Disagreeing with beliefs, can we just say No?

[TrustAndObey]

You know, BFA, it's okay to admit that you're wrong about something. I'm not going to beat you up about it. But you are wrong that the feasts were added to the tables of stone. Dead wrong.

I had to answer these quickly...

Actually, the word “only” does not exist in Genesis 2. Leviticus 23 is abundantly clear that God set aside many different days for holy use.

It might as well say ONLY, it’s the ONLY day He rested from creation!

Were the feast Sabbaths written on stone (NO!)?

As were other sabbaths. Is there confirmation that all sabbaths should be observed today, or is it merely confirmation that there were Jews in the life of Paul who didn’t understand what Christ had just done?

You tell me. How exactly has the Feast of Tabernacles been fulfilled?

How exactly was the Sabbath commandment on stone been fulfilled? We know it wasn’t fulfilled by Christ or it wouldn’t have been around in after the cross!

Jesus said anything written in the law concerning HIM has an end. Sacrifices, the Passover Lamb, etc!

Did He say that everything concerning Him had an end? I sure hope not.

A number of translations attach the concept of holiness to the idea of setting one day aside as special. For what other reason do the Scriptures indicate that a man should consider one day as more important than another?

NIV5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

ESV5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

NKJV5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

MSG5Or, say, one person thinks that some days should be set aside as holy and another thinks that each day is pretty much like any other. There are good reasons either way. So, each person is free to follow the convictions of conscience.

AMP 5One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind.

CEV 5Some of the Lord's followers think one day is more important than another. Others think all days are the same. But each of you should make up your own mind.

Yeah, so? Do any of those translations say “Sabbath”?

Look around you BFA. There are people in this world that are “Christian” one day a week for two hours in church.

Is it true or untrue that we are not to judge one another based upon days?

We can’t, the church can. Do you esteem Christmas above any other day? Or Easter? You don’t think Romans 14 is addressing things like that at all?

Seriously BFA, are those verses telling us that GOD didn’t esteem one day above another….did HE command us to too? Are those verses telling us that every day should be exactly the same or are they telling us that we should do whatever we do, every day, to the glory of God?

You can’t be Christian 6 days a week.

If Paul were telling us that we were to directly DISOBEY a direct command from the mouth of God Himself, don’t you think it would’ve been a lot clearer than that?

Every day, if I happen to look at the clock when it’s 11:11 I say a prayer. I have done this since I was a child and nobody recommended that I do it. It was a covenant that *I* made with God when I was very little (ha…I’ve never told anyone this before….and as I was typing this it turned 11:11!).

It is UNCANNY (seriously) how many times I’ve glanced over and that’s exactly what time it is.

I know that I should pray without ceasing, but I get caught up in “life”, BFA, so this is something I’ve done as a way to remind me of what life is all about.

If I were to tell YOU, as a fellow Christian, that you should do it too….do you have to? Would you feel convinced in your own mind that it was a necessity for your Christian walk?

I also know that fasting is a great way to humble the soul, but I don’t do it often enough. If another Christian told me I HAD to do it on certain days, I would disagree with them. However, WHENEVER they do it or I do it, it should be to the glory of God!

Is it true or untrue that SDAism concludes that, among those who are alive at “the end of time,” salvation is based upon the day upon which a man worships God?

Untrue. I sure hope that’s not the case since I worship God on Sunday too. I worship Him seven days a week.

It’s not just about the day. It’s about disobeying God’s commands to follow man-made traditions.

When Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were told they had to obey the law of the land and bow down, they knew it would be disobeying God and God PROTECTED them because they refused to do it. He didn’t protect them FROM, He protected them THROUGH.

Look at all the times in scripture that God’s people were told to obey a law that would go against God? Did they do it? Did God protect them from, or through? They had faith they’d be protected even as they were going into a FURNACE they had faith.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Please provide Scriptural evidence to support this claim.

I don’t have scriptural evidence for the early Christians being afraid to eat the food sacrificed to pagan gods any more than you have scriptural evidence that Romans 14 is talking about the Sabbath!

I KNOW it’s not talking about the Sabbath. Colossians was written after Romans. I KNOW the Sabbath was still around then!

Let’s say Romans 14 is talking about the Sabbath commandment….did Paul have the authority to change God’s law?

I KNOW that God wouldn’t give us one or two vague verses about wiping out something as important as His commandments, which we’re told to OBEY.

Do you know what’s in the ark of the covenant? Do you know where the ark IS?

And yet you are able to agree that foods are shadows of things to come.

There will be food on the new earth. There will be new moons and Sabbaths on the new earth as well. The “shadow” was of letting man judge us.

Please cite evidence that any of these practices were in existence during the days of Paul.

It’s the general message, BFA. Why do we esteem one day above the other if God doesn’t? You won’t find scriptural evidence for Christmas, yet “Christians” in this world still believe it is the day of Christ’s birth.

Google the fact that Ishtar (now called Easter) was around in Paul’s day. It was.

Please provide Scriptural evidence for “mass fasting days.”

Romans 14. LOL I got nuthin. I know Romans 14 isn’t about the Sabbath though!

Like I said, there are writings by early Christians that my old bible cited (it wasn’t an SDA bible in case you’re wondering). It was a Scoffied bible if that helps.

What Romans 14 confirms is that NO PERSON or DENOMINATION should judge one another based upon special days. Colossians 2 also confirms this conclusion.

Colossians 2 says the body of Christ can judge. The body of Christ is His church. Unless you think His human body is still around judging people.

. . . such as the date upon which a man first observed a sabbath. We can only prove for certain that man was observing a sabbath in Exodus 16 (and not prior thereto).

DJConklin pointed something out to me the other day that I found very interesting…..do you remember at the Tower of Babel when the languages were confused? Look how many languages that split from that have their seventh-day named SABBATH! In Spanish, the seventh day is Sábado. The list goes on and on. J That was way before Sinai.

Not true. God esteemed all of the days listed in Leviticus 23, not just the seventh day.

Please. Did He esteem them enough to write them on stone? Did He ever call His holy seventh-day written on a stone an “ordinance”?

SDAism has concluded that many of the God-given convocations have changed.

Boy, you sure give us Adventists more credit than we give ourselves! LOL

JESUS said the things concerning Him in the law would have an end. Not us.

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

Praise God, in Jesus, IT IS FINISHED!

It was finished on the cross. Yet the Sabbath was still around after that. There ya go!

Q: Can you provide Scriptural evidence to support this claim?

Galatians 4:21-31 confirms that it is the covenant given at Sinai that we are to be rid of!! We are no longer to be burdened again by the ministry of death engraved in letters on stones.

There were two covenants given at Sinai. Are you aware of that? There are also different kinds of covenants, you know that right?

For instance….Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

God made a covenant between Himself and the earth…..between Him and every living creature on the earth. I wasn’t there then, were you? There were eight people there then BFA. But do you still see rainbows?

Some covenants were commanded, some were agreed upon. God COMMANDED that we obey His law written on stone.

Then ALL LAWS have ended, for not one jot or tittle will pass until ALL is accomplished! Scripture does not offer the freedom to claim that some laws have been fulfilled and others have not!

SURE IT DOES!!!! Jesus said that all laws concerning HIM had to be fulfilled.

Here’s those pesky verses again:

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.

God wrote the Ten Commandments on stone HIMSELF, BFA. The prophets didn’t write them. Moses didn’t write them. David didn’t write them in the psalms.

Now come on.

 

[sciana]

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I don’t have scriptural evidence for the early Christians being afraid to eat the food sacrificed to pagan gods any more than you have scriptural evidence that Romans 14 is talking about the Sabbath!

One day more sacred than another versus every day alike. How could that not address the weekly Sabbath? Can you say you view every day alike or do you view one day more sacred than another?

I KNOW it’s not talking about the Sabbath. Colossians was written after Romans. I KNOW the Sabbath was still around then!

The Jewish Sabbath is still around now. Judiazers were part of the early church and Paul addressed that issue.

Let’s say Romans 14 is talking about the Sabbath commandment….did Paul have the authority to change God’s law?

I KNOW that God wouldn’t give us one or two vague verses about wiping out something as important as His commandments, which we’re told to OBEY.

Paul writes in Galatians 4 " 21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
"REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say?
"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman."

We are to cast out the covenant from Sinai.


Also 2 Corinthians 3 speaks directly to this:



"4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."



Do you know the Bible calls the 10 commandments the words of the covenant?


Here are 2 texts that say - cast off the old covenant and calls the words of the 10 commandments the ministry of death that has come to have no glory and describes it as fading away. What about those verses is not clear to you?

Colossians 2 says the body of Christ can judge. The body of Christ is His church. Unless you think His human body is still around judging people.

Huh? How do you get that from the verse?

"16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's."

Where does this suggest that the church is to judge? Isn't the church made up of people? People can't judge, but the church can? In order for the church to judge people have to judge.

DJConklin pointed something out to me the other day that I found very interesting…..do you remember at the Tower of Babel when the languages were confused? Look how many languages that split from that have their seventh-day named SABBATH! In Spanish, the seventh day is Sábado. The list goes on and on. J That was way before Sinai.

If you study this issue you will find that even Adventist scholars disagree on where the term Sabbath came from in the different languages.

See here:

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"In spite of extensive efforts of more than a century of study into extra-Israelite Sabbath origins, it is still shrouded in mystery. No hypothesis whether astrological, menological, sociological, etymological, or cultic commands the respect of a scholarly consensus. Each hypothesis or combination of hypotheses has insurmountable problems. The quest for the origin of the Sabbath outside of the Old Testament cannot be pronounced to have been successful. It is, therefore, not surprising that this quest has been pushed into the background of studies on the Sabbath in recent years."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](p. 849. Vol. 5. Gerhard F. Ha[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]sel. "Sabbath." David Noel Freedman. Editor. [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The Anchor Bible Dictionary[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]. New York. Doubleday.1992)[/FONT]

It was finished on the cross. Yet the Sabbath was still around after that.There ya go!

The Passover is still around too.

There were two covenants given at Sinai. Are you aware of that?

Please provide scripture for this idea.

Some covenants were commanded, some were agreed upon. God COMMANDED that we obey His law written on stone.

What is your definition of "covenant"?

God wrote the Ten Commandments on stone HIMSELF, BFA. The prophets didn’t write them. Moses didn’t write them. David didn’t write them in the psalms.

Now come on.

What is your view of inspiration? Do you believe God wrote the law of Moses through Moses? Was that subject to error? What we know of the 10 commandments is not from what was written on stone, but what was written by Moses so how do you know that is directly from God in the way God gave it?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

But you are wrong that the feasts were added to the tables of stone. Dead wrong.

Of one thing I am quite certain, Scripture consistently intermingles the laws you call “moral” with the laws that you call “ceremonial.”

I’ve posted this before, but ask that you consider it carefully. Consider the ways in which the sabbath is grouped together with practices that even SDAs believe are fulfilled:


1. Shewbread and setting out bread

"Some of their relatives of the sons of the Kohathites were over the showbread to prepare it every sabbath." 1 Chronicles 9:32

"This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant." Leviticus 24:8

2. Frankincense

"You shall put pure frankincense on each row that it may be a memorial portion for the bread, even an offering by fire to the LORD. Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel." Lev. 24:7-8

3. New moons

"He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well." 2 Kings 4:23

"And it shall be from new moon to new moon. And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD." Isaiah 66:23

"Thus says the Lord GOD, "The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on the sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon." Ezekiel 46:1

"Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths." 2 Chronicles 8:12-13

"We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God." Nehemiah 10:32-33

3. The 7th year rest

"You shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Ex. 23:10-11

"During the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard." Lev. 25:4

4. Offerings (Burnt & Grain)

"The burnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish." Ezekiel 46:4

"When the prince provides a freewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be opened for him And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out." Ezekiel 46:12

"Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

"They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD." 1 Chronicles 23:30-31

"He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD." 2 Chronicles 31:3

"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly." Isaiah 1:13

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17

5. Other sabbaths such as Religious festivals or holy convocations

"'Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:3

"The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.. . . " Leviticus 23

"You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD." Lev. 26:2

"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel." 2 Chronicles 2:4

"Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them." Ezekiel 20:12

"In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths." Ezekiel 44:24

"I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths And all her festal assemblies." Hosea 2:11

Sadly, the last time I posted this information, I was accused of plagiarism. I can assure you that, other than appropriately citing Scriptural sources, not one word of this post has been plagiarized.

I'm not going to beat you up about it.

Here’s hoping that we can now move on.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It might as well say ONLY, it’s the ONLY day He rested from creation!

It is not the only day that God set aside as holy. This very relevant point is one that you consistently seem to want to avoid.

We know it wasn’t fulfilled by Christ or it wouldn’t have been around in after the cross!

And you’re suggesting that other feasts weren’t around after the cross? What do you do with Acts 12:4?

Yeah, so? Do any of those translations say “Sabbath”?

They certainly connect the concepts of “sacred” or “holy” or “better” to the concept of “day.” Are you going to judge others based on sacred days? Will God?

Look around you BFA. There are people in this world that are “Christian” one day a week for two hours in church.

Absolutely. There are such people in my church, in other protestant churches and even in SDA churches. What is the relevance?

I KNOW it’s not talking about the Sabbath.

Only because your agenda leads you to such a conclusion, not because you’ve actually considered what the text says.

Colossians was written after Romans. I KNOW the Sabbath was still around then!

And, according to Acts 12:4, the Passover was also around after the cross. That doesn’t confirm that God intended it to be, only that there were humans who elected to observe it. If we have the Passover Lamb, what need have we of the shadow? If we have the source of rest, what need have we of sabbaths?

Let’s say Romans 14 is talking about the Sabbath commandment….did Paul have the authority to change God’s law?

Did Jesus have the authority to fulfill His law? What does Matthew 5 say?

I KNOW that God wouldn’t give us one or two vague verses about wiping out something as important as His commandments, which we’re told to OBEY.

One or two verses? Have you even been listening? What do we do with Galatians 3-5, 2 Corinthians 3, Hebrews 8 and Romans 7?

There will be new moons and Sabbaths on the new earth as well.

Please cite Scriptural support for this claim. If your source is Isaiah 66, are you prepared to make the claim that there will be dead bodies in the new earth too?

BTW, if you believe there will be new moons in the new earth, why aren’t you advocating for them now?

The “shadow” was of letting man judge us.

Men do judge us based on shadows. SDA men say that the mark of the beast hinges on its observance. Scripture teaches that mark of the beast is about WHO a man worships, not WHEN he worships.

It’s the general message, BFA

.

This isn’t evidence. It’s merely more conjecture.

Why do we esteem one day above the other if God doesn’t? You won’t find scriptural evidence for Christmas, yet “Christians” in this world still believe it is the day of Christ’s birth.

And I certainly will not judge you if you elect not to celebrate Christmas. Will you extend the same courtesy to me if I choose not to observe the sign of the Jewish people, a sign that specifically given as a reminder of the exodus from Egypt?

I got nuthin.

Yes, I knew you had nuthin’. J

Colossians 2 says the body of Christ can judge

.

As a point of fact, Colossians 2 makes no such claim.

DJConklin pointed something out to me the other day that I found very interesting…..

As a point of fact, the word “Sabbath,” as a noun, exists nowhere in the book of Genesis. You might take that up with Mr. Conklin.

Did He ever call His holy seventh-day written on a stone an “ordinance”?

Did He refer to feasts as holy convocations set aside as sabbaths and days of rest that were to be considered as lasting ordinances? Exactly what does it take for you to acknowledge that all convocations were God-given and yet they aren’t eternal?

There were two covenants given at Sinai. Are you aware of that?

Again, we’re going to need some Scriptural confirmation, not just human conjecture. I assert that there was only one covenant given at Sinai, and it is found in the books of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Until you prove otherwise, we will assume that only one covenant was given at Sinai.

SURE IT DOES!!!! Jesus said that all laws concerning HIM had to be fulfilled.

On one hand you claim that nothing is fulfilled until heaven and earth pass away and then on the other hand you claim that some things can actually be fulfilled before heaven and earth pass away. Which is it?

Further, Matthew 5 confirms that not one jot or tittle can pass from the law until all is accomplished and yet you claim that this isn’t actually true and that one jot and one tittle really can pass from the law before all is accomplished. Are Jesus’ words trustworthy? You seem to believe his words in John 5 aren’t trustworthy. Have you now concluded that His words in Matthew 5 aren’t trustworthy? You need to select a consistent position. This approach of picking and choosing based on a human agenda is quite confusing.


BFA

 

[TrustAndObey]

One day more sacred than another versus every day alike. How could that not address the weekly Sabbath? Can you say you view every day alike or do you view one day more sacred than another?

GOD viewed one day more sacred than another Sciana, and He commanded us to cease from all work and keep it holy. Did Paul have the authority to change what day God called “His”?

Does Paul have the power and authority to change what God sanctified and hallowed during the very first week of creation?

It’s a legitimate question.

EVERY single day, in all that we do, we should glorify the Lord our God. Just because one day was set aside for us does not give us license to act like heathens the other six days.

And let me ask you this (another legitimate question)….if Romans 14 is saying that every day should be alike (which it doesn’t say…it says that SOME feel every day is alike), then why do you meet at your churches on Sunday? There is absolutely no commandment that says to gather on Sunday because of the resurrection, yet MOST Christians do that. Why?

We ALL esteem some days more than others….birthdays….anniversaries…but every day should be to the Lord. That is exactly what Paul said.

The Jewish Sabbath is still around now. Judiazers were part of the early church and Paul addressed that issue.

Sciana, can you find ONE verse that calls the seventh day the Jewish Sabbath? (I’ll help you out, no you cannot).

Ex 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

In Exodus 16 (before Mt. Sinai), did Moses “suggest” the people keep the seventh day holy? Were they given a chance to agree or promise or were they just commanded to do it?

Paul writes in Galatians 4 " 21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24*This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.*
25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
"REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say?
"*CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,*
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman."

We are to cast out the covenant from Sinai.

Okay, then what’s the New Covenant, in detail please?

This comes up a lot here and the answer is hardly ever the same, so I’m interested to hear what those of you trying to free us from error are freeing us INTO…..because you don’t agree with yourselves.

Also, can you tell me exactly when the New Covenant was set? The exact moment? Because the guests that come here and argue about the Sabbath argue amongst themselves about WHEN the New Covenant was set. Some say at the Lord’s last supper…some say at Pentecost….etc.

Do you know the Bible calls the 10 commandments the words of the covenant?

The Ten Commandments were a commanded covenant. What laws did God write on our hearts in the New Covenant, and please be specific? This is important since we’re told to obey the laws even in the New Covenant, so can you tell me exactly what those laws are?

Here are 2 texts that say - cast off the old covenant and calls the words of the 10 commandments the ministry of death that has come to have no glory and describes it as fading away. What about those verses is not clear to you?

Oh they’re very clear to me. There were two covenants given at Sinai. One was a commanded covenant and one was entered into (a promise). Which one of those covenants do you think we were supposed to cast off?

Huh? How do you get that from the verse?

"16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's."

Where does this suggest that the church is to judge? Isn't the church made up of people? People can't judge, but the church can? In order for the church to judge people have to judge.

Do you disagree that the body of Christ is His church? Remember, Colossians was written after Christ’s first coming, death, resurrection and ascension. SO what is the body of Christ? His literal human body? His glorified body now? What?

Look at verse 19….And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Christ is the Head of His church. No man can judge using his own judgment, the church must judge according to the Word of God.

If you study this issue you will find that even Adventist scholars disagree on where the term Sabbath came from in the different languages.

See here:

"In spite of extensive efforts of more than a century of study into extra-Israelite Sabbath origins, it is still shrouded in mystery. No hypothesis whether astrological, menological, sociological, etymological, or cultic commands the respect of a scholarly consensus. Each hypothesis or combination of hypotheses has insurmountable problems. The quest for the origin of the Sabbath outside of the Old Testament cannot be pronounced to have been successful. It is, therefore, not surprising that this quest has been pushed into the background of studies on the Sabbath in recent years."


(p. 849. Vol. 5. Gerhard F. Hasel. "Sabbath." David Noel Freedman. Editor. _The Anchor Bible Dictionary_. New York. Doubleday.1992)

That’s great and all, but it has nothing to do with the many different languages that have named their country’s seventh day “the Sabbath”. I’m guessing that the people that had their languages confused wayyyyyy back at the Tower of Babel probably weren’t available for comment.

We know there IS origin in it or the languages wouldn’t reflect it! How can you verify something with people that have been dead for thousands of years? I think this was very telling, actually.

The Passover is still around too.

Christ is our Passover.

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Oh, and the WAY we celebrate it changed too:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

SYMBOLICALLY!!!

What is your definition of "covenant"?

What is it with you people answering questions with questions? Ooops…I just did it too. LOL

I know what your definition is going to be so let me point this out….the covenant between God and the earth (about the rainbow)….that wasn’t a covenant the earth agreed to. In fact, it was between Him and every living creature on the earth….including those that COULDN’T promise because we weren’t even here yet.

God made several different types of covenants. Do you know what they are?

1. A two-sided covenant between human parties, both of whom voluntarily accept the terms of the agreement (1Sam. 18:3,4; Mal. 2:14; Obad. 7).
2. A one-sided disposition imposed by a superior party (Ezek. 17:13,14). In this, God "commands" a covenant which man, the servant, is to obey (Josh. 23:16).
3. God's self-imposed obligation, for the reconciliation of sinners to Himself (Deut. 7:6-8; Ps. 89:3,4).

I’m sure there’s more, but you get the idea…….

What is your view of inspiration? Do you believe God wrote the law of Moses through Moses? Was that subject to error? What we know of the 10 commandments is not from what was written on stone, but what was written by Moses so how do you know that is directly from God in the way God gave it?

Inspiration isn’t even an issue when God wrote the commandments on stone HIMSELF. That’s very clear in scripture.

LOL…are you questioning now if the Commandments on stone are in error because Moses might’ve misled us about what they said?

They’re in the Ark of the Covenant….if we were misled, then God will judge us by the light we HAD.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Sciana and BFA, just so you know...we're (Adventists) thinking about disallowing debate for a while until the other Adventists (the ones that don't agree with the teachings of our church) get their own forum established.

If that happens, BFA, I'd love to have a closed debate with you on this in GT. I think you can still request that.

However, I'd like to do it AFTER tomorrow night because I have a big speech to give. I'd really like to do it after a big test I have on April 18th, but there's no time limit on the debates and I could add bits and pieces until that date.

What do you say?

 

[sciana]

GOD viewed one day more sacred than another Sciana, and He commanded us to cease from all work and keep it holy. Did Paul have the authority to change what day God called “His”?

Does Paul have the power and authority to change what God sanctified and hallowed during the very first week of creation?

Again, it goes back to the question I asked you. What is your view of inspiration? Did Paul write on his own authority or was what he wrote inspired by God? God sanctified many days besides the 7th.

When Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death and that they were no longer glorious was he writing this on his own or was this inspired by God?

EVERY single day, in all that we do, we should glorify the Lord our God. Just because one day was set aside for us does not give us license to act like heathens the other six days.

And let me ask you this (another legitimate question)….if Romans 14 is saying that every day should be alike (which it doesn’t say…it says that SOME feel every day is alike), then why do you meet at your churches on Sunday? There is absolutely no commandment that says to gather on Sunday because of the resurrection, yet MOST Christians do that. Why?

People meet at their churches on various days of the week. Some churches are open every day of the week. Some Christians do feel that Sunday is more holy or that Saturday is more holy, but others view every day alike. Meeting for prayer meeting on a Wednesday doesn't make the day holy to you does it? Meeting on Saturday or Sunday doesn't either. There is no commandment to meet on Saturday or Sunday for the Christian, but it is good to meet together whether it is Saturday, Sunday, or Tuesday.

Sciana, can you find ONE verse that calls the seventh day the Jewish Sabbath? (I’ll help you out, no you cannot).

It is the Jewish Sabbath because it was given to Jews not Christians.
Exodus 31 "12And the LORD said to Moses, 13"You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you. 14You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. 16Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'""

In Exodus 16 (before Mt. Sinai), did Moses “suggest” the people keep the seventh day holy? Were they given a chance to agree or promise or were they just commanded to do it?

It was introduced to the Isrealites in Exodus. They had not yet been given the law. They broke the Sabbath there and were not punished by death.

Okay, then what’s the New Covenant, in detail please?

2 Corinthians 3 (quoted earlier) describes it very well.

This comes up a lot here and the answer is hardly ever the same, so I’m interested to hear what those of you trying to free us from error are freeing us INTO…..because you don’t agree with yourselves.

Freeing you from error? Are you trying to free me from error or are we having a discussion?

Also, can you tell me exactly when the New Covenant was set? The exact moment? Because the guests that come here and argue about the Sabbath argue amongst themselves about WHEN the New Covenant was set. Some say at the Lord’s last supper…some say at Pentecost….etc.

I've never heard anyone say the Lord's last supper. Why is it important to you if you don't believe there is a new covenant? Do you really think that everyone who disagrees with the idea that the old covenant is for Christians is going to agree on everything about the new covenant?

The Ten Commandments were a commanded covenant. What laws did God write on our hearts in the New Covenant, and please be specific? This is important since we’re told to obey the laws even in the New Covenant, so can you tell me exactly what those laws are?

The new covenant is filled with commands for Christians. Just read the epistles.

Oh they’re very clear to me. There were two covenants given at Sinai. One was a commanded covenant and one was entered into (a promise). Which one of those covenants do you think we were supposed to cast off?

Please show Biblically the two covenants from Sinai.

Do you disagree that the body of Christ is His church? Remember, Colossians was written after Christ’s first coming, death, resurrection and ascension. SO what is the body of Christ? His literal human body? His glorified body now? What?

Look at verse 19….And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Christ is the Head of His church. No man can judge using his own judgment, the church must judge according to the Word of God.

How does the church judge without a man judging? Where do you see the body of Christ judging in the Colossians text?

That’s great and all, but it has nothing to do with the many different languages that have named their country’s seventh day “the Sabbath”. I’m guessing that the people that had their languages confused wayyyyyy back at the Tower of Babel probably weren’t available for comment.

We know there IS origin in it or the languages wouldn’t reflect it! How can you verify something with people that have been dead for thousands of years? I think this was very telling, actually.

No, the problems that the SDA scholars found are not what you suggest. There is evidence of the "sabbath", but from Babylonian sources (like Epic of Gilgamesh) which presents a problem regarding the origin of the sabbath in different languages because the use of the word sabbath in Babylonian sources is not the same as in Genesis. I have a link I can send you and you can read all about it. Here is an excerpt to describe part of the problem at saying Sabbath originated at creation as evidenced by sabbath in various languages:

"[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Pinches noted that in Babylonia, the 7th day was a "Taboo Day," or "Lucky-Unlucky Day" :
[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"The nearest approach to the Sabbath, in the Jewish sense, among the Babylonians, is the [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]u-khulgala[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] or [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]umu limmu[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif], "the evil day," which, as we know from the Hemerologies, was the 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th, and 19th day of each month, the last so called because it was a week of weeks from the the 1st day of the foregoing month. It is this, therefore, which contains the germ of the idea of the Jewish Sabbath, but it was not that Sabbath in the true sense of the term, for if the months had 30 days, the week following the 28th had 9 days instead of 7, and weeks of 8 and 9 days therefore probably occurred twelve times each year. The nature of this original Sabbath is shown by the Hemerologies, which describe how it was to be kept in the following words:
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](The Duties of the 7th Day) :
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The 7th day is a fast of Merodach and Zer-panitum, a FORTUNATE DAY, an EVIL DAY. The Shepherd of the great peoples shall not eat flesh cooked by fire, salted (savory) food, he shall not change the dress of his body, he shall not put on white, he shall not make an offering. The king shall not ride in his chariot, he shall not talk as a ruler; a seer shall not do a thing in a secret place; a physician shall not lay his hand on a sick man; (the day) is unsuitable for making a wish. The king shall set his oblation in the night before Merodach and Ishtar, he shall make an offering, (and) his prayer is acceptable with god.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](p. 528, "The Sabbath," Theophilus G. Pinches, [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The Old Testament In the Light of the Historical Records and Legend of Assyria and Babylonia[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]. London, Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1908) "[/FONT]

Christ is our Passover.

Yes, Christ is our everything!

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Oh, and the WAY we celebrate it changed too:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

SYMBOLICALLY!!!

Hebrews 4 expresses the new way to keep the Sabbath. We enter into rest by faith, not by keeping a day holy.

I know what your definition is going to be so let me point this out….the covenant between God and the earth (about the rainbow)….that wasn’t a covenant the earth agreed to. In fact, it was between Him and every living creature on the earth….including those that COULDN’T promise because we weren’t even here yet.

God made several different types of covenants. Do you know what they are?

1. A two-sided covenant between human parties, both of whom voluntarily accept the terms of the agreement (1Sam. 18:3,4; Mal. 2:14; Obad. 7).
2. A one-sided disposition imposed by a superior party (Ezek. 17:13,14). In this, God "commands" a covenant which man, the servant, is to obey (Josh. 23:16).
3. God's self-imposed obligation, for the reconciliation of sinners to Himself (Deut. 7:6-8; Ps. 89:3,4).

I’m sure there’s more, but you get the idea…….

Interesting. Where is the evidence for 2 covenants on Sinai?

Inspiration isn’t even an issue when God wrote the commandments on stone HIMSELF. That’s very clear in scripture.

LOL…are you questioning now if the Commandments on stone are in error because Moses might’ve misled us about what they said?

I don't question what Paul or Moses or David says. I take the words on stone just as much as the words of Moses or Paul or David because they all came from God. You seem to place greater importance on the words on stone which is why I asked of your view of inspiration.

 

[oldsage]

Thanks for the referred posts. So you believe eating and drinking in Colossians 2 refers to food and drink, correct? I do as well - regulations regarding food and drink that is. You had said they were a shadow of things to come quoting Romans 14. Do you realize Romans 14 refers to the same things as Colossians 2?

I am just gonna type the skinny on this .
There is no parallel between Romans 14 and Colossians 2. The parallel would be with Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 and 10.
[FONT=&quot]ESV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 8:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ¶ However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ESV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Romans 14:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ¶ As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ESV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Romans 14:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ¶ Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.[/FONT]

This is clearly talking about food offered to idols. Many of the foods of that time which were bought at the market places came from the temples were they sacrificed the animals to some idol.
[FONT=&quot]ESV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 10:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26 For "the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof." 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience-- 29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

It would seem since these text are so close in their language and thrust we can be assured Romans 14 is speaking about food sacrificed to idols and there are some people who think you shouldn’t eat those foods and some who think it is ok to eat those foods.
The part which are speaking of days and holding them for the Lord is clearly speaking about fasting days because these are the days which were able to be moved based on one’s own conscious.

Simple text when understood in the context.

Blessings,
Chris

 

[tall73]

I didn't notice if anyone addressed my question regarding Isaiah, so here goes again...Do Adventists worship on the new moon? And if not, why not since it says one new moon to the next and one sabbath to the next.


23"And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

 

[ChrisCarol]

I know what your definition is going to be so let me point this out….the covenant between God and the earth (about the rainbow)….that wasn’t a covenant the earth agreed to. In fact, it was between Him and every living creature on the earth….including those that COULDN’T promise because we weren’t even here yet.

And the Everlasting Covenant in Christ thru His Blood is made with God alone also.

Hebrews 8

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
​

 

[Byfaithalone1]

GOD viewed one day more sacred than another Sciana,

There is no confirmation in Scripture that this is true. God had many holy convocations.

and He commanded us to cease from all work and keep it holy.

The weekly sabbath was not the only sabbath during which God commanded men to cease working.

Did Paul have the authority to change what day God called “His”?

Did Jesus have the authority to fulfill laws? Are Paul's writings the inspired word of God?

Does Paul have the power and authority to change what God sanctified and hallowed during the very first week of creation?

Does Jesus?

EVERY single day, in all that we do, we should glorify the Lord our God. Just because one day was set aside for us does not give us license to act like heathens the other six days.

We should also worship God every day of the week. Nowhere in Scripture does God command men to limit their worship to one day each week. A sincere study of worship reveals that it can and should be done every day of the week. David is a good example in this regard.

And let me ask you this (another legitimate question)….if Romans 14 is saying that every day should be alike (which it doesn’t say…it says that SOME feel every day is alike), then why do you meet at your churches on Sunday?

Hahaha! I attend a non-denom church. We have services on Saturdays and Sundays and I've attended both days. I don't attend on either day because I believe either day to bet the sabbath. Further, I attend worship services on Wednesday evenings as well. I do not do so because I believe that Wednesday is the sabbath.

Tell me--if an SDA worships God during a Wednesday night prayer meeting, is he in danger of one day receiving the mark of the beast? Or, if an SDA worships God during a Revelation Seminar held on Sunday, is he in danger of one day receiving the mark of the beast? Or, if an SDA worships God during a Friday afternoon meeting during camp meeting, is he in danger of one day receiving the mark of the beast? Do such SDAs believe that Wednesday, Friday or Sunday are the weekly sabbath of the old covenant?

There is absolutely no commandment that says to gather on Sunday because of the resurrection, yet MOST Christians do that. Why?

There is absolutely no commandment that says that we must sing songs from a hymnal. And yet most SDAs do that. Why?

We ALL esteem some days more than others….birthdays….anniversaries…but every day should be to the Lord.

Please cite biblical evidence that celebrations of birthdays and anniversaries existed in Paul's day.+

Sciana, can you find ONE verse that calls the seventh day the Jewish Sabbath? (I’ll help you out, no you cannot).

Please read Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy 5. It was given to Jews. Not their forefathers. Jews.

In Exodus 16 (before Mt. Sinai), did Moses “suggest” the people keep the seventh day holy? Were they given a chance to agree or promise or were they just commanded to do it?

Was there any evidence that any man kept it prior to Exodus 16 or that they already knew how to keep it?

Okay, then what’s the New Covenant, in detail please?

It is found in 2 Corinthians 3.

This comes up a lot here and the answer is hardly ever the same, so I’m interested to hear what those of you trying to free us from error are freeing us INTO…..because you don’t agree with yourselves.

An interesting comment from an SDA in a forum where there are progressives and traditionalists.

Also, can you tell me exactly when the New Covenant was set? The exact moment?

The New Covenant was set in motion. It did not have a precise commencement date. Scripture clearly refers to the old covenant as fading and becoming obsolete. This suggests a process and not one moment in time.

The Ten Commandments were a commanded covenant.

The ten commandments were but one part of the covenant. There were at least 613 laws in that covenant.

Oh they’re very clear to me. There were two covenants given at Sinai. One was a commanded covenant and one was entered into (a promise).

Scripture please!

Which one of those covenants do you think we were supposed to cast off?

Galatians 4 is clear. We are to cast off the covenant given at Sinai. Deuteronomy 5 clearly articulates the covenant given at Sinai. Your argument is against Scripture, not Sciana.

Look at verse 19….And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Where does Verse 19 offer the body of Christ the right to judge one another based on sabbaths?

Christ is our Passover.

And yet the passover was observed after the cross. Why? Because the old covenant faded. It didn't disappear overnight.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Sciana and BFA, just so you know...we're (Adventists) thinking about disallowing debate for a while until the other Adventists (the ones that don't agree with the teachings of our church) get their own forum established.

If they make the decision to turn us away, I'm sure they'll let us know. If I am told that I can no longer debate here, I will certainly comply with the rules and leave quietly. If such a change were to be made and if you wish to continue dialogue, it would need to take place in another public forum. I don't enter into debate to change anyone's mind, but rather to face my own blind spots and to encourage thought among lurkers. I've found that private debates quickly disintegrate into unkind words and are counterproductive.

BFA

 

[sciana]

I am just gonna type the skinny on this .
There is no parallel between Romans 14 and Colossians 2. The parallel would be with Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 and 10.

I agree there is a correlation with 1 Corinthians, but that doesn't prohibit a correlation with Colossians 2 as well.

Romans 14: "4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God."

Colossians 2 "16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."

Both talk about judging regarding what is eaten and about holy days.

This is clearly talking about food offered to idols. Many of the foods of that time which were bought at the market places came from the temples were they sacrificed the animals to some idol.

I agree that food offered to idols is likely addressed here. But that is not the only thing addressed. For instance (note the bolded text)

Romans 14 "13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats."

We are not to judge because nothing is unclean and the kingdom we are in is not about what we eat or drink. We are not to judge about what is eaten from the meat market, we are not to judge about unclean meats, we are not to judge about holy days. But we should act in discretion when around someone who would stumble over these things.

The part which are speaking of days and holding them for the Lord is clearly speaking about fasting days because these are the days which were able to be moved based on one’s own conscious.

How do you come to that conclusion based on the text? It doesn't talk about moving days, but observing days. Some observe days and some view all days alike. The weekly Sabbath, New Moons, etc weren't moved. Some just didn't observe them.

 

[VictorC]

It's not that I don't enjoy your company, but there's an entire thread on there talking about CF and the people here, and I don't see anyone from here going over there to defend CF the way you defend CARM.

Is there something I should conclude over your action, or rather, inaction? You appear to be very quick to pass judgment over the membership of another forum, all the while confessing that your views are akin to secondhand gossip.

I've had problems with this site for two days. They're working on it.

It has been much more than two days now, and it does appear that the site is behaving well enough that I can actually open a thread and view its contents. This is the first time since last week I have been able to.

The best way to go is to type up a response in a Word document and then copy/paste it in here in case it won't submit.

The problem with pasting from a word processor is that doing so imports the font characters. I do make a habit of copying to notepad or the clipboard when investing in a long post. But, thanks for your advice.

You can answer the questions about CARM, so how's about some of the other questions in this thread unrelated to CARM?

I would love to.
I just need to be able to read the other questions, and it appears someone has been busy during the time CF was down. If there is something you would like to address to me, feel free to provide a link to an individual post. I know how to use the navigations tools to return to the thread and anchor a reply where it should be.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

You know, you may be surprised to find some of those mean and terrible people over there on that site with our endless devotion to Jesus Christ, and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) are actually concerned for you.

But you won't know that as long as your trust is placed in gossip instead of seeing for yourself what is said there.

It was my concern that I might not be considered engaging in gossip that I posted what I had done to you.
I am not speaking behind your back.
I am not judging another servant bought with His Blood.
My integrity is intact.

Victor

catlover, I hope you will perceive that individual Christians on another forum aren't out to make derogatory comments about you.

 

[oldsage]

I agree there is a correlation with 1 Corinthians, but that doesn't prohibit a correlation with Colossians 2 as well.

Romans 14: "4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God."

Colossians 2 "16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."

Both talk about judging regarding what is eaten and about holy days.

No, I have to disagree. For one Roman 14 makes absolutely no mention of holy days. Those words are unique to Colossians 2. In Romans 14 the days are obviously days which are personal to the specific person not to commandments given by God. Think about this, you are in a religion who’s God for many centuries made a big deal about keeping certain days, those days are specifically mentioned. Then comes a letter from someone stating what we read in verses 5 through 6. How do you get from one esteeming a day over another, when they believe they are doing God’s will? This would seem more a personal day because Paul isn’t making that big a deal about it either way. The text never mentions any holy day or any day mentioned in any of God’s commandments. It is just speaking of days in general.
Colossians 2 in the first part of verse 16 is speaking about not letting someone or maybe group pass judgment on you by eating or drinking, meaning they were eating and drinking, or with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath. From the easy reading of the text it plainly shows they Colossians were already keeping those days and others were judging them in how they were doing it. Those doing the judging were clearly not “Judizers” because we read more about them in the following verses:
[FONT=&quot]
ESV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Colossians 2:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ESV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Colossians 2:21[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Clearly these judges are some sect dealing in asceticism and angel worship.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ESV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Colossians 2:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ¶ Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body of Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The last part is my translation the term “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]δ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ὲ [/FONT][FONT=&quot]σ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ῶ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]μα το[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ῦ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Χριστο[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ῦ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” is always translated “the body of Christ” But in this one instance most translation change it by wanting to insert a verb “is” or change the word “body” for “substance” I believe it is because they misunderstand the meaning of the passages because of a deep rooted bias. Because of the way the language works it is possible for the last clause of 17 to be related to the first clause of 16. So basically it is saying, “Don’t let the ascetics judge you in eating or drinking, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath, these are shadows of things to come but let the body of Christ judge.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is obvious Paul doesn’t believe in not judging anyone because this is what he does best in his letters. But we should not let those who are outside the church who don’t have our best interest at heart tell us what we should do. When we judge we are to make a righteous judgment(John 7:24)[/FONT]

I agree that food offered to idols is likely addressed here. But that is not the only thing addressed. For instance (note the bolded text)

Romans 14 "13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats."

We are not to judge because nothing is unclean and the kingdom we are in is not about what we eat or drink. We are not to judge about what is eaten from the meat market, we are not to judge about unclean meats, we are not to judge about holy days. But we should act in discretion when around someone who would stumble over these things.

Well, like I was saying the “unclean” foods are the foods which were sacrificed to idols. For instance, if they sacrificed a cow to Zeus the cow would be unclean food because it was sacrificed to an idol. Since we know this is speaking about the same subject as in 1 Corinthians 8 and 10 we would need to keep this text in that context and not try to have it mean more than the author’s intent.

How do you come to that conclusion based on the text? It doesn't talk about moving days, but observing days. Some observe days and some view all days alike. The weekly Sabbath, New Moons, etc weren't moved. Some just didn't observe them.

I come to this conclusion because of the time of the writing and the understanding the text isn’t speaking about holy days which God has given. This leave us with just one other type of day which was disputed at this time as can be read in the Didache

[FONT=&quot]Didache 8:1 [/FONT] [FONT=&quot] But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but do ye fast on the fourth day and the Preparation[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now God didn’t pick a day in which we are to fast, people were free to choose on their own, so be convinced in your own mind when to do it. But God’s holy days and such were set in time and God never said , “be convince in your own mind” about them.[/FONT]

Paul here is speaking generically about these days so he would not be talking about God’s holy days, else he would have mentioned them by name or category like he did in Colossians 2.

Blessings,
Chris
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[TrustAndObey]

Oldsage, I knew Romans 14 linked to 1 Corinthians but I didn't know what chapter!

The old bible I had linked Romans 14 to 1 Corinthians and then it cited some early Christian writings about pagan gods.

I knew I wasn't off my rocker! Thanks man.

 

[TrustAndObey]

If they make the decision to turn us away, I'm sure they'll let us know. If I am told that I can no longer debate here, I will certainly comply with the rules and leave quietly. If such a change were to be made and if you wish to continue dialogue, it would need to take place in another public forum. I don't enter into debate to change anyone's mind, but rather to face my own blind spots and to encourage thought among lurkers. I've found that private debates quickly disintegrate into unkind words and are counterproductive.

BFA

Closed debates here are still visible to everyone, but nobody can post but the two people that agreed to debate.

GT=General Theology. It's just another forum here on CF.

I'll try to look into how they (closed debates) work and if they are still doable here.

But for now...we're still allowing debate.

 

[TrustAndObey]

There is no confirmation in Scripture that this is true. God had many holy convocations.

You do realize you’re arguing with God and not with me, right? On the very first week of creation He blessed the seventh day (literally, the seventh DAY of the WORLD) and sanctified it.
He wrote it on stone, He called it “MY holy day” and He called it “the Sabbath of the Lord they God.” Do any other days fit that description?

• On stone (that’s the biggie there brother). NO other day is written on stone.
• Sanctified
• Blessed
• AND Hallowed

Show me another day like that and you’d have a point.

Do you know where the tables of stone are NOW? Heaven is eternal and everything in it is eternal as well.

Speaking of which….do you know where the BOOK of the law is and do you know what it will be used for? It’s not IN the ark, but in the side of the ark….and why? Why were they separated?

The weekly sabbath was not the only sabbath during which God commanded men to cease working.

True dat. But were any of the other ones called….oh I don’t know….ORDINANCES? Were they written on stone? Were there laws added BECAUSE OF transgression? Oh yeah, brother, there were.

I don’t think you ever answered my other question….can you tell me how the Feast of Tabernacles has been fulfilled?

Did Jesus have the authority to fulfill laws? Are Paul's writings the inspired word of God?

Let me answer you with Paul’s own words….1 Cr 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.


I do believe that Paul’s writings were inspired by God, yes. I also know that according to Isaiah, any prophet of God has to agree with the Word already written or there is no light in them.
Here’s a for instance….in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Abraham tells the Rich Man that he will not send Lazarus to warn his (the Rich Man’s) brothers about hell. Then Abraham says “they have Moses and the prophets” and he basically goes on to say “if they don’t believe THEM they won’t believe a dead person talking to them either!”

I’ve asked you this before and I don’t think you’ve ever answered this question either….what do you think Christ was reading when He’d go into the synagogue every Sabbath day? The New Testament hadn’t been written yet, so what was it that Christ was reading? How many times did HE say “is it not written”…..again, the New Testament wasn’t around yet. Was Christ endorsing something that is of no benefit to Christian believers, BFA?

Does Jesus?

All I can do is use His own words to answer that…..


John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

He even told us, BFA, that the things concerning Him in the Law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms had to be fulfilled and END. Did Christ end the commandment “thou shalt not commit adultery” or did He expound on it even more?

We should also worship God every day of the week. Nowhere in Scripture does God command men to limit their worship to one day each week. A sincere study of worship reveals that it can and should be done every day of the week. David is a good example in this regard.

AMEN!!! We totally agree on this! The Sabbath commandment isn’t about NOT loving and worshipping God the other six days a week though. It’s about resting and it’s a sign between Him and His people that we know He is the Lord thy God that created ALL.

Hahaha! I attend a non-denom church. We have services on Saturdays and Sundays and I've attended both days. I don't attend on either day because I believe either day to bet the sabbath. Further, I attend worship services on Wednesday evenings as well. I do not do so because I believe that Wednesday is the sabbath.

Tell me--if an SDA worships God during a Wednesday night prayer meeting, is he in danger of one day receiving the mark of the beast? Or, if an SDA worships God during a Revelation Seminar held on Sunday, is he in danger of one day receiving the mark of the beast? Or, if an SDA worships God during a Friday afternoon meeting during camp meeting, is he in danger of one day receiving the mark of the beast? Do such SDAs believe that Wednesday, Friday or Sunday are the weekly sabbath of the old covenant?

It’s not about a day of worship BFA…how many times do we have to say that? If a person claims any other day as God’s holy day other than the one GOD Himself said was His…it’s about disobeying His commandment to follow a tradition of man.

I’ll tell you what…if I’m wrong then I’ve “wasted” every Saturday for the last few years spending time with our God for 24 hours. But I know this….there is not ONE verse in the entire Bible that says Sunday is sanctified, blessed, or hallowed…..so what if YOU’RE wrong?

There is absolutely no commandment that says that we must sing songs from a hymnal. And yet most SDAs do that. Why?

We’re making a joyful noise unto the Lord in His sanctuary. Do you have a problem with that? We don’t always sing from a hymnal either, just so you know.

Please cite biblical evidence that celebrations of birthdays and anniversaries existed in Paul's day.+

LOL! You make this fun for me BFA. You actually just proved my point…but for the record, there were birthdays mentioned in scripture LONG before Paul was around. The only birthdays mentioned in Scripture that I saw were the birthdays of Pharaoh and Herod – and both connected with murder. HAHA! Do you want the verses?

Please read Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy 5. It was given to Jews. Not their forefathers. Jews.

So when God called the seventh day HIS holy day and the Sabbath of the Lord thy God….did He MEAN to say “the Sabbath of the Jews” and “the Jews holy day”?