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"Most people go to purgatory, the next greatest number go to hell, and a few..."

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RedTulipMom

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The quote is from Medjugorje, not Fatima.
right...the quote in the OP is from Medj and says "Today, most people to Purgatory, the next greatest number go to Hell, and only a few go directly to Heaven."

she was questioning because she thought Mary said "most soulds go to hell" in Fatima...

that would have been a contradiction...

but its cleared up above now..

she said "many souls go to hell" not "most souls go to hell"
 
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thereselittleflower

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One of the most interesting revelations that has come out of Medjugorje is the following:

"Today, most people to Purgatory, the next greatest number go to Hell, and only a few go directly to Heaven."

Thoughts?

(Yes, I know that Medjugorje is pending approval.)

Why would anyone think it is a revelation? :scratch:

Medjugorje is false, it is not authentic.

Seers have been caught in lies many times, even admitted to them under oath.


Why would anyone think that anything coming out of Medjgorje as "messages" are actually revelations when they are given by those who have proven themselves to be liars? :scratch:


And this is just the beginning of the problems with Medjguorje that prove it is false, just like Naju Japan was proven false by the same things.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Did not Our Lady of Fatima say that most people go to Hell?

Would Our Lady contradict herself?

How does that Catholic prayer go?

Save us from the fires of hell,
Lead all souls to heaven,
Especially those who are in most need of thy mercy.


I would simply say that there is no need to compare what comes out of Medjugorje with any authentic apparition as the seers have proven themselves to be liars under oath.

So why pay any heed to what they say? :scratch:
 
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stephenc

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GO, BABY TURTLES GO!

baby-turtles-hatching3.jpg
 
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thereselittleflower

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Because the messages seem so wise and true.

Do wise and true message come from the disobedient and liars?


Here are what the scriptures say about liars in the NT:
1Ti 1:10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Tts 1:12One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Rev 2:2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and the disobedient:
2Ti 3:1¶This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Note that the alledged apparitions at Medjugorje started with disobedience to parents - some teenagers were sneaking out to smoke cigarettes behind their parents' backs. . . . .

The seers continue to lie about this, claiming one was looking for a lost sheep, even though this was admitted, under oath, to be a lie and after the same lie was repeated under oath!
 
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thereselittleflower

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I agree! AMEN!!! Change the subject and get back to the thread topic. People and their soap boxes, really. UGH!

The topic of the thread is:
One of the most interesting revelations that has come out of Medjugorje is the following:

"Today, most people to Purgatory, the next greatest number go to Hell, and only a few go directly to Heaven."

Thoughts?

(Yes, I know that Medjugorje is pending approval.)


That is exactly what is being talked about here. :) Giving our thoughts about what comes out of Medjugorje . . . as asked by the OP. :)


No one should be claiming this, or any other, message coming out of Medjugorje is from Mary . . .

That it is not Mary has been proven by the evidene of continual lying aand disobedience that has been ongoing from the first.
 
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SpiritualAntiseptic

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No, I am not a Mormon. Please do not discuss my religion changes in this thread or any other thread for that matter. If you wish to discuss my religion changes, PM me.

If you don't want people discussing your faith, then you really ought not announce the change in your profile, then make a dozen posts where you confidently and boldly announce how you agree with the tenets of whatever is your new temporary faith.

If you don't want people discussing your faith then don't discuss it. Don't post how you think Joseph Smith was a prophet one day and the next day post how you believe in the Trinity- and then get all upset that people are asking you about what you believe.

Most people don't radically change their faith every two weeks, in fact, I don't know of anyone else that does that. So please don't act surprised when people wonder about your faith. If you post about your faith, then you have no right to complain people asking about it. Any details I give about myself are up for scrutiny.
 
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thereselittleflower

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[/color]

Probably not. I'll stop following what goes in Medjugorje if/when there is a ruling from the Magisterium.

The Magesterium does not rule on private revelations. Bishops in their office of authority to bind and loose do.


Where does the Church tell us we can follow an unapproved apparition until She says not to?

The Bishops have already determined that lying and disobedience continue to occur as this has since the beginning.

If wise and true messages probably don't flow from the disobedient and liars, then why would anyone follow Medjugorje since that is exactly what is happening there?
 
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thereselittleflower

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My understanding was that we are free to believe in any unapproved apparition unless it is specifically denounced. Maybe I'm wrong.

That is a common understanding, but the Church doesn't teach us this.


In fact, Her wisdom is spoken to us through the Saints, especially mystics such as St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avilla who warn us to never seek after supernatural phenomena, otherwise we open ourslves to deception from the enemy.

The only safe private revelations to pay any heed to are those which the Church as definitely approved. :)

We have plenty of those, so why take chances of being deceived by following apparitions and other private revelations that have not been approved, and, as in the case of Medjugorje, have received negative judgements stating that there is nothing to affirm there is anything supernatural going on at all?
 
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thereselittleflower

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Where are the messages coming from? From God? From Satan? From the "seers" themselves? Whoever authors them is very savvy because the messages make so much spiritual sense.

They are not coming from God for the overwhelming disobedience is the conclusive proof they are not from God. Obedience is the only fruit satan cannot conterfeit and Medjugorje is rife with it.

But whether it is the satan deceiving the seers, or the seers and disobedient priests deceiving the world, we may never know for sure, as there is evidence for both.

The news from the Vatican is that they are getting ready to condemn Medjugorje.
 
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In fact, Her wisdom is spoken to us through the Saints, especially mystics such as St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avilla who warn us to never seek after supernatural phenomena, otherwise we open ourslves to deception from the enemy.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Apostle Paul encourage us to seek spiritual gifts?

Point taken about Medjugorje. I will stop following these apparitions.
 
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I would simply say that there is no need to compare what comes out of Medjugorje with any authentic apparition as the seers have proven themselves to be liars under oath.

So why pay any heed to what they say? :scratch:

Whoa, seriously? You don't think Medjugorje is for real? I had no idea. Thanks for clearing that up - I was really confused as to what you thought about the topic.
 
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Fantine

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In fact, Her wisdom is spoken to us through the Saints, especially mystics such as St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avilla who warn us to never seek after supernatural phenomena, otherwise we open ourslves to deception from the enemy.

The only safe private revelations to pay any heed to are those which the Church as definitely approved. :)

We have plenty of those, so why take chances of being deceived by following apparitions and other private revelations that have not been approved.

Our God is an awesome God, that's for sure.....

Not only are our amazing and unique bodies composed primarily of just three elements--carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen--but even our personalities are so completely different.

There are those of us like me, who, because I saw my MIL work through all her issues and learn to forgive in the last weeks of her life, know that our God is a God of second chances....

And there are those of us like you, who won't trust your own senses or experiences unless they have been approved by the Pope.....

And I'm not saying that either of us is wrong (although I feel sure you'd tell me I'm wrong.)

If Our Lady of Fatima said one thing and my spiritual experiences led me to a different conclusion, I would trust my spiritual experiences. You'd do just the opposite.

And the fact that we can be so different, instead of little clones of one another, glorifies God.

I think God is happy when people don't wait for 20 years to get an OK from Rome to trust themselves. But that's me.
 
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Ave Maria

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right...the quote in the OP is from Medj and says "Today, most people to Purgatory, the next greatest number go to Hell, and only a few go directly to Heaven."

she was questioning because she thought Mary said "most soulds go to hell" in Fatima...

that would have been a contradiction...

but its cleared up above now..

she said "many souls go to hell" not "most souls go to hell"

Oh okay. I understand now. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :sorry::o
 
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thereselittleflower

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Apostle Paul encourage us to seek spiritual gifts?

Point taken about Medjugorje. I will stop following these apparitions.

:)

Regarding what Paul spoke about, we had a long discussion about this a little while back. There are a lot of misunderstandings about it.

What is important to remember is we are not free to interpret scripture contrary to the teaching of the Church, and if we try to interpret scripture contrary to the wisdom of the Church expressed through Her doctors and saints, we tread on shakey ground.

To Quote St John of the Cross in the full context of his warnings about this:

Ascent of Mt Carmel, Book III, Ch 31
CHAPTER XXXI
Of the evils which come to the soul when it sets the rejoicing of the will upon this kind of good.

Three principal evils, it seems to me, may come to the soul when it sets its rejoicing upon supernatural good. These are: that it may deceive and be deceived; that it may fall away from the faith; and that it may indulge in vainglory or some other such vanity.

2. As to the first of these, it is a very easy thing to deceive others, and to deceive oneself, by rejoicing in this kind of operation. And the reason is that, in order to know which of these operations are false and which are true, and how and at what time they should be practised, much counsel and much light from God are needful, both of which are greatly impeded by joy in these operations and esteem for them. And this for two reasons: first, because joy blunts and obscures the judgment; second, because, when a man has joy in these things, not only does he the more quickly become eager for them, but he is also the more impelled to practise them out of the proper season. And even supposing the virtues and operations which are practised to be genuine, these two defects suffice for us to be frequently deceived in them, either through not understanding them as they should be understood, or through not profiting by them and not using them at the times and in the ways that are most meet. For, although it is true that, when God gives these gifts and graces, He gives light by which to see them, and the impulse whereby a man may know at what times and in what ways to use them; yet these souls, through the attachment and imperfection which they may have with regard to them, may greatly err, by not using them with the perfection that God desires of them therein, and in the way and at the time that He wills. We read that Balaam desired to do this, when, against the will of God, he determined to go and curse the people of Israel, for which reason God was wroth and purposed to slay him. (636636Numbers xxii, 22-3). And Saint James and Saint John desired to call down fire from Heaven upon the Samaritans because they gave not lodging to Our Saviour, and for this He reproved them.(637637St. Luke ix, 54-5.
3). Here it is evident that these persons were led to determine to perform these works, when it was not meet for them to do so, by a certain imperfect passion, which was inherent in their joy in them and esteem for them. For, when no such imperfection exists, the soul is moved and determined to perform these virtues only in the manner wherein God so moves it, and at His time, and until then it is not right that they should be performed. It was for this reason that God complained of certain prophets, through Jeremias, saying: ‘I sent not the prophets, and they ran; I spake not to them, and they prophesied.’(638638Jeremias xxiii, 21.) And later He says: ‘They deceived My people by their lying and their miracles, when I had not commanded them, neither had I sent them.’(639639Jeremias xxiii, 32.) And in that place He says of them likewise: ‘They see the visions of their heart, and speak of them’(640640Jeremias xxiii, 26.); which would not happen if they had not this abominable attachment to these works.

4. From these passages it is to be understood that the evil of this rejoicing not only leads men to make wicked and perverse use of these graces given by God, as did Balaam and those of whom the prophet here says that they worked miracles whereby they deceived the people, but it even leads them to use these graces without having been given them by God, like those who prophesied their own fancies and published the visions which they invented or which the devil represented to them.

For, when the devil sees them affectioned to these things, he opens a wide field to them, gives them abundant material and interferes with them in many ways; whereupon they spread their sails and become shamelessly audacious in the freedom wherewith they work these marvels.
5. Nor does the evil stop here. To such a point does their joy in these works andtheir eagerness for them extend that, if before they had a secret compact with the devil (and many of them do in fact perform these works by such secret compacts), it now makes them bold enough to work with him by an explicit and manifest compact, submitting themselves to him, by agreement, as his disciples and allies. Hence we have wizards, enchanters, magicians, soothsayers and sorcerers.
I am interrupting this here to mention an infamous case in point, Magdalen of the Cross - she had made a pact with the devil, and she had what appeared to be stigmata, levitations, miraculous healings, prophecies, etc, and fooled Cardinals, Bishops and Priets for some 30 years.

It was only on her death bed that the truth was out and she confessed and was exorcised.
And so far does the joy of these persons in their works carry them that, not only do they seek to purchase gifts and graces with money, as did Simon Magus, in order to serve the devil, but they even strive to obtain sacred things, and (which cannot be said without trembling) Divine things, for even the very Body (641641[Lit., ‘the awful Body.’]) of our Lord Jesus Christ has been seen to be usurped for the use of their wicked deeds and abominations. May God here extend and show to them His great mercy!

6. Everyone will clearly understand how pernicious are such persons to themselves and how prejudicial to Christianity. It may be noted here that all those magicians and soothsayers who lived among the children of Israel, whom Saul destroyed out of the land, because they desired to imitate the true prophets of God, had fallen into such abominations and deceits.

7. He, then, that has supernatural gifts and graces ought to refrain from desiring to practise them, and from rejoicing in so doing, nor ought he to care to exercise them; for God, Who gives Himself to such persons, by supernatural means, for the profit of His Church and of its members, will move them likewise supernaturally in such a manner and at such time as He desires. As He commanded His faithful ones to take no thought as to what they were to say, or as to how they were to say it, since this is the supernatural business of faith, it will likewise be His will (as these operations are no less a supernatural matter) that a man should wait and allow God to work by moving his heart, since it is in the virtue of this working that there will be wrought all virtue. The disciples (so we read in the Acts of the Apostles), although these graces and gifts had been infused within them, prayed to God, beseeching Him to be pleased to stretch forth His hand in making signs and performing works of healing through them, that they might introduce the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ into men’s hearts.642642Acts iv, 29-30.
8. From this first evil may proceed the second, which is a falling away from the faith; this can come to pass after two manners. The first has respect to others; for, when a man sets out, unseasonably and needlessly, to perform a marvel or a mighty work, apart from the fact that this is tempting God, which is a great sin, it may be that he will not succeed, and will engender in the hearts of men discredit and contempt for the faith. For, although at times such persons may succeed because for other reasons and purposes God so wills it, as in the case of Saul’s witch (6436431 Kings [A.V., 1 Samuel] xxviii, 7, ff.) (if it be true that it was indeed Samuel who appeared on that occasion), they will not always so succeed; and, when they do so, they go astray none the less and are blameworthy for having used these graces when it was not fitting. The second manner in which we may fall away is in ourselves and has respect to the merit of faith; for, if a man make much account of these miracles, he ceases to lean upon the substantial practice of faith, which is an obscure habit; and thus, where signs and witnesses abound, there is less merit in believing. In this way Saint Gregory says that faith has no merit when human reason provides experience.(644644‘Nec fides habet meritum cui humana ratio praebet experimentum.’ St. Gregory, Hom. 26 in Evang. (Migne, Vol. LXXVI, p. 1,137).) And thus these marvels are never worked by God save when they are really necessary for belief. Therefore, to the end that His disciples should not be without merit, though they had experience of His resurrection, He did many things before He showed Himself to them, so that they should believe Him without seeing Him. To Mary Magdalene, first of all, He showed the empty tomb, and afterwards bade the angels speak to her645645[St. Luke xxiv, 6; St. John xx, 2.] (for, as Saint Paul says, faith comes by hearing);646646[Romans x, 17.] so that, having heard, she should believe before she saw. And, although she saw Him, it was as an ordinary man, (647647[St. John xx, 15].) that, by the warmth of His presence, He might completely instruct her in the belief which she lacked. And He first sent to tell His disciples, with the women, and afterwards they went to see the tomb. And, as to those who went to Emmaus, He first of all enkindled their hearts in faith so that they might see Him, dissembling with them as He walked.648648St. Luke xxiv, 15. And finally He reproved them all because they had not believed those who had announced to them His resurrection. (649649[St. Luke xxiv, 25-6.]) And He reproved Saint Thomas because he desired to have the witness of His wounds, by telling him that they who saw Him not and yet believed Him were blessed. (650650St. John xx, 29.)
9. And thus it is not the will of God that miracles should be wrought: when He works them, He does so, as it were, because He cannot do otherwise. And for this cause He reproved the Pharisees because they believed not save through signs, saying: ‘Unless ye see marvels and signs, ye believe not.’ (651651St. John iv, 48.) Those, then, who love to rejoice in these supernatural works lose much in the matter of faith.
10. The third evil is that, because of their joy in these works, men commonly fall into vainglory or some other vanity. For even their joyin these wonders, when it is not, as we have said, purely in God and for God, is vanity; which is evident in the reproof given by Our Lord to the disciples because they had rejoiced that devils were subject to them; (652652St. Luke x, 20.) for which joy, if it had not been vain, He would not have reproved them.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.vi.xxxi.html
 
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