Hi!
What scriptures do you use to justify this. Not the cloud of witness one, but that the dead can hear and that they should be prayed to for intersession.
I don't follow sola scriptura. I can point to indicators in scripture for which tradition 'fills in the gaps.'
For example, we can see the martyrs bellow the altar of heaven in Revelations. They can both
see what is happening on earth (namely that God has not avenged them yet) and
are praying for the faithful. Revelations also talks about the prayers of the saints rising like incense before God. Assuming that includes the elders and martyrs in heaven, we might ask what they are praying
for if not for the earth?
In addition, while you may limit the meaning of the cloud of witnesses surrounding us to exclude the possibility of communication, I don't. I think it can be seen as implying that, and given my church's tradition, that's how I take it. I understand if people from other traditions don't see it that way - but that's exactly what it is... competing traditions.
In addition, we do find much support in scripture for intercessionary prayers. This is rather simple - we are to pray for one another, and to ask one another for prayers.
So the tradition of my church puts two and two together. The departed faithful (the saints) surround us, and can see - by God's grace - what is happening. They can pray for us, and we are supposed to ask one another for prayers and to pray for one another. Given the power of the cross in overcoming death, it is a small leap (and one which the tradition universally supports) to asking the saints for intercession. That doesn't mean we worship them or that we think they fulfill the prayer on their own or anything like that. All we're doing is asking them to pray for us.
I might ask the reverse question when you say...
I find this whole thing to be a stretch.
Do you have any scripture or evidence from the tradition of the Church to forbid me from talking to the saints and asking for their prayers? I can't think of anything in scripture which indicate that they CAN'T hear us either.
The cloud of witnesses mentions nothing about their interaction with us. Only that they watch and it doesen't list the extent of what they can see either.
Again, that seems a bit odd to me. So they can see us... sort of... but God won't let them hear us? They surround us, but don't interact with us in any way... so there's a barrier between parts of the Body of Christ (those living on earth and the faithful departed)? To me, this seems to divide Christ, something I'm unwilling to do. And if the saints can see us, as I agree they can, and surround us, as I agree they do, then it hardly seems like a stretch to say they can hear us. And if, by God's grace, they can hear us, then we can ask them for prayers. And if they are continually before God's throne as pictured in Revelations then they can pray for us.
I know that most protestants don't make those connections. But that doesn't make them invalid. To us, saying we ought NOT to pray to saints feels wierd and innovative - like someone trying to divide Christ. And we see these passages of scripture, confirmed by our tradition, as indicating that the communion of the faithful crosses over the grave. There is no separation in Christ - no barrier, no death. Death is overthrown; Christ God is risen.
Anyhow - that's my two cents. I hope it clarifies.
BTW, I asked an Orthodox a long time ago why would I have to pray to a Saint and he told me that I didn't have to and I could pray to a relative. Do you agree with this?
The relative question is easy to answer. Yes. You can pray to a relative if you believe that person to have died in Christ. If not, then it probably wouldn't be that effective, but the Church won't forbid it. You can also pray FOR relatives who have departed. We don't speculate on what effect that prayer has, but offer our prayers, as always, as an expression of our love for one another.
I posted this elsewhere on this forum recently, but it just fits so well that I'll copy-paste it into here... I want to stress how much praying to the saints is about love and not about worship or getting stuff or anything petty. This goes towards answering your other question. Do you have to pray to a saint? Well... Orthodoxy doesn't normally like language of 'have to' or 'minimums.' Technically, no. If you pray only to God you would not be excommunicated. So you don't have to. But it would be in contrast to the faith as we have recieved it... Anyhow - here's what I posted on the other thread...
Prayer, even prayer to saints, is not so often about "getting something" out of it. The idea of 'insert prayer ---> get prayer fulfilled' is somewhat simplistic. Let us be honest; God's will is God's will. All our petitions can ultimately be summarized in "Your Will be done" since, if we have faith, we trust God's will and hope for its ultimate fulfillment. Whatever I'm asking for in the here and now is just limited and finite compared to the knowledge and power of God.
Instead, prayer is about communion and love - prayer brings us into God. It makes us part of His will and participants in it. Faith is necessary for this. This is why, if we have but faith the size of a mustard seed, we can move mountains. God moves the mountain. If we have faith, if we are IN His will, then we'll be praying for that mountain to move when GOD moves it.
We pray to be one with God. This is why the ultimate prayer, at least from an Orthodox perspective, is prayer of the heart. We will often repeat lines from a psalm (to meditate on a deep Truth and to occupy our active mind with prayer to God), but there comes a time when those words wash away - when God comes to us (or, more accurately, we are finally focused enough on Him to be aware of His presence) and the awesome, deep peace of His presence pervades our hearts. At this, all words stop. We stop. There is only the soul in communion with its Lord. That is the essence of prayer. It is an act of communion - of unity. It is an act of love.
That love is NOT a self-centered love though. God is NOT isolation or solitary. He is community. He is triune - 3 in 1. God is love not because God loves Himself, but because Father loves Son loves Spirit and so on. When we enter into communion with God, we enter into community (notice the link in those two words?). That community, that family, extends beyond the Trinity. If we are in communion with God, then we are in communion with others who are in communion with God. God's love is great and large. It isn't "just Jesus and me." That's not what we are called to. We are called to LOVE. To LOVE GOD and to LOVE our neighbor. Since we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, that neighbor includes the saints.
There is no death in Christ. The saints live! Christ has conquered death and the saints live. They live in Christ. They live in the communion of love we all aspire to. As such, we converse with them, so that we may love them and be one with them ("May they be one Father, as I am in You and You are in Me," prays Christ in John 17). That oneness extends beyond the grave, because God has overcome the grave and it is a oneness in God.
So we pray to the saints, not because God can't provide the things we need, and not to exclude prayer to God. We pray directly to God constantly. But just as we TALK with others in order to spend time with them, to get to know them, to have a relationship with them... well, we are called to the family, the loving communion, of the Church. The saints are part of that. I pray to them to love them. They pray for me to love me. It's all about love, and celebrating the conquest of death.
That's why we pray to the saints
Praying to the saints is an expression of the Gospel in its fullness. It is, therefore, a part of the faith and a part of our Church. To not pray to a saint wouldn't get one excommunicated, but it wouldn't be the fullness of Orthodoxy, if that makes sense. Sorry for being a bit unclear there.
My other issue with this is how do we know that anyone a church declares a Saint has already recived the Lord's judgement for their actions on earth? It isn't clear whether or not judgment takes place for the dead before or after the second coming. It would not make sense to me for them to have such high positions before reciving final judgement or even to be declared Saints in the Orthodox or Catholic sense. Just random thought.
It's an entirely fair thought. A quick fyi: the EO believes that final judgment takes place after the 2nd coming, so the saints today are not in Heaven / the New Earth in the final sense of things. They are in an intermediate state we sometimes call "paradise" or the "bosom of Abraham" (since that's the title given to it in a parable in Luke).
So we agree that final judgment hasn't taken place for anyone yet, including the saints. And yes - there is a DANGER, a real one, in passing ANY judgment - positive or negative - on ANYONE. This is precisely why Orthodoxy rejects any sense of "assurance of salvation." We cannot even judge ourselves. God alone may judge.
There are occasions, though, and they are rare, when God reveals His judgment ahead of time. The process for the canonization of a saint is organic in the EO. We don't have a system for it. But generally, those who knew the individual and new the quality of their faith and Christian walk will start to venerate them as a saint (for that's all a saint is - a genuine Christian). Often, God's approval will be accompanied by miraculous signs, but not always. Some of these include the body weeping myrh or not decomposing (ask and I'll offer an explanation for why these often show up, but I'm already typing a long post). Often, the prayers asked for from a saint will be answered by God in miraculous ways, leading people to venerate the saint more and, thereby, confirming God's approval that, indeed, this person was a saint.
Why would God do that? Well, partly because God holds up examples for us in every generation which confirm some critical things:
1) The gospel is still alive and saving.
2) God is still active in the world.
3) It is possible to reach salvation in this culture.
4) For us to imitate Godly individuals who lived in similar cultures to our own.
Beyond that, why God reveals some saints and leaves others (the majority) hidden is quite a mystery. God's will is God's will. Our job as the Church isn't to question it, but to recognize the reality of it (namely that God does indicate the sainthood of some, and that prayers to the saints CAN be effective if God wills it - and that sometimes God will answer a prayer only through a saints PRECISELY to hold that individual up as an example and for the above 4 reasons). Once we recognize that, then the saint is called a saint, icons are painted, akathists sung, etc etc.
But that is why we don't just call everyone a saint. We DO believe in the sainthood of all believers. Those who endure to the end WILL BE SAVED and are, therefore, saints. Paul quite properly calls them all saints in his epistles.
We just want to exercise more caution. Judging others is God's business. If He doesn't reveal it to us, we should probably not pass judgment ourselves. Therefore, we also have a day set aside for the unknown saints, who, in our opinion, vastly outnumber the known ones.
Anyhoo, my deal is this. Where the Bible is silent, I am silent.
I don't find support for that in scripture or tradition. The Bible does not, in itself, declare a list of books that you ought to call scripture. If you are silent where the Bible is silent, then where did you decide what books to include? You'd have to be relying on tradition in some way.
Also, it still takes an individual to interpret the Bible. It doesn't interpret itself, translate itself, select itself, etc etc. The assumptions, both historical and theological, which we bring to scripture inform how we interpret it. That's tradition.
So, as you can see above, I don't find prayers to the saints to be at all at odds with the gospel, scripture, or tradition. Quite the opposite, I find them to support it. You will, I'm guessing, disagree with me. But I hope to at least convince you that my position is reasonible. At that point, it isn't that the Bible is silent, or the Gospel contradicts it, or tradition doesn't support it. At that point, it will be just a difference of interpretation - a choice.
I think that's a generally good rule and while I think it's fine for some traditions to not come from the Bible, they shouldn't contradict it nor should they be developed into doctrine. I think the Book is just too clear on this subject. Romans 8:26-27
Romans 8:26-27 says nothing of scripture; it's talking about the Spirit teaching us to pray and praying through us. I'm really confused how that either a) contradicts prayers to the saints or b) demonstrates sola scriptura... If anyting, it seems to support the idea of praying as part of communion with God and one another that I quoted above...
Incidently, in the interest of keeping this thread on topic, I won't respond to any replies you make against my points on sola scriptura. I'll certainly read them, but I'll just agree to disagree
within this thread. If you'd like to debate / discuss sola scriptura, I'd be happy to do so, but would prefer to head over to TAW or another appropriate place to do so. Hope that's ok!
In Christ,
Macarius
They are now in the very Presence of Christ.. Are they divided how Thelka? Are they divided as in life and death in human terms? Yes they are.. For they are walking no more among us.. Are they divided such as in the body of Christ.. Nope for they are now at Home with the Lord. Those of us that are still on this earth look forward to that wonderful hope..To be at Home with Christ..
I think I'm gonna bake some peanut butter cookies with those chocolate kisses in'em today! All this debating has me in a baking mood! Lol! 
