The Book of The Dead

[busterdog]

The Book of the Dead' is the common name for the ancient Egyptian funerary text known as 'The Book of Coming '[or 'Going']' Forth By Day'. The book of the dead was a description of the ancient Egyptian conception of the afterlife and a collection of hymns, spells, and instructions to allow the deceased to pass through obstacles in the afterlife. The book of the dead was most commonly written on a papyrus scroll and placed in the coffin or burial chamber of the deceased.

* * *

Saite recension

Early versions of the book of the dead were not standardized and were not organized by thematic content; however, this changed by the Saite period :

• Chapters 1-16 The deceased enters the tomb, descends to the underworld, and the body regains its powers of movement and speech.
• Chapters 17-63 Explanation of the mythic origin of the gods and places, the deceased are made to live again so that they may arise, reborn, with the morning sun.
• Chapters 64-129 The deceased travels across the sky in the sun bark as one of the blessed dead. In the evening, the deceased travels to the underworld to appear before Osiris.
• Chapters 130-189 Having been vindicated, the deceased assumes power in the universe as one of the gods. This section also includes assorted chapters on protective amulets, provision of food, and important places. There are 192 unique chapters known, and no single papyrus contains all known chapters. Sometimes the verses are divided into Spell numbers as opposed to Chapter numbers. This depends on the translation that you read.

Why is it that none of this made it into the Old Testament? Are the myths of the Bible of common origin? :o

 

[Tinker Grey]

Maybe the Jews were never captive in Egypt.

 

[busterdog]

Maybe the Jews were never captive in Egypt.

Touche.

 

[lemmings]

Maybe the Jews were never captive in Egypt.

You mean modern archeology might actually be right?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Jes mebbe

 

[busterdog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinker Grey
Maybe the Jews were never captive in Egypt.

You mean modern archeology might actually be right?

In a million, trillion, gazillion years, you will not only never be able to prove this fantasy, and you will never be right either.

Israel was not captive in Babylon before the Torah was written, yet supposedly they borrowed from Gilgamesh.

 

[Assyrian]

You're not into that stuff about Abraham coming from Ur then?

 

[Tinker Grey]

I would be interested in what evidence there is that the Torah was written before Babylon.

ETA: AFAIK, there aren't even any Biblical texts older than about 250 B.C.

 

[busterdog]

You're not into that stuff about Abraham coming from Ur then?

Oh knock it off.

Jesus was in Egypt. So what.

The most absurd word in the English language is "connection." People use it to prove causation and identity when they should be saying "moooooo." You are too smart to go there.

The notion that there was a common mythic basis from which Genesis originated is the obvious point. But lots of myth didn't get into the Bible. The problem is with casual associations being taken as proof.

 

[busterdog]

I would be interested in what evidence there is that the Torah was written before Babylon.

ETA: AFAIK, there aren't even any Biblical texts older than about 250 B.C.

If all academic bets are off prior to 250 BC, then that is fine with me. That is better than modern scholars assuming they can prove anything at all about the origin of the Bible. Instead we have enormous leaps of modern critical reason about what did happen well before 250 BC.

 

[Assyrian]

Oh knock it off.

Jesus was in Egypt. So what.

The most absurd word in the English language is "connection." People use it to prove causation and identity when they should be saying "moooooo." You are too smart to go there.

The notion that there was a common mythic basis from which Genesis originated is the obvious point. But lots of myth didn't get into the Bible. The problem is with casual associations being taken as proof.

You just need to up up with better arguments against the connection. Of course my client did not mug Mrs Smith and steal her book, Mrs Jones has books and she wasn't mugged. As you say yourself, so what? Your argument that they didn't have the opportunity to pick up and Babylonian stories is just as badly thought out.

Shouldn't you be arguing that both the Noah account and epic of Gilgamesh are so similar because they come from the same source, the flood?

 

[Tinker Grey]

If all academic bets are off prior to 250 BC, then that is fine with me. That is better than modern scholars assuming they can prove anything at all about the origin of the Bible. Instead we have enormous leaps of modern critical reason about what did happen well before 250 BC.

Then what is the evidence that anything in the Hebrew Bible was written prior to the Babylonian captivity>

 

[shernren]

The notion that there was a common mythic basis from which Genesis originated is the obvious point. But lots of myth didn't get into the Bible. The problem is with casual associations being taken as proof.

Just because I don't speak in sonnets doesn't mean I don't know who Shakespeare is or have never been influenced by his works.

Really, busterdog. Do you call yourself a lawyer?

 

[busterdog]

Then what is the evidence that anything in the Hebrew Bible was written prior to the Babylonian captivity>

How is academic speculation better than the text itself? The text says it is much older than the captivity.

Septuagint was 3d century. Was that created out of whole cloth within a few years?

 

[busterdog]

You just need to up up with better arguments against the connection. Of course my client did not mug Mrs Smith and steal her book, Mrs Jones has books and she wasn't mugged. As you say yourself, so what? Your argument that they didn't have the opportunity to pick up and Babylonian stories is just as badly thought out.

Shouldn't you be arguing that both the Noah account and epic of Gilgamesh are so similar because they come from the same source, the flood?

Not at all.

The commonality of mesopotamian culture is the (bad) theory. It has to be because there isn't other proof. So, where is the Book of the Dead in the OT, or the NT for that matter?

 

[shernren]

So, because an Egyptian myth isn't in the Bible, the Bible couldn't possibly have had Mesopotamian influences. You are a genius, sir.

 

[artybloke]

Israel was not captive in Babylon before the Torah was written, yet supposedly they borrowed from Gilgamesh.

The Torah wasn't fully compiled until the Babylonian captivity. Some of it may have originated earlier.

Septuagint was 3d century. Was that created out of whole cloth within a few years?

I always thought it was 2nd century... and it seemed to include a few more books than the ones in the Protestant Bible too... some of which couldn't have been written before the 2nd century (Maccabees for starters...)

 

[Tinker Grey]

How is academic speculation better than the text itself? The text says it is much older than the captivity.

Septuagint was 3d century. Was that created out of whole cloth within a few years?

Where does the text say that?

 

[busterdog]

So, because an Egyptian myth isn't in the Bible, the Bible couldn't possibly have had Mesopotamian influences. You are a genius, sir.

Only by comparison.

More wilful misreading of what I write.

We are not talking about "couldn't possibly", we are talking to a virtual certainty because folks like you confuse speculation with proof of the origins of scripture. Get your terms straight. And we are not talking about "influences", we are really talking about borrowing fiction from other cultures.

How about this, if we all concede that there is at least decent chance that God wrote all or most of the Torah at Mt. Sinai, then we can put the modern critical dogmas in proper perspective. And maybe I am just wrong about the jealous nature of modern critical dogma, but I don't think so.

And by the way, "compile" is a dodgy word, if not a deliberate attempt to avoid commitment. It means anything you want.

 

[busterdog]

Where does the text say that?

Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites:
Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
Deu 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which [is] not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
Deu 29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
Jos 8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up [any] iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Jos 8:34 And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
Jos 23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom [to] the right hand or [to] the left;
Jos 24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that [was] by the sanctuary of the LORD.
2Ki 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
2Ki 22:8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
2Ki 22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.
2Ki 23:24 Moreover the [workers with] familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.
2Ch 17:9 And they taught in Judah, and [had] the book of the law of the LORD with them, and went about throughout all the cities of Judah, and taught the people.
2Ch 25:4 But he slew not their children, but [did] as [it is] written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.
2Ch 34:14 And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD [given] by Moses.
2Ch 34:15 And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan.
Neh 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that [was] before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.
Neh 8:3 And he read therein before the street that [was] before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people [were attentive] unto the book of the law.
Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.
Neh 8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day [was] a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.
Neh 9:3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the LORD their God [one] fourth part of the day; and [another] fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the LORD their God.

For starters.

And then, the thing on Mount Sinai is the premise for the Torah.