"We're Not Out To Hurt Anybody."

[AnneSally]

Human sacrifices DID occur and yes the Druids did sacrifice people,

Yeah, they did.

 

[AnneSally]

To read ancient texts using modern eyes can lead to some pretty absurd results.

Who's doing that?

 

[Fuzzy]

To read ancient texts using modern eyes can lead to some pretty absurd results.

Who's doing that?

Possibly everyone but the atheists and Pastafarians. And maybe them, too.


Foo.

 

[sidhe]

Yeah, they did.

And the rest of the post?

As an aside - I'm probably the only Celtic pagan I know who thinks voluntary sacrifices are a pretty good idea. But I'm nuts.

 

[Booko]

Who's doing that?

See Fuzzy's post #103.

Except I only leave the Pastafarians off the hook.

 

[Druweid]

Originally Posted by Steezie

Human sacrifices DID occur and yes the Druids did sacrifice people,
​

Yeah, they did.

 

[AnneSally]

​

Sowwy Druweid - I can only go on what I learnt at University, perhaps the Ancient History department got it wrong?

 

[morningstar2651]

Sowwy Druweid - I can only go on what I learnt at University, perhaps the Ancient History department got it wrong?

Possibly. Have you ever read any of Ronald Hutton's works? I highly recommend them.

He recently (last year) wrote a book on the Druids that looks interesting.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Sowwy Druweid - I can only go on what I learnt at University, perhaps the Ancient History department got it wrong?

An ancient history department that takes a Roman source dealing with the enemies of the empire and treats it as undisputable fact is indeed not worthy of the name.
Even my high school Latin teacher knew better than that.

That's not to say that *no* human sacrifices whatsoever took place in the ancient world. Far from it. Leave it to the fluff bunnies to imagine a non-violent, pre-Christian paradise.
I'd dispute, however, that such sacrifices were as numerous, brutal and far-spread as the Romans would have us believe.


Personally, I think if there's one thing we really owe to Christianity, it's that we've gotten rid of the need to spill blood. In case you're familiar with René Girard's "Violence and the Sacred", you may know that the practice of sacrifice is not only due to magical thinking, but seems to derive from the social tensions that plagued humanity once it had gained a degree of self-consciousness that could compete with instinctual urges. Hierarchies that were once clear-cut and immovable blurred, and people started to be plagued by aggressive jealousy.
Girard believes that at one point, the process of "othering" kicked in, aiming all the aggressions of the community at some outsider, the "odd one out", a misfit, a foreigner. They killed him, only then starting to realize that for the first time in ages, they had been acting as a community, feeling a strong bond that tied them together in contrast to the "other". Thus, they jumped to the conclusion that the victim was either a necessary sacrifice demanded by the gods, singled out to restore order by spilling his blood, or else a sacrificial deity come among them to achieve the same goal.

 

[AnneSally]

An ancient history department that takes a Roman source dealing with the enemies of the empire and treats it as undisputable fact is indeed not worthy of the name. Even my high school Latin teacher knew better than that

They didn't do that. But thanks for giving your "expert" assumption. I take it you're a Professor of Roman history?

 

[AnneSally]

That's not to say that *no* human sacrifices whatsoever took place in the ancient world. Far from it. Leave it to the fluff bunnies to imagine a non-violent, pre-Christian paradise.
I'd dispute, however, that such sacrifices were as numerous, brutal and far-spread as the Romans would have us believe.

That's an easy dispute to make. What primary source material are you basing that "dispute" on?

 

[AnneSally]

Possibly. Have you ever read any of Ronald Hutton's works? I highly recommend them.

Possibly or maybe not, I had to read hundreds of books and articles over the course of the degree so I can't remember entirely, but I just did a google on him and it appears his area of expertise is British History circa 1700-1800s? I may have come across something of his, possibly, because I did some papers on that time period too, but I can't remember now, I'd have to rummage through my notes......argh, who has the time....

He recently (last year) wrote a book on the Druids that looks interesting.

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[AnneSally]

Possibly.

I think not.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

That's an easy dispute to make. What primary source material are you basing that "dispute" on?

Archaeological evidence: bones don't lie. Large-scale human sacrifices like the ones Caesar described would leave traces - lots of traces.

 

[AnneSally]

Archaeological evidence: bones don't lie. Large-scale human sacrifices like the ones Caesar described would leave traces - lots of traces.

So in the absence of archeological evidence you make your dispute?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

So in the absence of archeological evidence you make your dispute?

Are you honestly trying to suggest that you studied history at the university? Are you sure that you're not talking about some private Bible college teaching "Creation Science" or some such stuff?

It's simple, really: mass sacrifices leave traces, even if it's just the charred remains of human bones dumped into a pit near an ancient holy place.

Large-scale human sacrifices -> lots of corpses -> lots of traces

no traces -> no corpses -> no large-scale human sacrifices.

A parallel would be the portrayal of American indigenous people at the hands of the first European colonialists, especially the explorers' obsession with cannibalism: while the ritual consumption of slain enemies was indeed practiced by some indigenous peoples, as part of their religious ceremonies, the whole practice was blown to epic proportions in the imagination of Europeans.
It enabled them to justify their own conduct in relation to the indigenous population, as their conquest, enslavement and even extermination of the "savages" could be conducted in the name of civilization.

 

[eldermike]

If a man settles in a region where even one (1) person was eaten for religious purposes by the indigenous people, he should:
A) Ignore it and tell his family somthing like; even if little bobby or Susie becomes dinner, it's our fault, we are the problem.
B) Shoot the indigenous people on site.

Our success and freedoms today were brought to you by real men, men who refused to sit through even one stinking lecture given by a fruit cake.

 

[Druweid]

Sowwy Druweid - I can only go on what I learnt at University, perhaps the Ancient History department got it wrong?

Please don't get the idea that I'm opposed to fair and reasonable debate, that's certainly not the case at all. This was more my sentiment regarding the continuation of this in a new thread.

-- Druweid

 

[Druweid]

Possibly. Have you ever read any of Ronald Hutton's works? I highly recommend them.

He recently (last year) wrote a book on the Druids that looks interesting.

Possibly or maybe not, I had to read hundreds of books and articles over the course of the degree so I can't remember entirely, but I just did a google on him and it appears his area of expertise is British History circa 1700-1800s? I may have come across something of his, possibly, because I did some papers on that time period too, but I can't remember now, I'd have to rummage through my notes......argh, who has the time....

Thanks for the recommendation.

There is also "A Brief History of the Druids" by Peter Berresford Ellis, (c) 2002; and "Druids" by Stuart Piggot, (c) 1985. Ellis is a well-established historian/researcher, and Ellis, a well-reputed archaeologist, so we have two slightly different, yet authoritative, views.

Literally,
-- Druweid

 

[Druweid]

Sowwy Druweid - I can only go on what I learnt at University, perhaps the Ancient History department got it wrong?

It wouldn't be the first time an academic institution was corrected. i was always taught that Columbus discovered America. Ummmm, oooops!