FreeinChrist, could we have some clarification on something?

[TrustAndObey]

I would assert that the group of formers on CARM who have taken such a position are a small group. A number of formers have been quite vocal in opposing such a view. I, for one, do not believe that "to be Adventist is to be lost." With that said, I believe that the SDA version of the gospel does not fit with the gospel that I read about in Scripture, and so I have grave concerns about the denomination.

BFA

But do you see where "concern" can step over the line into bullying? You said it, we saw it, but we don't agree with you. That is our right, and we think you are wrong. That's why we come here. It's a forum for a church we willfully joined.

When do we get to say "okay, ENOUGH", we get it already?!

 

[tall73]

Tall, this is the Seventh-day Adventist forum. Do you ever go to your current church's forum to discuss the current doctrine that you now hold to be true with THEM?

I have not seen any posts made by you in a very long time where you are just merely looking for answers. You are trying to teach.

Here's an idea, quit tryng to make rules for a forum for Seventh-day Adventists. You have absolutely no right to do that, and you have overstepped the boundaries.

Seventh-day Adventists should be the only people helping to make the rules for this forum.

I do take issue with these "off-the-cuff" rules that appear to be retroactive and were made without any input. I do understand the rules but they need to be clarified and reworded, and other problems we have here need to be raised and addressed by moderation.

I didn't take this up with you, your name appears NOWHERE in my thread title. I'm going straight to the source so we can all find out what is going on.

I'm sorry if you have a problem with something Seventh-day Adventists see as a problem. It isn't up to you to decide what rules we have here.

Going straight to the source would involve a pm. You made a public thread in an area open to all.

 

[tall73]

But do you see where "concern" can step over the line into bullying? You said it, we saw it, but we don't agree with you. That is our right, and we think you are wrong. That's why we come here. It's a forum for a church we willfully joined.

When do we get to say "okay, ENOUGH", we get it already?!

You have every right to avoid the area where debate occurs.

It is not bullying to discuss on a forum. I did not come to your house, your church or even your private area on here to debate you. I debated right here where it is designed to happen. And I commented on things you put in public.

Perhaps you need a forum where no one can see what you say about people. You can create one if that better suits your needs.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Going straight to the source would involve a pm. You made a public thread in an area open to all.

I did PM her. But there are several people wondering the same thing I am about these new rules, and they want the answer just as much as I do.

Isn't it simpler just to post a thread to HER (not you) and address another problem we're having here so everybody can see the answer?

 

[tall73]

I did PM her. But there are several people wondering the same thing I am about these new rules, and they want the answer just as much as I do.

Isn't it simpler just to post a thread to HER (not you) and address another problem we're having here so everybody can see the answer?

The thread is in the debate area and open to all. It is not just open to her.

 

[TrustAndObey]

You have every right to avoid the area where debate occurs.

It is not bullying to discuss on a forum. I did not come to your house, your church or even your private area on here to debate you. I debated right here where it is designed to happen. And I commented on things you put in public.

Perhaps you need a forum where no one can see what you say about people. You can create one if that better suits your needs.

There isn't a "private" area, I agree, but there is one for Adventists like myself to talk about issues we have, without being badgered for it. Yet.....you went there and decided you did indeed need to badger me for it.

Why didn't you ask me about it in the Trad area? Oh yeah....because you would've been debating in a non-debate area!

You are overstepping boundaries. You knew about an FSG thread long before any of us Adventists did. I think we all know how you knew....but you also, for some reason, felt the need to give input on our rules when you had no right to do that.

I don't have a problem with you posting here Tall, but you want to do a whole lot more than that.

~elsewhere~

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Tall, this is the Seventh-day Adventist forum. Do you ever go to your current church's forum to discuss the current doctrine that you now hold to be true with THEM?

The discussion/debate forum specifically says and I think says since we created the rules earlier something similar to the current Forum specific Guidelines which say:

The Debate/Discussion subforum allows debate by both members and non-members.

When T&O you begin with a faulty assumption you begin with a faulty argument. You may not like it but discussion and debate is open to others Yea, even others outside your prescribed expectations.

 

[TrustAndObey]

The discussion/debate forum specifically says and I think says since we created the rules earlier something similar to the current Forum specific Guidelines which say:

The Debate/Discussion subforum allows debate by both members and non-members.

When T&O you begin with a faulty assumption you begin with a faulty argument. You may not like it but discussion and debate is open to others Yea, even others outside your prescribed expectations.

I'm okay with debate RC. I helped vote IN the D/D section and am well aware that it's for non-Adventists as well.

But I do have a problem with people taking my posts or other people's posts from a NON-debate area and trying to make them into a debate.

I am NOT the only one that feels this way. I don't think either side should do it, and apparently the mods feel the same way, but they aren't addressing the WHOLE problem.

 

[happywiththelord]

I am curious why a staff member has not commented yet on this.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I don't know Happy, but I did PM her with the link to this thread. She may have a job, unlike everybody else here. LOL!

 

[TrustAndObey]

This thread has gotten off-topic quite a bit.

We need to focus on why I started it in the first place, and we really can't do that until FreeinChrist comes here.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I'm okay with debate RC. I helped vote IN the D/D section and am well aware that it's for non-Adventists as well.

But I do have a problem with people taking my posts or other people's posts from a NON-debate area and trying to make them into a debate.

I am NOT the only one that feels this way. I don't think either side should do it, and apparently the mods feel the same way, but they aren't addressing the WHOLE problem.

They are bringing up a subject that they feel should be exposed and that they want to talk about. You are not forced to debate with them so it should be of no concern to you. Too many times people say things and then get offended because others disagree. If you have no problem with debate then you should have no problem with people giving examples when they present something in a debate subforum. Yes there may be other people that feel like you do on the subject. That does not make their wishes the law of the cyber land. If you are afraid to say something because others may use it to make their point then take the time to think about what you are saying or don't say it. Your idea of restricting freedom of speech to protect yourself is not a helpful view.

 

[VictorC]

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Hi, I would've just PM'd you with this question, but I am sure that a lot of people here are probably wondering the same thing I am, so I thought it'd be better if we got some clarification in the open forum. I'll PM you this link so you're aware of the thread and you can hopefully help us out.

I agree that comments/threads about the Progressives in the Traditional area (and vice versa) could be considered baiting, so I think we're all glad that is going to be stopped.

But what about people taking comments that are very generic out of a non-debate area to address the OP in the Debate section? Is that baiting and/or flaming as well?

For instance, I started a thread about some former Adventists (not Progressives) that harass us, and I started it in the Traditional non-debate section. Someone pulled my posts out of there and started a whole thread directed at me personally in the Debate section. I feel that it was baiting/flaming.

I realize there isn't a direct rule about this, but there wasn't a direct rule about comments in the non-debate areas either, and obviously now there is. I see both of these scenarios as a problem and I'm hoping we can get some relief from it.

Can you help us out?

It would have been helpful if you had linked where the alleged infraction occured, but even without it I might offer a comment or two.

What you write in another section of the forum is likely representative of your thought patterns, as well as others with a similar persuasion. Thus lifting those thoughts you wrote to provide a platform for discussion in the area where discussion is permitted was at least the proper thing to do. I don't know the moderator's opinion of issuing permission to do that, but bear in mind that quoting anything you write is permissable anyway.

My own opinion is that this isn't really a legitimate grounds for complaint or infraction. CF's rules are rather similar to CARM's, and the practice you're describing is common there. Naturally a moderator can offer his/her own statement to alter this - but it has been my experience that site moderators are an overloaded creature and we can police ourselves better than someone who needs to get a breather once in a while anyway.

Consider Matthew 15:18
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Did you approach the person who posted, and request him/her to delete a post you thought was offensive?
This should be a first step to take.

Again, I just hopped in here, so I don't know the specifics.

Victor

 

[TrustAndObey]

They are bringing up a subject that they feel should be exposed and that they want to talk about. You are not forced to debate with them so it should be of no concern to you. Too many times people say things and then get offended because others disagree. If you have no problem with debate then you should have no problem with people giving examples when they present something in a debate subforum. Yes there may be other people that feel like you do on the subject. That does not make their wishes the law of the cyber land. If you are afraid to say something because others may use it to make their point then take the time to think about what you are saying or don't say it. Your idea of restricting freedom of speech to protect yourself is not a helpful view.

No, they are not bringing up a SUBJECT of something they want to discuss, RC. They are pulling our threads out of our area and addressing the PERSON that made the comments.

If Tall wanted to discuss the issue of former Adventists trying to get people out of the church in the debate area, fine and dandy. That isn't what he did though. He acted like I started a thread to bash CARM and that wasn't the case at all. I stated very plainly that there are several sites where people try to bully Adventists out of the church.

Rules are being made that address specific problems the mods see in this forum...I'm just making them aware of another one.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Victor, it isn't just Tall or FreeIndeed....it's happening more and more. I'm addressing the whole idea of doing it, not the people doing it.

But yes, at least one person did express how they didn't feel the practice of doing this was right, and it didn't matter to the person doing it.

If the mods are going to make rules for us, as was done yesterday, they should address all the concerns and not just the ones they're seeing.

 

[honorthesabbath]

If I recall correctly, in the legal filed, no law is retroactive. Even the bible tells us 'where there is no law, there is no transgression.

So how is it that ppl are being penalized in the absence of any such rule?

 

[VictorC]

Victor, it isn't just Tall or FreeIndeed....it's happening more and more. I'm addressing the whole idea of doing it, not the people doing it.

But yes, at least one person did express how they didn't feel the practice of doing this was right, and it didn't matter to the person doing it.

If the mods are going to make rules for us, as was done yesterday, they should address all the concerns and not just the ones they're seeing.

Moderators operate in a realm where their decisions can't be governed by how someone "feels". If we were all Christians and didn't need babysitters, we wouldn't need moderators at all in light of 1 Timothy 1:9.

But it isn't a perfect world, we all have sin we need to be delivered from (Romans 7:24-25), and so we need to have consistent rules to overcome the variety of feelings represented on any forum.

You wrote something earlier I thought I should dismiss, but I think it prudent to bring it back on the stove for your consideration:

If Tall wanted to discuss the issue of former Adventists trying to get people out of the church in the debate area, fine and dandy. That isn't what he did though. He acted like I started a thread to bash CARM and that wasn't the case at all. I stated very plainly that there are several sites where people try to bully Adventists out of the church.

We heard about some of the comments being made here on CARM. That's why I came for a visit.
Perhaps you're not happy because of the impression that someone was speaking behind your back and saying bad things that weren't true.

You would want full exposure of those rumours, wouldn't you?

Likewise, some of us would like to see exposure of the comments calling our labours unredeemable garbage and similar things that aren't very nice.

Justice isn't necessarily fair, but fairness does have some merit. If you really wanted to be fair, you would have told me I'm unredeemable trash on CARM, where I have made most of my posts.

FYI, both Tall73 and FreeIndeed are regulars on CARM, and I don't think I have ever seen an infraction against either of them. Even I am not that clean, having received one warning in 5000 posts I have written.

Victor

 

[tall73]

There isn't a "private" area, I agree, but there is one for Adventists like myself to talk about issues we have, without being badgered for it. Yet.....you went there and decided you did indeed need to badger me for it.

Why didn't you ask me about it in the Trad area? Oh yeah....because you would've been debating in a non-debate area!

You are overstepping boundaries. You knew about an FSG thread long before any of us Adventists did. I think we all know how you knew....but you also, for some reason, felt the need to give input on our rules when you had no right to do that.

I don't have a problem with you posting here Tall, but you want to do a whole lot more than that.

~elsewhere~

A. Demonstrate that I posted in that thread long before you knew. I posted in it when I linked to it in a public forum right here in the Adventist section.

B. They appreciated my input

C. You are protected from debate IN your area, not out. But the things you say are public and ideas can be debated in the appropriate areas.

 

[tall73]

I'm okay with debate RC. I helped vote IN the D/D section and am well aware that it's for non-Adventists as well.

But I do have a problem with people taking my posts or other people's posts from a NON-debate area and trying to make them into a debate.

I am NOT the only one that feels this way. I don't think either side should do it, and apparently the mods feel the same way, but they aren't addressing the WHOLE problem.

Actually the mods likely just don't like the fighting all the way around and all the reports that comes of it. But you can't legislate fundamental differences in opinion out of existence.

Now not only do you claim to not like taking debate from one area to another but you claim to not like "bullying" which you appear to define as any debate that goes on for long where people outright disagree with Adventist positions. Debate inherently involves differing positions.

 

[tall73]

This thread has gotten off-topic quite a bit.

We need to focus on why I started it in the first place, and we really can't do that until FreeinChrist comes here.

It is not off-topic to challenge you in the debate area on the merits of your proposal.