex-gay groups, Dr. Robert Spitzer, stated that his research shows that likely no more than 3% of gays are capable of changing their orientation.

To give you a good example; in the 1800s many Christians had the idea that being left handed was evil, that being left handed was a mark of sin. These people used Bible verses that talk about the "right hand of God" being reserved for the righteous and that it was only the evil that were on the left. And there are no examples of "left" in the Bible as being righteous. This has been a pervasive belief in Chritianity. In fact, the word sinister has it's root in the Latin word "sinistre", which meant left-handed. These Christians who felt being left handed was evil attempted to enforce that in schools. Children who were left handed were often smacked on their hands if they tried to use their left hand for a task. Or course, typically they met with failure. As we now know, being left handed is not evil, that it likely has a biological, and possibly, even a genetic cause. But like homosexuality, no gene has been found to control left-handedness.

Again, there is no evidence gays can change who they are attracted to.

BTW, where is this "majority Christians?" I have been in Ameica my whole life and I just don't see it. The New Testament is the guidelines for Christian definition, and I just don't see many people living as the Gospels and the Apostles have described it. Even demons believe Jesus is who He said He was.

I was going merely by what people themselves claim they are. While I can claim that many don't live up to what I think Christ would want, I'm not God and do not have the right to judge them; much less to see into their heart and actually know about their struggle.

 

[Autumnleaf]

So what do you say of the verses from Mathew that Jesus said to the Pharisees? Is it not the responsibility of the Pharisees that their converts believe in God? Is it not their responsibility that they have closed the gates of heaven? That they have made the twice the disciple of hell that they are themselves?

Why was Jesus angry?

Jesus never said it is their responsibility that their converts believe in God. He didn't have that much faith in them. Jesus was angry because they were claiming to speak for God but they were really lining their own pockets and feeding their own vices. Jesus had a thing against hypocrisy.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I really don't see how this is true. Belief is not a choice. Can you choose to believe you have five legs, or that cows are green, or that Britney Spears is the president of France?

Belief is never chosen. It happens to people.

Thats like saying getting pregnant just happens to people. People have to go through a few choices before they arrive at pregnancy or belief. Sometimes those choices are merely a formality, like a teen guy waking up with an urge... , in either case but they are choices just the same.