The Centrality of Scripture in Traditional Christianity

[TeddyKGB]

I agree you must interpret the scripture but in the light of other scripture and when born of the spirit or else you will miss the true interpretation. The natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit for they are spiritually discerned. God's Word is spiritual. It requires spiritual understanding to be interpreted correctly.

Which denomination or sect has "spiritual understanding"? How do you tell?

What does it say about your "spiritual understanding" that you think God's Word refers to information in a book?

 

[Inan3]

Jesus is warning of coming judgment, look at the examples he gave, the destruction of Sodom, Noah's flood, vultures gathering around corpses. He is telling his disciples when they see the judgment coming to run and not turn back. That is what he meant by let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back Luke 17:31.

Well I'm not going to get into it too much with you here but He specifically is speaking of the coming of the Son of man... the revealing of the Son of God,

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


(both names being the Lord's) and His coming back to TAKE His people OUT BEFORE the judgement which is coming on the earth. Hence one is taken the other is left. And the wording in that day and in that night is regarding the revealing of Jesus or the coming of the Son of man which happens at one time. The mention of Noah and Sodom is to point to the "condition" of man just before the judgement, liking it to the condition of men's hearts when He is revealed in the clouds, coming to take His people out before the judgement comes.

The reference that you quoated above was a warning that WHEN the Son of man is revealed don't try to go back to your house and get your goods OR from the field to look back at your stuff like Lot's wife did BUT intead just let His deliverance from this world take place in your life as He did with Noah and Lot. He always takes His people out first and then comes the judgement.

Matt 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,
18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.
19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The reason Luke's version talks about in that day and in that night is because the tribulation was going to continued long past sunset. On the day they saw it they were to run for the hills, the tribulation was going to overtake some people at night and it would last many days.

Luke's account (not version) was more specific to the revealing of the Son of man. I'm sorry but this explanation is flawed in the fact that you neglect that one is taken and one is left.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

And as I said before judgement is mentioned but it specifically is speaking about the revelation of the Son of man ... the time when the Lord shall come back for those who are looking for Him and take them OUT before the judgement.

It was a Christian astronomer, Copernicus who told us the earth goes round the sun. In doing so, he overturned a millennium and a half of literal interpretation that said the sun went round the earth. But showing a traditional interpretation is wrong is not the same as trying to discredit God and his word. Many of the geologists who showed us the earth was older than bishop Ussher said were Christians too. Darwin was not trying to discredit God when he wrote Origin of species, though some of his atheist friends like Huxley tired to use the science that way.

Science simply tells us more about this wonderful universe we know by faith that God created. If it turns out that some of our traditional interpretations were wrong so what? Our faith in God does not depend on our understanding everything in his word perfectly. We do what Christians did when Copernicus told them their geocentric interpretation was wrong. If the science is sound back to God's word and see how you are misreading it

But we must not be so naive or ignorant of the fact that there ARE most definitely THOSE who do TRY to discredit God and His Word.

I'm all for getting rid of religious traditions which make the power of God of none effect BUT one must be VERY careful that they don't allow MERE science to interpret the Word of God for us because the devil may just make it so you believe a lie. Take the Word of God and make science line up with it NOT the other way around.

 

[Inan3]

Which denomination or sect has "spiritual understanding"? How do you tell?

What does it say about your "spiritual understanding" that you think God's Word refers to information in a book?

There is no specific denomination or sect. Many denominations have born again Christians. Jesus said you MUST be born again of the spirit to see the Kingdom of God.

I don't think God's Word refers to information in a book. I think God's Word was written down in a book form for the benefit of man.

 

[Inan3]

And fools cannot see the Emperor's New Clothes.

Don't creationists get tired of this line?

I don't know about creationists but as a Christian I do not because it is the Word of God.

This truth was given to ALL men so that we COULD interpret God's Word. It is FOR all men to know what God is saying to them. I had to make that choice why is it seemingly insulting to you and others that you have to do the same. I'm not telling you anything that I didn't do. The old cliche "Once I was blind but now I see". It's offered to "whosoever will" no one is twisting anyones arm here just telling you the same truth that was told to me. It's your choice to accept it or not. I just know when I did I could then see the truth. ...or as you suggested the "emperor's new clothes."

 

[BrainHertz]

I have followed the evidence to its logical conclusion, that we cannot know from human observation the origin of living things with any real certainty. I came to this conclusion after taking biology, anthropology and geology at a college level, and reading the popular literature in favor of evolution.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L-HiHNhKuJM

Punctuated equilibrium is, from a logician's perspective, an ad hoc explanation. I'm not going to condemn you for believing otherwise.

Am I the only person who thought Dr. Sarfati here must surely be one of those animatronic device thingies like you might find in Ken Ham's creationist museum? Something about the glazed expression and monotonic delivery...

I searched in vain for anagrams of "Johnathan Sarfati", hoping to find something like "I'm a Creationist Android" jump out at me, but the best I could come up with was "A Fan Has Janitors".

 

[BrainHertz]

Well then those who tortured them were heretics too because it wasn't God who told them to do that.

What definition of "heretic" are you using here?

 

[SpyridonOCA]

All Christians should agree that we are created in the image of God, have fallen, and are in need of Christ for redemption. The only difference would be over how we view God's method of Creation and the time involved.

 

[Assyrian]

Well I'm not going to get into it too much with you here but He specifically is speaking of the coming of the Son of man... the revealing of the Son of God,

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

(both names being the Lord's) and His coming back to TAKE His people OUT BEFORE the judgement which is coming on the earth.

Actually there is no mention of a rapture in the passage or that the people taken are taken to be with the Lord. I realise some Christians read the passage that way, but it is more fitting the passage into their eschatology than what the passage actually says.

Hence one is taken the other is left. And the wording in that day and in that night is regarding the revealing of Jesus or the coming of the Son of man which happens at one time. The mention of Noah and Sodom is to point to the "condition" of man just before the judgement, liking it to the condition of men's hearts when He is revealed in the clouds, coming to take His people out before the judgement comes.

I would read the mention of the Son of Man and his day (or days) as a reference to the Day of the Lord, which was a warning of judgment. Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, and as destruction from the Almighty it comes. Amos 5:18 Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! Why would you have the day of the LORD? It is darkness, and not light,

It was not just that people were eating and drinking in the time of Noah and Sodom, they were eating and drinking before an impending judgment.What difference does it make if Jesus is going to rapture you whether you go into your house or not? I presume the rapture wouldn't have a problem with roofs Would people being raptured even know it was coming? And if they did, if they saw their friends levitating up into the sky, what would possibly make them want to go into their house to grab their belongings? People seeing impending judgment in the shape of a advancing soldiers might be tempted to run inside and pick some stuff up, and someone working in the fields might be tempted to go back and grab a cloak. Why would Jesus give the warning about Lot's wife if he was simply telling his disciples they were going to be raptured?

The reference that you quoated above was a warning that WHEN the Son of man is revealed don't try to go back to your house and get your goods OR from the field to look back at your stuff like Lot's wife did BUT intead just let His deliverance from this world take place in your life as He did with Noah and Lot. He always takes His people out first and then comes the judgement.

He took Lot and family out by telling them to run for the hills. If it was simply being raptured that is going to work whether we get our coat or not. It is only if our escape depends on our fleeing fast enough that the Lot's wife warning makes any sense.

Luke's account (not version) was more specific to the revealing of the Son of man. I'm sorry but this explanation is flawed in the fact that you neglect that one is taken and one is left.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

That could easily describe the result of a rampaging foreign army killing or capturing the population. Eagles gathering around a corpse in verse 37 seem a grizzly warning of what the Roman legions would do to Jerusalem and Judea.

And as I said before judgement is mentioned but it specifically is speaking about the revelation of the Son of man ... the time when the Lord shall come back for those who are looking for Him and take them OUT before the judgement.

Then why the warning about Lot's wife who did not get out fast enough? Why use the same language he used in Matthew to to warn people to run for the hills?

But we must not be so naive or ignorant of the fact that there ARE most definitely THOSE who do TRY to discredit God and His Word.

I'm all for getting rid of religious traditions which make the power of God of none effect BUT one must be VERY careful that they don't allow MERE science to interpret the Word of God for us because the devil may just make it so you believe a lie. Take the Word of God and make science line up with it NOT the other way around.

Then the church should still be teaching geocentrism. Their literal interpretation of scripture told them the sun went round the earth. When science came along and said that was wrong, your idea of making science line up with the word of God would have meant rejecting heliocentrism and sticking with their old interpretation. Instead they allowed the science to tell them their old interpretation was wrong. Should they not have done that?

Of course science does not tell us how to interpret the bible, but if it tells us one of our traditional interpretations is wrong, that should send us back to scripture to look again and and try to see what it is actually saying.

 

[RealityCheck]

I'm all for getting rid of religious traditions which make the power of God of none effect BUT one must be VERY careful that they don't allow MERE science to interpret the Word of God for us because the devil may just make it so you believe a lie. Take the Word of God and make science line up with it NOT the other way around.

Sorry, but it was recognized centuries ago that this doesn't work. As you've clearly recognized, the Bible is wide open to interpretation - pretty much anyone can take any verse or set of verses and fashion a specific interpretation out of it. Why else would there be so many denominations of Christianity? If the Bible were perfectly crystal clear, there would be no need for interpretation - it would be absolutely obvious in all aspects. But that's not the case. Thus, making science line up with the Bible is not feasible, because then the scientist would make his findings and theories line up with his particular interpretation of the Bible. Science then becomes a religious tool, nothing more.

In real practice, of course, Christians have always had to line up their interpretation of the Bible with cold, hard reality. It is no problem at all to read the verses in Joshua and see that it clearly must be interpreted as saying the sun revolves around a stationary earth. How else is it possible for the sun to have been "stopped in the sky"? "Oh, well," says the fundamentalist put in a tight spot, "clearly that was not meant literally, it should be interpreted as meaning the earth stopped rotating."

What about the passages where the Bible clearly describes the earth as being a circle, a flat geometric object? "Oh, well," says the fundamentalist again, "you have to understand that in Hebrew a 'circle' really meant 'round object' and, well, the earth is a round sphere, so..." (Which, incidentally, is not correct - Hebrew has a specific word for 'ball' or 'sphere', but the word used to describe the earth is clearly not 'ball' but 'circle'.) Again, you have to interpret the Bible to line up with science.

And what about that passage in Revelations, about the stars falling to the earth? That isn't physically possible, given that a) the earth would fall into a star, being that b) stars are thousands of times large and more massive than the earth, not tiny pinpoints of light in a sky that rolls up like a rug which is also not physically possible. "Oh, well," says the fundamentalist again, "you have to understand that that part isn't a literal picture of what will happen but is symbolic..." (But wait, how do you decide what parts are literal and which parts aren't? Oh wait, right, whatever doesn't agree with physical reality is what has to be interpreted away...)


See? Those who put their absolute faith in the Bible have always and will always have to make their interpretations of the Bible line up with science, not the other way around. Those who do not, and take the Bible absolutely literally, can at least be admired for not waffling on this matter (see: geocentrists) but they will never be taken seriously for believing in a reality defined by bronze-age writers over reality defined by actual observation.

The cold, hard fact is, evolution occurs. It has been observed to occur, no matter how much fundamentalists try to explain it away. Bacteria strains producing new drug-resistant species? "Oh that's not evolution, that's just adaptation..." (Except that adapation IS a part of evolution!) Lizard populations adapting to a new environment and developing new traits as a result? "Well sure, micro-evolution occurs but not macro-evolution..." (Except that there is no such distinction in science - that's entirely defined by fundamentalists hoping to cling to the idea that the Genesis account is still fundamentally correct.)

Evolution isn't the only thing that disagrees with the Bible. Geology disagrees with the Bible. Archaeology disagrees with the Bible. The written histories of other civilizations disagree with the Bible.

You, Inan, cannot absolve yourself of interpreting parts of the Bible to fit with physical reality. You do it even if you don't acknowledge it consciously.

 

[Inan3]

You, Inan, cannot absolve yourself of interpreting parts of the Bible to fit with physical reality. You do it even if you don't acknowledge it consciously.

I do acknowledge that I interpret the Bible but I also, KNOW how to do that. I interpret scripture with scripture. God knew exactly what He was doing with the scriptures. He purposefully made it so that those who choose not to believe would not understand or see the truth. The scriptures are very clear and elaborate but you must be born again to see them. That's the missing link for you evolutionists. That's the one you should be looking for. As for the line that you can't see the truth... we only tell you that to help you. From there it is up to you to seek. If you do you will find.

 

[Gracchus]

All Christians should agree that we are created in the image of God, have fallen, and are in need of Christ for redemption. The only difference would be over how we view God's method of Creation and the time involved.

Why isn't it enough to just try to follow the teachings of Jesus? Why must we believe in a literal, inerrant book written over hundreds of years to support various agendas? Why must we believe what is printed on a page instead of what is written in stone, and sea, and stars?

I do acknowledge that I interpret the Bible but I also, KNOW how to do that. I interpret scripture with scripture.

So who exactly went to the garden on the morning of the resurrection, and what did they see? Compare the accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and interpret each in light of the others. Display for us your expertise.

You should be aware, that your interpretation of scripture would probably be contested vehemently by most Christians on at least some points. Indeed, there may not be two Christians in the whole world who would agree on every point of interpretation.

God knew exactly what He was doing with the scriptures. He purposefully made it so that those who choose not to believe would not understand or see the truth.

So he was preaching to the choir! That seems to me to be a futile exercise for an omniscient God. What sort of god would deliberately deceive about the truth rather than demonstrate it? Would that not be the prince of lies? SATAN!

The scriptures are very clear and elaborate but you must be born again to see them.

Yeah! And you must have magic spectacles to read the golden tablets. You say you don't have any. Well, I'm sorry, but God took them back. You'll just have to believe me!

That's the missing link for you evolutionists. That's the one you should be looking for.

The links we have found aren't missing any more. (e.g. archaeopteryx, tiktaalik*) Scientists don't see any need to investigate whether Goldilocks' hair ribbon was blue or red or some other color.

(* http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/meetTik.html )

As for the line that you can't see the truth... we only tell you that to help you. From there it is up to you to seek. If you do you will find.

You find what you seek. Science seeks to find what is really there.

Ponder this:

"14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." --- Matthew 23 KJV

Creationists are afraid to lose what the Lord has given them and so they have buried their minds under rocks. They are afraid because, despite all their protestations, they have no faith in God.

 

[Inan3]

Why isn't it enough to just try to follow the teachings of Jesus? Why must we believe in a literal, inerrant book written over hundreds of years to support various agendas? Why must we believe what is printed on a page instead of what is written in stone, and sea, and stars?

It is enough that you follow the teachings of Jesus. First and foremost He taught that you must be born again to see the Kingdom of Heaven. Just do that and forget about all the other stuff. When you are born again the Lord will show you. He doesn't make it difficult. He said come unto me and I will give your rest. First you have to come to Him and then let Him teach you. Receive Him and you are on your way.

So who exactly went to the garden on the morning of the resurrection, and what did they see? Compare the accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and interpret each in light of the others. Display for us your expertise

.

First the "accounts" in the Gospels are just that accounts. They are not every detail of the happenings. They are still Holy Ghost inspired but each account adds a different light on each subject. As you study it out with an open mind you will see that there were severa women who went to the sepulcre. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James obviously being the main two. It appears that there were more than one or two times that they went. They came to the tomb and saw more than one angel and possibly even different angels eac time. They all had the same message to go and tell the disciples that He was risen and that He wanted them to go to Galiliee where they would see Him. The women went and told them more than once. The disciples did not believe them though. Peter and John did go to the tomb but did not see Jesus. It does not indicate that the disciples saw any angels either. It's obvious that Mary Magdalene went back to the tomb with the disciples and after they left she hung around and that is when she saw Jesus. It is also clear that even though she had seen an angel who told her that He was risen that she did not believe it because of what she first told the disciples and because of what she asked Jesus at the tomb before she knew it was Jesus. She told the disciples that they had taken away His body and then she inquired of Jesus, when she thought He was the gardener, where they had taken Him. It wasn't until she saw Jesus that she knew He had risen. She then went back to the disciples and told them she saw Him and they still did not believe her. Others came to them and told them, also, but they believed not until He appeared to them. A couple of details in two of the accounts indicate that there were different time frames for the women coming and going back and forth to the disciples and the tomb is when Mary Magdalene, who the records indicate saw Jesus first, saw the Lord He told her not to touch Him because He had not yet gone to the Father but later He allowed the women to hold His feet when they met Him and worship Him and even later He told the disciples to handle Him.

You should be aware, that your interpretation of scripture would probably be contested vehemently by most Christians on at least some points. Indeed, there may not be two Christians in the whole world who would agree on every point of interpretation.

The scriptures are of no private interpretation. All scripture must be interpreted with scripture, not someone's personal doctrine or belief system. That is how there are so many denominations and cults. Someone somewhere got selfish and had to have it there way twisting the scripture to come in line with their way of thinking. It really is a simple gospel and not very hard to understand. It is men's pride that gets in the way and gets it wrong. Nothing more nothing less.

So he was preaching to the choir! That seems to me to be a futile exercise for an omniscient God. What sort of god would deliberately deceive about the truth rather than demonstrate it? Would that not be the prince of lies? SATAN!

He does not deceive, deliberately or otherwise. He requires people seek Him with and honest heart. It's that simple and then they will see the truth and understand the wisdom of the ages. It's not hard difficult. He's not playing around with wise guys though. If a person wants God He will be there for them all the way but if not He's not obligated to give them anything nor will He.

The links we have found aren't missing any more. (e.g. archaeopteryx, tiktaalik*) Scientists don't see any need to investigate whether Goldilocks' hair ribbon was blue or red or some other color.

(* http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/meetTik.html )

As you say, the links "you have found aren't missing anymore". Well, that's obvious but archaeopteryx, tiktaalik are not links of man to animal
or man coming from slime or whatever. They do not prove that God did not create man as man and nothing less or more. These so called links only show another animal. They prove nothing and you know it.

You find what you seek. Science seeks to find what is really there.

No comment.

Ponder this:

"14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." --- Matthew 23 KJV

Creationists are afraid to lose what the Lord has given them and so they have buried their minds under rocks. They are afraid because, despite all their protestations, they have no faith in God.

That's a classic example of twisting the scriptures to say what you want them to say. The message is that those that have (those that have applied themselves in the things that the master has given them and increased in it vs. those that do nothing with what God has given them) Those that have done nothing with what God has given them they will lose it and it shall be given to those who have done something with it. For they that have shall receive more and they that have not shall even what they have be taken from them. I have great faith in my God and all that He has done and I'm not afraid of anything.

 

[Gracchus]

First the "accounts" in the Gospels are just that accounts. They are not every detail of the happenings.

So they leave out some "details" and perhaps add others?

They are still Holy Ghost inspired but each account adds a different light on each subject.

And what, exactly, does each light add?

As you study it out with an open mind you will see that there were severa women who went to the sepulcre.

You don't want to keep your mind so open that all your brains dribble out of your ears.

Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James obviously being the main two. It appears that there were more than one or two times that they went. They came to the tomb and saw more than one angel and possibly even different angels eac time.

So then your interpretation is arrived at by adding the accounts together.

The scriptures are of no private interpretation. All scripture must be interpreted with scripture, not someone's personal doctrine or belief system.

Why?

That is how there are so many denominations and cults. Someone somewhere got selfish and had to have it there way twisting the scripture to come in line with their way of thinking. It really is a simple gospel and not very hard to understand. It is men's pride that gets in the way and gets it wrong. Nothing more nothing less.

Could you be wrong about that?

He does not deceive, deliberately or otherwise. He requires people seek Him with and honest heart.

Why does he require that? Does he need the adulation? Why not just ... as a matter of principle ... just give everyone a convincing miracle?

It's that simple and then they will see the truth and understand the wisdom of the ages. It's not hard difficult. He's not playing around with wise guys though.

He does seem to prefer fools, at least to hear the fools tell it.

If a person wants God He will be there for them all the way but if not He's not obligated to give them anything nor will He.

"Quit telling God what to do." --- Niels Bohr

As you say, the links "you have found aren't missing anymore". Well, that's obvious but archaeopteryx, tiktaalik are not links of man to animal or man coming from slime or whatever

Man is not Archaebacteria, nor Eubacteria. Man is not fungus or plant. Man is an animal.

They do not prove that God did not create man as man and nothing less or more. These so called links only show another animal. They prove nothing and you know it.

" 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?" --- Ecclesiates 3 KJV

Matthew 23:14-29

That's a classic example of twisting the scriptures to say what you want them to say. The message is that those that have (those that have applied themselves in the things that the master has given them and increased in it vs. those that do nothing with what God has given them) Those that have done nothing with what God has given them they will lose it and it shall be given to those who have done something with it. For they that have shall receive more and they that have not shall even what they have be taken from them.

My point exactly. God gave you a mind. What have you done with your mind? Have you buried it in a single old book?

I have great faith in my God and all that He has done and I'm not afraid of anything.

Nor should you be. I think you will actually enjoy being a flatworm.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Those outside of the Church may wonder why traditional Christians prefer Scripture over secular science when the two are in conflict. I recommend reading the words of the church fathers, the saints and theologians of the early Church:
http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CHes

Since humans are tainted by sin, have limited knowledge, and were not witnesses to the beginning of Creation, Christians traditionally would prefer Scripture over the ideas of secular science. That doesn't make science wrong in and of itself, but that Scripture should be central to our thinking.

Those Christians that are outside of the fundamentalist movement wonder why the fundamentalist have replaced Jesus, who should be the center of their theology, with a piece of dead wood.

 

[Inan3]

So they leave out some "details" and perhaps add others?

As the Holy Spirit guided them, yes.

And what, exactly, does each light add?

What light does is dispel darkness. I brings revelation.

You don't want to keep your mind so open that all your brains dribble out of your ears.

Which could never happen so I won't comment

So then your interpretation is arrived at by adding the accounts together.

Scripture is interpreted with scripture.

Why?

That's obvious. There would be so many different interpretations that there would be no more truth. It would be disected to oblivion.

Could you be wrong about that?

I could be wrong in anything that is why it is left up to the scripture to conclude and that will endure forever.

Why does he require that? Does he need the adulation? Why not just ... as a matter of principle ... just give everyone a convincing miracle?

God does not NEED adulation because He is greater than that. Whether one likes it or not God is Supreme and His Word is the end of the matter. He changes not. It is we who must change if we want what He offers. The choice is always ours and not His. Why is that so difficult we accept those terms in this life all the time with no insult to the manufacturer. God is Creator and we are His possession. The earth is the Lord's and they that dwell therein. That's just how it is. The creature is subject to the Creator in all things.

As to giving everyone a convincing miracle...people believe what they want to believe. They make the choice to believe or NOT. A miracle would not convince anyone. Signs and wonders have happened all down the ages but that hasn't convinced everyone. Man can always explain it away IF he wants to. You have to believe. That is the way into the Spirit. No one is trying to make it difficult just trying to tell how it is. To come to God you MUST believe. That's "HOW" it is done.

He does seem to prefer fools, at least to hear the fools tell it.

This is how the scripture describes a fool.

Psa 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psa 92:5 O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep. Psa 92:6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

"Quit telling God what to do." --- Niels Bohr

A disputed quote according to Wikiquote.
Stop telling God what to do with his dice.

• A response to Einstein's assertion that "God doesn't play dice"; a similar statement is attributed to Enrico Fermi
• Variant: Einstein, don't tell God what to do.

BUT what I said was true.

Pro 1:20 Listen! Wisdom is calling out in the streets and marketplaces,
Pro 1:21 calling loudly at the city gates and wherever people come together:
Pro 1:22 "Foolish people! How long do you want to be foolish? How long will you enjoy making fun of knowledge? Will you never learn?
Pro 1:23 Listen when I reprimand you; I will give you good advice and share my knowledge with you.
Pro 1:24 I have been calling you, inviting you to come, but you would not listen. You paid no attention to me.
Pro 1:25 You have ignored all my advice and have not been willing to let me correct you.
Pro 1:26 So when you get into trouble, I will laugh at you. I will make fun of you when terror strikes---
Pro 1:27 when it comes on you like a storm, bringing fierce winds of trouble, and you are in pain and misery.
Pro 1:28 Then you will call for wisdom, but I will not answer. You may look for me everywhere, but you will not find me.
Pro 1:29 You have never had any use for knowledge and have always refused to obey the LORD.
Pro 1:30 You have never wanted my advice or paid any attention when I corrected you.
Pro 1:31 So then, you will get what you deserve, and your own actions will make you sick.
Pro 1:32 Inexperienced people die because they reject wisdom. Stupid people are destroyed by their own lack of concern.
Pro 1:33 But whoever listens to me will have security. He will be safe, with no reason to be afraid."

" 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?" --- Ecclesiates 3 KJV

Did you notice man's spirit goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?

Also, Ecclesiastes is a book to show the futility of man without God. I suppose it is how atheists look at a man's life and I certainly can understand why because without God it is all vanity.

BUT now I will give you the summation of the the writer of Ecclesiastes

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

My point exactly. God gave you a mind. What have you done with your mind? Have you buried it in a single old book?

Now I will quote Niel Bohr.

You are not thinking. You are merely being logical.
Niels Bohr

I use the mind that God has given me and I allow myself to think logically and beyon logic. I think, I reason, I conclude and as Solomon, the wisest man, concluded, I "fear God, keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of man. And yes, in light of all other books and the emptiness within them I have chosen to bury my self in that ONE SINGLE BOOK which holds the wisdom of the ages and the key to eternal life and joy. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for all mankind.

 

[flatworm]

I could be wrong in anything that is why it is left up to the scripture to conclude and that will endure forever.

But if you could be wrong in your interpretation of scripture, then you're right back at square one. It advances you naught to claim to interpret scripture with scripture, since that just adds another layer of abstraction with exactly the same problem, leaving you with (at best) an infinite regression.

God does not NEED adulation because He is greater than that. Whether one likes it or not God is Supreme and His Word is the end of the matter. He changes not. It is we who must change if we want what He offers. The choice is always ours and not His. Why is that so difficult we accept those terms in this life all the time with no insult to the manufacturer. God is Creator and we are His possession. The earth is the Lord's and they that dwell therein. That's just how it is. The creature is subject to the Creator in all things.

If the Bible is true, which I am quite sure it is not.

As to giving everyone a convincing miracle...people believe what they want to believe. They make the choice to believe or NOT. A miracle would not convince anyone.

Utter nonsense. The gospels make a big deal of people seeing miracles and becoming instant followers. Please don't insult our intelligence.

Signs and wonders have happened all down the ages but that hasn't convinced everyone.

Strangely, the same claim is made about myriad other supernatural beleif systems that directly contradict your own. Even more strangely, they seem to vanish when a skeptic arrives.

Man can always explain it away IF he wants to. You have to believe. That is the way into the Spirit.

No, you don't just have to believe. It is the way of the gullible.

No one is trying to make it difficult just trying to tell how it is. To come to God you MUST believe. That's "HOW" it is done.

To make it work, you must believe. That's why it's called make believe.

I propose a simply mental test for you to apply to your arguments before you proffer them: If the same argument can be made in favour of a belief system that contradicts your own, don't use it. If you're willing to accept that you must first believe in God before you can see evidence for Him, why not the same for Thor? If you're willing to believe the Bible is divinely inspired, why not the Book of Mormon or the Koran? If you're willing to accept the argument for your own beliefs but not for others, it indicates that obviously the argument cannot be sound, for if it were all these contradictory things would have to be true at once, a logical impossibility.

This is how the scripture describes a fool.

Psa 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Bill Gates is an atheist and one of the greatest philanthropic donors in history. The same goes for Warren Buffet. None that doeth good?

Clearly the "inspired word of God" here directly contradicts obvious realities.

Pro 1:20 Listen! Wisdom is calling out in the streets and marketplaces,
Pro 1:21 calling loudly at the city gates and wherever people come together:
Pro 1:22 "Foolish people! How long do you want to be foolish? How long will you enjoy making fun of knowledge? Will you never learn?
Pro 1:23 Listen when I reprimand you; I will give you good advice and share my knowledge with you.
Pro 1:24 I have been calling you, inviting you to come, but you would not listen. You paid no attention to me.
Pro 1:25 You have ignored all my advice and have not been willing to let me correct you.
Pro 1:26 So when you get into trouble, I will laugh at you. I will make fun of you when terror strikes---
Pro 1:27 when it comes on you like a storm, bringing fierce winds of trouble, and you are in pain and misery.
Pro 1:28 Then you will call for wisdom, but I will not answer. You may look for me everywhere, but you will not find me.
Pro 1:29 You have never had any use for knowledge and have always refused to obey the LORD.
Pro 1:30 You have never wanted my advice or paid any attention when I corrected you.
Pro 1:31 So then, you will get what you deserve, and your own actions will make you sick.
Pro 1:32 Inexperienced people die because they reject wisdom. Stupid people are destroyed by their own lack of concern.
Pro 1:33 But whoever listens to me will have security. He will be safe, with no reason to be afraid."

I think a quote from Celsus is appropriate here:

the following are the rules laid down by them. Let no one come to us who has been instructed, or who is wise or prudent (for such qualifications are deemed evil by us); but if there be any ignorant, or unintelligent, or uninstructed, or foolish persons, let them come with confidence. By which words, acknowledging that such individuals are worthy of their God, they manifestly show that they desire and are able to gain over only the silly, and the mean, and the stupid, with women and children."...

And

We see, indeed, in private houses workers in wool and leather, and fullers, and persons of the most uninstructed and rustic character, not venturing to utter a word in the presence of their elders and wiser masters; but when they get hold of the children privately, and certain women as ignorant as themselves, they pour forth wonderful statements, to the effect that they ought not to give heed to their father and to their teachers, but should obey them; that the former are foolish and stupid, and neither know nor can perform anything that is really good, being preoccupied with empty trifles; that they alone know how men ought to live, and that, if the children obey them, they will both be happy themselves, and will make their home happy also. And while thus speaking, if they see one of the instructors of youth approaching, or one of the more intelligent class, or even the father himself, the more timid among them become afraid, while the more forward incite the children to throw off the yoke, whispering that in the presence of father and teachers they neither will nor can explain to them any good thing, seeing they turn away with aversion from the silliness and stupidity of such persons as being altogether corrupt, and far advanced in wickedness, and such as would inflict punishment upon them; but that if they wish (to avail themselves of their aid,) they must leave their father and their instructors, and go with the women and their playfellows to the women's apartments, or to the leather shop, or to the fuller's shop, that they may attain to perfection;--and by words like these they gain them over."

Also, Ecclesiastes is a book to show the futility of man without God. I suppose it is how atheists look at a man's life and I certainly can understand why because without God it is all vanity.

If that is the purpose of Ecclesiastes, then it is a pathetic failure when stacked up against the daily experience of millions who live full, happy, moral lives without religion, not to mention all those great men throughout history who have openly rejected belief in gods.

As an atheist for all my adult life I can tell you that since there is no God, the correct statement is "without God everything is pretty much the way it is today."

You are not thinking. You are merely being logical.
Niels Bohr

Ethan Allen:

Those who invalidate reason, ought seriously to consider, "whether they argue against reason, with or without reason; if with reason, then they establish the principle, that they are laboring to dethrone;" but if they argue without reason, (which, in order to be consistent with themselves, they must do,) they are out of the reach of rational conviction, nor do they deserve a rational argument.

I use the mind that God has given me and I allow myself to think logically and beyon logic.

When you think "beyond logic" you are thinking illogically. See above.

I think, I reason, I conclude and as Solomon, the wisest man, concluded, I "fear God, keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of man. And yes, in light of all other books and the emptiness within them

You have read every other book?

I have chosen to bury my self in that ONE SINGLE BOOK which holds the wisdom of the ages and the key to eternal life and joy.

How do you know that it does?

I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for all mankind.

I am not ashamed of the gospel either, because it's just another ancient myth among others.

 

[AV1611VET]

The gospels make a big deal of people seeing miracles and becoming instant followers. Please don't insult our intelligence.

I like this point --- miracles are an insult to intelligence. Almost worth changing my signature.

 

[flatworm]

I like this point --- miracles are an insult to intelligence. Almost worth changing my signature.

No, the idea that miracles are useless for convincing people of the truth of religious claims is an insult to anyone's intelligence.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, the idea that miracles are useless for convincing people of the truth of religious claims is an insult to anyone's intelligence.

I would call a religion without miracles "atheism."

 

[Inan3]

No, the idea that miracles are useless for convincing people of the truth of religious claims is an insult to anyone's intelligence.

You do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God. It would be good if you read it all but at least take particular note to those things noted in bold.

Luk 16:19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham'sbosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, thatwould comefrom thence.
Luk 16:27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, NEITHER WILL THEY BE PERSUADED, THOUGH ONE RISE FROM THE DEAD.


Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Joh 9:4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Joh 9:5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Joh 9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Joh 9:7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
Joh 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
Joh 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Joh 9:10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
Joh 9:11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
Joh 9:12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
Joh 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
Joh 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Joh 9:15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
Joh 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
Joh 9:17 They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
Joh 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
Joh 9:19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was bornblind? how then doth he now see?
Joh 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
Joh 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
Joh 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
Joh 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
Joh 9:24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
Joh 9:25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
Joh 9:26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
Joh 9:27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
Joh 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
Joh 9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
Joh 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Joh 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
Joh 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
Joh 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.


Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Joh 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
Joh 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
Joh 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Joh 11:52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Joh 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.


The religious leaders are always the worst. As a matter of fact it was never the sinner that Jesus rebuked but always the religious leaders. Those who thought themselves righteous by their own good works. Those who thought they could do it their way. Religion, even the religion of atheism, is anything that exalts itself above God. God is looking for people to come to Him. To lay down THEIR life and way and to humble themselves beneath Him. In doing that they will save their life and gain it. Going opposite of that is death no matter how "moral" one may think himself or herself. It is Jesus' righteousness that we stand in and none others. When we come to God we MUST come through Jesus. Not the Koran, not Budha, Bahullah, Thor or anyone else. There is none other name under heaven whereby men may be saved but by the Name of Jesus.


Those that came to Jesus after seeing the miracles were those who would have believed even if they didn't see the miracles. Multitudes of others saw the miracles and still rejected Him, as the scriptures above, and many more, demonstrate.