Praying To The Saints

[yashualover]

If There is only one mediator between man and God, i.e., Jesus, why take into yourself the notion that anyone else can be?

Amen Great answer

 

[Thekla]

Originally Posted by Ormly

If There is only one mediator between man and God, i.e., Jesus, why take into yourself the notion that anyone else can be?
​

1 Timothy 2
5For
there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.

a mesitis (here translated as mediator, who knows why ?) is a covenant-maker, etc

intercessor (enteuxis) is one who prays for ...

I would think the RCs when using "mediation" would mean enteuxis, not mesitis

 

[yashualover]

There is ony one mediator between God and man. That is Jesus.

Praying to the Saints is not by passing Jesus. That is a common misconception.

Praying to a Saints is asking to them to pray with and for us, because prayer is of the Spirit. Just as we ask others on this world to pray with and for us. That's not by passing Jesus.

Peace

What part of one do you not understand:o


1Ti 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings-a human, Christ Jesus.

 

[Thekla]

What part of one do you not understand:o


1Ti 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings-a human, Christ Jesus.

see #562 (above)

 

[yashualover]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, There is only one God.

All three are one therefore all three are diety.

No saints have ever been diety nor ever will be.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

Prayer is both communication and worship.

To pray to any human being dead or alive is the sin of idolotry and breaks the first commandment, this would also include pictures and statues.

 

[Thekla]

Prayer is both communication and worship.

you have given the definition of deeisis (tr. pray)

requesting prayer from others is paraklesis (sometimes translated pray)

 

[MamaZ]

Still there they are in thier Heavenly Home out side of thier body because it has not been raised yet.. And still there is only one Mediator in heaven between man and God and that Is Jesus.. Not the saints.. Just Jesus..

 

[Thekla]

Still there they are in thier Heavenly Home out side of thier body because it has not been raised yet.. And still there is only one Mediator in heaven between man and God and that Is Jesus.. Not the saints.. Just Jesus..

any Christian can be an intercessor, a word that in English overlaps with the English definition of mediator. But only Christ is our mesitis (see above).

Peter teaches that "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)

those in heaven live, and the body of Christ is united in the Holy Spirit.

 

[MamaZ]

What you have to understand is that they are the dead in Christ.. Okay.. We have no scriptual basis to believe that those who are dead in Christ can hear and know what is going on down here with the Living in Christ..You cannot talk to them on a one and one basis because they are not here to talk to.. Therefore in order to talk to them you have to offer up supplications to them.. Unlike those here on earth that we can speak to in person.. To offer up supplications to them is a form of PRAYER. To which Jesus tells us to Pray to the Father who knows all things.. Never once is it mentioned that the dead in Christ know anything other than what is where they are..

 

[Thekla]

What you have to understand is that they are the dead in Christ.. Okay.. We have no scriptual basis to believe that those who are dead in Christ can hear and know what is going on down here with the Living in Christ..You cannot talk to them on a one and one basis because they are not here to talk to.. Therefore in order to talk to them you have to offer up supplications to them.. Unlike those here on earth that we can speak to in person.. To offer up supplications to them is a form of PRAYER. To which Jesus tells us to Pray to the Father who knows all things.. Never once is it mentioned that the dead in Christ know anything other than what is where they are..

in Acts, Paul hears the prayer (paraklesis) of the Macedonian man in his dream, although he is not physically present. In Corinthians, Paul knows the condition of one in Corinth though he is "absent in body", because he is "present in spirit" (1 Cor 5:3). It is the Holy Spirit who connects those in the body of Christ. In Hebrews 12, Paul states that we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, which includes the "firstborn ones" and the "spirits of the righteous who have been perfected (teleos, completed); we are surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses". The term here, nefos (cloud) is related to the Hebrew "shekkinah"; we are united in the Holy Spirit. And, as with Paul, it is through the Holy Spirit that any in the body "hear", even when not "physically present".

And again, supplication, which can also mean asking/entreating, is paraklesis. Deeisis is to God alone.

 

[MamaZ]

in Acts, Paul hears the prayer (paraklesis) of the Macedonian man in his dream, although he is not physically present. In Corinthians, Paul knows the condition of one in Corinth though he is "absent in body", because he is "present in spirit" (1 Cor 5:3). It is the Holy Spirit who connects those in the body of Christ. In Hebrews 12, Paul states that we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, which includes the "firstborn ones" and the "spirits of the righteous who have been perfected (teleos, completed); we are surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses". The term here, nefos (cloud) is related to the Hebrew "shekkinah"; we are united in the Holy Spirit. And, as with Paul, it is through the Holy Spirit that any in the body "hear", even when not "physically present".

And again, supplication, which can also mean asking/entreating, is paraklesis. Deeisis is to God alone.

The prayer that Paul heard was being offered by one of the living on earth and not one that was dead in Christ..
The Holy Spirit does connect the living to Christ here on earth.. For we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul tells us know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Spirit..That the Spirit of God resides in you.. The dead in Christ do not have thier bodies.. They have not been risen Yet..So they are now in the very Presence of Christ..
Read all of the part you have quoted as surrounded by clouds of witnesses.. you have taken that part out of the context of the scripture. They are the cloud of witnesses to faith.. Not to us..

 

[Thekla]

The prayer that Paul heard was being offered by one of the living on earth and not one that was dead in Christ..
The Holy Spirit does connect the living to Christ here on earth.. For we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul tells us know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Spirit..That the Spirit of God resides in you.. The dead in Christ do not have thier bodies.. They have not been risen Yet..So they are now in the very Presence of Christ..
Read all of the part you have quoted as surrounded by clouds of witnesses.. you have taken that part out of the context of the scripture. They are the cloud of witnesses to faith.. Not to us..

so the body of Christ is divided ?

and the Holy Spirit, who preserves us in body soul and spirit (1 Thes 5:23) leaves us, body soul and spirit, when we die ?

those with Moses, and nothing living, could touch the MT., or ascend. But this is no longer the case. In Christ, through the Holy Spirit, we have come. And those in the heavenly Jerusalem are described, enumerated.

 

[MamaZ]

so the body of Christ is divided ?

and the Holy Spirit, who preserves us in body soul and spirit (1 Thes 5:23) leaves us, body soul and spirit, when we die ?

Nope for when the body dies it has no Spirit.. They are now in the very Presence of Christ.. Are they divided how Thelka? Are they divided as in life and death in human terms? Yes they are.. For they are walking no more among us.. Are they divided such as in the body of Christ.. Nope for they are now at Home with the Lord. Those of us that are still on this earth look forward to that wonderful hope..To be at Home with Christ..

 

[Thekla]

and the soul ?

when the body dies, if the spirit leaves, does the spirit cease to exist ?

 

[MamaZ]

Has death been swallowed up in victory yet?

 

[DarkNLovely]

Hi Folks!

My firm belife is that ONLY GOD IS OMNIPRESENT. When Saint whoever can hear two peoples prayers at the same time, God ceases to be God and we are no better than pagans. This is proof of God's omnipresence:

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
Ephesians 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high.
Psalm 123:1
Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.
I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
I Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Romans 10:6,7
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? Or, Who shall descend into the deep?
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And my personal favorite:

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, ‘‘Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.

If was possible for anybody else to have this kind of intimacy with my soul, then I would feel truly violated.

The whole problem with this is that it deifys people who should not be deified. There is no support for this whatsoever in the New or Old Testaments. Also, we are commanded to pray for another on this earth so it's completly different then asking a living person on earth. It is obvious that some kind of self-containing power has been attributed to the Saints, or else no one would pray to them. When one prays to them, one is SUBMITTING to whatever power or advantage they belive they have. The only SPIRITUAL POWER we should submit to is that of God and him alone. A qestion that has never been answered for me well, is why is the prayer of Saints so important? If it is essentially the same thing as asking someone on earth, then why not just do that? The conclusion that I have some to is because the Saints are deified. Another issue for me is, why can't I pray to a relative I trust instead of a Saint I don't know? Where does it stop? When asked how to pray, Christ said "Our Father.." Not any other name. Christ alone is our way to Him.
​

 

[Thekla]

Hi, DarkNLovely

actually, the Saints - and the rest of us - have no power in prayer. When James (Iakovos) says that "the prayer of the righteous is of much effect" (I'm paraphrasing), it is more accurately "the prayer of the righteous man, energized, is of much effect." The 'energizing' is the action of God. Christ said that when He left, He would send "another Spirit"; it is the Holy Spirit who remains with, sustains and comforts us. It is through the Holy Spirit that we have communion with Christ, and with one another; it is through the Holy Spirit that we are the body of Christ.

Our interactions with one another, and our communion here on earth are through the Holy Spirit. At least twice, Paul is physically absent but knows about others far distant. In Acts, he hears the prayer (paraklesis, beseeching) of the man from Macedonia. In 1 Cor 5:3, Paul recounts that though he is absent in body, he is present in spirit and therefore knows the condition of one in that Church. Clearly, these things do not occur through the "power of Paul", but in the Holy Spirit.

As the body of Christ is not divided, but united through the Holy Spirit, the Saints who are not physically present can hear only by the grace of God. In this sense, no great or greater 'power' is attributed to any person. Instead, our requests to the Saints confess the undivided nature of the body of Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the glory of God.

 

[Thekla]

Has death been swallowed up in victory yet?

Christ conquered death by His resurrection.

 

[DarkNLovely]

Hi, DarkNLovely

actually, the Saints - and the rest of us - have no power in prayer. When James (Iakovos) says that "the prayer of the righteous is of much effect" (I'm paraphrasing), it is more accurately "the prayer of the righteous man, energized, is of much effect." The 'energizing' is the action of God. Christ said that when He left, He would send "another Spirit"; it is the Holy Spirit who remains with, sustains and comforts us. It is through the Holy Spirit that we have communion with Christ, and with one another; it is through the Holy Spirit that we are the body of Christ.

Our interactions with one another, and our communion here on earth are through the Holy Spirit. At least twice, Paul is physically absent but knows about others far distant. In Acts, he hears the prayer (paraklesis, beseeching) of the man from Macedonia. In 1 Cor 5:3, Paul recounts that though he is absent in body, he is present in spirit and therefore knows the condition of one in that Church. Clearly, these things do not occur through the "power of Paul", but in the Holy Spirit.

As the body of Christ is not divided, but united through the Holy Spirit, the Saints who are not physically present can hear only by the grace of God. In this sense, no great or greater 'power' is attributed to any person. Instead, our requests to the Saints confess the undivided nature of the body of Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the glory of God.

THEKLA!

I haven't seen you in a million bajillion years! Lol! How ya been?

 

[Thekla]

THEKLA!

I haven't seen you in a million bajillion years! Lol! How ya been?

It has been a long time !!! Life marches on, with or without me

How about you