An example of Creation Science

[crawfish]

Why not?

As a matter of the church/state separation thing, I say: ditch it. Let the Church prevail. (again, why shouldn't I say it?)

I say, let the Church prevail...in our hearts. I don't want to be legally subject to somebody else's interpretation of scripture. Or, to a different religion entirely.

Gluadys said it best - the separation protects the individual Christian as much as it does the nonbeliever. Otherwise, you might have Francis Collins convincing the President that religious pro-evolution education should be forced on your children at gunpoint.

 

[sfs]

I would take creationists a little more seriously if they applied this kind of approach uniformly, rather than to selected cool organisms. When have you heard a creationist wax lyrical about the wonderful design of Plasmodium falciparum, the many intricate steps in its life cycle, the way it cleverly hides from the immune system inside red blood cells? When have you heard praise for the scores of copies it has of genes that are exposed to the immune system, and the way it turns them on and off in sequence to prevent an immune response? Or the way it uses these sophisticated strategies to outwit all of the feeble efforts of doctors and scientists, and to continue to infect 500 million humans and kill 1 million children every year?

 

[juvenissun]

The underlying message behind that is "we can't know it, so don't bother trying". It also implies that it lessens God when the "how's" can be discovered and learned.

I tell my kids that EVERYTHING is attributable to God, and whenever we learn something it is simply learning His methods. I tell them that it is our responsibility to discover the nature of His creation so that we can use it in the way He intends.

I like what you said. And I am glad that you do not tell them that evolution is true even you do think so.

 

[juvenissun]

I would take creationists a little more seriously if they applied this kind of approach uniformly, rather than to selected cool organisms. When have you heard a creationist wax lyrical about the wonderful design of Plasmodium falciparum, the many intricate steps in its life cycle, the way it cleverly hides from the immune system inside red blood cells? When have you heard praise for the scores of copies it has of genes that are exposed to the immune system, and the way it turns them on and off in sequence to prevent an immune response? Or the way it uses these sophisticated strategies to outwit all of the feeble efforts of doctors and scientists, and to continue to infect 500 million humans and kill 1 million children every year?

Great knowledge. I do not understand even 1% on what you said. But it sounds awesome. I wish I could appreciate more on what you know. The stuff you study is what I admire the most.

 

[crawfish]

I like what you said. And I am glad that you do not tell them that evolution is true even you do think so.

I tell them that the evidence for evolution is very, very strong, and that if true, evolution is just God's method. Which is what I believe.

I put no faith in the truth or falseness of evolution. I put my trust in truth, whether it be God's word or God's creation. I do not put my trust in our fallible understanding of either.

 

[juvenissun]

I tell them that the evidence for evolution is very, very strong, and that if true, evolution is just God's method. Which is what I believe.

I put no faith in the truth or falseness of evolution. I put my trust in truth, whether it be God's word or God's creation. I do not put my trust in our fallible understanding of either.

I think your attitude is acceptable to me.

However, I go one step further: I don't "believe" evolution is true (as I said in another thread, the main reason is that I refuse to recognize that I evolved from ape) and I am seeking all possible chances to undermine that model. Unfortunately, God does not allow me to work in biological science. So I could not hit the evolution model right on the face.

 

[shernren]

No matter how small and seemingly unimportant to us, everything God made reflects His creativity and excellent workmanship. Even microscopic creatures are filled with devices and inventions that move us to marvel at the Creator's care for each life form He has made. As Scripture says, "How excellent are His works in all the Earth!"

Yes, that's right kids! Everything God made reflects His creativity and excellent workmanship! And God demonstrates His care for each life form He has made by arming the Haptoglossa with a miniature armor-piercing cannon followed by an infection tube so that it can ruthlessly hunt down rotifers which are then eaten alive from inside! Yes kids, this is the same God who cares for you and me!

For our next lesson we will learn about how our loving God and Father has designed ichneumon wasps! And for a bonus lesson: why lions don't eat tofu!

... it's precisely this kind of thinking that turned Darwin into an agnostic. Do Christians never learn?

 

[gluadys]

Yes, that's right kids! Everything God made reflects His creativity and excellent workmanship! And God demonstrates His care for each life form He has made by arming the Haptoglossa with a miniature armor-piercing cannon followed by an infection tube so that it can ruthlessly hunt down rotifers which are then eaten alive from inside! Yes kids, this is the same God who cares for you and me!

For our next lesson we will learn about how our loving God and Father has designed ichneumon wasps! And for a bonus lesson: why lions don't eat tofu!

... it's precisely this kind of thinking that turned Darwin into an agnostic. Do Christians never learn?

Not my words, shernren. That was the homily from Creation Moments that I was quoting.

 

[vossler]

So what does the term "separation of church and state" refer to?

Rather than editorialize and give you my interpretation, I'll let you come up with your own.


The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 in response to a letter from a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority, who had issue in their state of Connecticut, that the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature - as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply did not specifically address their concerns about problems with state establishment of religion - only of establishment on the national level. Referencing the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes (an excerpt of his response):

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."​

 

[Willtor]

Why not?

As a matter of the church/state separation thing, I say: ditch it. Let the Church prevail. (again, why shouldn't I say it?)

Ultimately, when the Church takes on the mandate of Government, it does so at the expense of its own mandate to the detriment of both. The tools of Government are very different from those given to the Church - and with good reason. Isn't there already enough corruption in the Church without people who would look to the cloth as an opportunity to advance in political power?

If the Church were to "prevail" it would truly be a dark period in Church history. Instead, let us encourage the Church to do right by God in its own mandate. The "worldly" measure of success is the appropriation and consolidation of power and wealth and authority (whether for good or evil purposes). This is not the metric by which the Church should measure.

If you're frustrated by what's taught in school, that's one thing. But don't let your frustration with evolution make you support something foolish. "Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath. Do not fret - it leads only to evil." (Ps. 37:8)

 

[juvenissun]

Ultimately, when the Church takes on the mandate of Government, it does so at the expense of its own mandate to the detriment of both. The tools of Government are very different from those given to the Church - and with good reason. Isn't there already enough corruption in the Church without people who would look to the cloth as an opportunity to advance in political power?

If the Church were to "prevail" it would truly be a dark period in Church history. Instead, let us encourage the Church to do right by God in its own mandate. The "worldly" measure of success is the appropriation and consolidation of power and wealth and authority (whether for good or evil purposes). This is not the metric by which the Church should measure.

If you're frustrated by what's taught in school, that's one thing. But don't let your frustration with evolution make you support something foolish. "Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath. Do not fret - it leads only to evil." (Ps. 37:8)

I know what you said. Thanks.

 

[Mick116]

I don't "believe" evolution is true (as I said in another thread, the main reason is that I refuse to recognize that I evolved from ape)

Why do you refuse to accept the possibility of our evolution from apes? What theological truths make it so impossible?

I am seeking all possible chances to undermine that model.

Why?

 

[juvenissun]

Why do you refuse to accept the possibility of our evolution from apes? What theological truths make it so impossible?

Why?

Here is why.

 

[Willtor]

Here is why.

We are a kind of ape. Sort of like we are a kind of mammal or more generally a kind of animal. The relation is that we share common ancestors with other kinds of apes, just as we share common ancestors (more distantly) with other kinds of mammals and (even more distantly) with other kinds of animals.

You ask why we're smarter than other apes(/mammals/animals/etc.). I don't know. Why did God make some creatures more intelligent than others? Who can say? At any rate, it isn't really a question of evolution as opposed to anything else. Clearly, everyone is dealing with the fact that we are different from other animals regardless of views on origins.

 

[Mallon]

Juvie, do you think humans are mammals? And vertebrates?

 

[juvenissun]

Juvie, do you think humans are mammals? And vertebrates?

Physically, yes.

 

[Mallon]

Physically, yes.

So, physically, do you agree that we are apes? If not, why not? What physically makes us mammals and vertebrates, but not apes?

 

[juvenissun]

We are a kind of ape. Sort of like we are a kind of mammal or more generally a kind of animal. The relation is that we share common ancestors with other kinds of apes, just as we share common ancestors (more distantly) with other kinds of mammals and (even more distantly) with other kinds of animals.

You ask why we're smarter than other apes(/mammals/animals/etc.). I don't know. Why did God make some creatures more intelligent than others? Who can say? At any rate, it isn't really a question of evolution as opposed to anything else. Clearly, everyone is dealing with the fact that we are different from other animals regardless of views on origins.

You are much smarter than ape, then why do you think you are a type of ape?

 

[Mallon]

You are much smarter than ape, then why do you think you are a type of ape?

Parrots are much smarter than most other birds. Are they not also birds themselves?
The answer is the same.

Certainly our intelligence sets us apart from the other apes, but do the many similarities that we share with them not warrant our being included among them? After all, we share many features with apes exclusive of all other life.

 

[Willtor]

You are much smarter than ape, then why do you think you are a type of ape?

You're thinking that an ape is a species. It isn't. It's a broader category that includes humans, chimps, gorillas, etc. Saying that we are smarter than apes is sort of like saying that we are smarter than mammals. It would be better to say that we are smarter than other apes - just as we are smarter than other mammals. "Ape" is a category just as "mammal" and "primate" are categories.

It would be more reasonable to ask why we are smarter than other apes.