God <<staff edit>> America!

[spinningtutu]

Thank you for helping to clear that up. As a UCC seminarian, I know many people with connections to Trinity UCC, as well as people who are friends with Rev Wright and even Obama. So, the story I here from the "friends of friends" is a lot more reassuring.

 

[spinningtutu]

I'm all for women and Black presidents... I just really do NOT want it to be Hillary Clinton

 

[intrepid]

I was born in 1945, raised in Dallas. Schools were segregated, so I really never knew anyone of color. When I was about 15 I was at a lunch counter in downtown Dallas with two friends. Three black girls, about our age, sat down and were asked to leave. Winessing that was like a knife in my heart. At age 19 I read Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin, another eye-opener for me. During the 1960s the nation was wracked by racial strife; I spent some of that decade overseas, but the images I saw are imprinted in my data base.

I have spent my adult life treating everyone I meet in the same manner. Now, I read posts on this thread about how racist our country is and that some of you agree with Wright. Posts by some who weren't even alive in the 1960s...oh, well. I'll keep doing the best I can.

Peace and love.

 

[catlover]

I'm all for women and Black presidents... I just really do NOT want it to be Hillary Clinton

Anything is better than this idiot we have in office now...the man has ruined this country. I have met people who voted for him for the most idiotic reasons.

One lady stated she voted for the half whit because she "didn't want gays to adopt."

 

[catlover]

I was born in 1945, raised in Dallas. Schools were segregated, so I really never know anyone of color. When I was about 15 I was at a lunch counter in downtown Dallas with two friends. Three black girls, about our age, sat down and were asked to leave. Winessing that was like a knife in my heart. At age 19 I read Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin, another eye-opener for me. During the 1960s the nation was wracked by racial strife; I spent some of that decade overseas, but the images I saw are imprinted in my data base.

I have spent my adult life treating everyone I meet in the same manner. Now, I read posts on this thread about how racist our country is and that some of you agree with Wright. Posts by some who weren't even alive in the 1960s...oh, well. I'll keep doing the best I can.

Peace and love.

Institutional racism is still racism. Why are most medical studies done on white males-? Why are their more billboards in inner cities that advertise cigarrettes than in say a suburban area, why are African Americans more likely to die from lung cancer when they smoke less than whites? You say this society is less racist?

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

You know when someone coughs, and hides a certain word? That's the word I'm thinking of right now.

Jeremiah Wright does not belong in the same category as Louis Farrakhan. I know--I've been there, I know one of its associate ministers, his wife who ministers at one of their daughter churches, and a staffer who attended the church where I was trained as a minister.

In the first place, I promise you that I got a friendlier reception as the only white guy in the building than he would as the only black guy in your church. Yes, I mean your church--your liberal, open-minded church with no black people in it (or, even worse, a couple of well-dressed black people who can assuage your guilt without challenging your assumptions). I won't insist that you call him a prophet, but he's not at all the way he has been portrayed in the media over the last week, and his church doesn't stand for the principles that it's been stereotyped to hold.

I think it's funny that the same people who were sending out "Obama is a Muslim" emails two months ago are now wailing about his pastor. It looks to me like they're cutting back on the outrageousness of their smears until they find one that's small enough to fly, but big enough to hurt.

Alan

My church has many black people in it, and other minorities too. I'm one of the minorities myself, so multiracial I have no clue what race to call myself besides "human". Seattle is a pretty racially mixed and cosmopolitan city. My church (Assemblies of God) is not liberal, but it is loving and inclusive. We have no guilt: it's all covered by the blood of Christ. But thanks for the nasty and offensive stereotyping.

I hope you're right that Wright and his church are much better than those widely publicized clips show him out to be. All I've personally seen have been those clips, and in them he looks no better than Farrakhan. Obama himself has denounced Wright's more notorious comments. Does Wright have more and better things to say? I'm glad you think so and I sure hope so. But thanks to this controversy, I've been researching Black Liberation Theology, and I must say I'm very negatively impressed by it, just as I am by plain Liberation Theology.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

it's about time we had a black candidate or woman candidate...it took until the year 2008 that is pretty sad.
The amount of time it took to have viable candidates NOT from the dominant culture white males shows how racist this society is.

I agree that it's time and past time that we had a black candidate and a woman candidate, though I really, really wish they weren't liberal Democrats, a philosophy that I consider misguided at best. I'm not so certain of the reasons we haven't had viable black or female presidential candidates before... I think it's rather more complex than just racism, though I'll agree that's been a factor. But don't you think it's great that we've gotten over it to the point where we have such candidates?

If you want to excuse American citizens dehydrating to death and dying of heat exhaustion and absolve our federal leader of his responsibility fine. it stinks from the fishes head DOWN-the fact that we can more sucessfully blow up people rather than save them from a natural disaster says volumes.
AND RACE played a role in the inaction with those people, we still have cruel people who blame the victims of Katrina.

Would that have happened in Greenwich CT. Hell no. The reason? It's easy white rich people.

I'm not absolving anybody. There was tremendous incompetence displayed at the federal, state and local levels. There would've been less incompetence at the state and local levels in CT because LA has long been known for corrupt and incompetent politics -- and that's not a racial thing: most of those corrupt and incompetent LA politicians have been white.

The dominant white male culture obvisouly wants everyone to measure themselves against that stick-the white European culture. Where women are devalued, and those who deviate from teh european culture are somehow "bad". As for Bill Cosby he has an opinion I have mine. This is a sick society which fools itself into believing it's "just". It's not.

There we totally disagree, and we aren't going to be able to resolve it, because it's at the level of how we model reality in our minds, in other words basic premises and ideology.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I'm all for women and Black presidents... I just really do NOT want it to be Hillary Clinton

On this much we are in whole-hearted agreement.

Btw, there is a decent chance I will vote for Obama in the general election. Though I do prefer McCain on the issues, I like Obama much better for his personal and leadership qualities. Sometimes those are more important than issues. This may be once of those times. I am still undecided.

 

[spinningtutu]

Anything is better than this idiot we have in office now...the man has ruined this country. I have met people who voted for him for the most idiotic reasons.

One lady stated she voted for the half whit because she "didn't want gays to adopt."

You're prolly gonna tell me I'm crazy... but...

from my research into the past administrations... I've concluded that there is a bizarre freaked up Bush/Clinton alliance set on ruining this country for their own good. I swear they are single-handed rotating the two-party system off its axis, playing "good cop/ bad cop" to the other's "side".

This could be why Ann Coulter officially endorses Hillary Clinton at this point

From Bush Sr to the Hill/Bill Clintons to Bush Jr, it's been nothing but a series of lies, screwy management and pornographic violence.

So, I won't just say "anybody but Bush" I will say that either McCain or Obama will take our country in a different direction than this ridiculous Bush/Clinton cycle.

 

[spinningtutu]

Institutional racism is still racism. Why are most medical studies done on white males-? Why are their more billboards in inner cities that advertise cigarrettes than in say a suburban area, why are African Americans more likely to die from lung cancer when they smoke less than whites? You say this society is less racist?

Yes, society is still VERY RACIST from a structural angle... but, the sad part?

The Church is still the most racist component of our society

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

You're prolly gonna tell me I'm crazy... but...

from my research into the past administrations... I've concluded that there is a bizarre freaked up Bush/Clinton alliance set on ruining this country for their own good. I swear they are single-handed rotating the two-party system off its axis, playing "good cop/ bad cop" to the other's "side".

This could be why Ann Coulter officially endorses Hillary Clinton at this point

From Bush Sr to the Hill/Bill Clintons to Bush Jr, it's been nothing but a series of lies, screwy management and pornographic violence.

So, I won't just say "anybody but Bush" I will say that either McCain or Obama will take our country in a different direction than this ridiculous Bush/Clinton cycle.

I think that's a pretty good insight. The Bush/Clinton cycle needs to end. No more of either for at least a generation! Maybe Chelsea Clinton or George P. Bush, but not before that.

 

[spinningtutu]

Izdaari:

For all our disagreements, I'm kinda torn between McCain and Obama myself. I go through all the issues I think are important, where I stand on them, and keep trying to make one of them come out ahead... I lean towards Obama mainly because he's more outspoken on his faith, which has been verified for me by many others in the UCC. But whichever way it ends up, I have a lot of respect for both of them, and I'm appalled by things that have been said about both of them.

Unfortunately, it looks at though our disagreements get worse considering Liberation Theology... Not to offend you, but I'm 120% Liberation Theology, I think it IS the gospel message. I agree with those who say that Liberationism will be the next "main" category of Christianity (Catholic-Protestant-Liberationist). And I'm in the 3rd category. There are, of course, some very liberal Christians in this camp regarding theology, there are also some very conservative types. For me, affirming the conservative doctrines (virgin birth, resurrection, etc) make the Liberationist viewpoint stronger.

(sorrie)

 

[spinningtutu]

The Bushes and the Clintons belong in jail, not in the White House.

I'm serious, there is a LOT of crazy stuff that has been documented on both of them.
Like Rev Wright said, Bill screwed this country the same way he screwed Monica.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Unfortunately, it looks at though our disagreements get worse considering Liberation Theology... Not to offend you, but I'm 120% Liberation Theology, I think it IS the gospel message. I agree with those who say that Liberationism will be the next "main" category of Christianity (Catholic-Protestant-Liberationist). And I'm in the 3rd category. There are, of course, some very liberal Christians in this camp regarding theology, there are also some very conservative types. For me, affirming the conservative doctrines (virgin birth, resurrection, etc) make the Liberationist viewpoint stronger.

(sorrie)

Right, we aren't going to agree on that. I see Liberation Theology as well-intentioned, but fatally flawed by its roots in Marxist and socialist ideology. I see that view of how the world works, how capitalism works, and how human beings work, as being completely at odds with with how they really work. I agree with the idea that Jesus wants us to help the poor. But I disagree with the notion that more socialism will be good for them, or good for anybody at all but for power-seeking government officials and their allies.

 

[spinningtutu]

If you ask me, Liberation Theology has its roots in the communism of LOVE practised in the book of Acts, the only true communism which has ever been tried. Marxism and Socialism represent secular abuses of a way-of-living mandated by God in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But ok, I won't keep on... I know we disagree, and that's how life goes...

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

If you ask me, Liberation Theology has its roots in the communism of LOVE practised in the book of Acts, the only true communism which has ever been tried. Marxism and Socialism represent secular abuses of a way-of-living mandated by God in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But ok, I won't keep on... I know we disagree, and that's how life goes...

I have no objection to the early church form of voluntary communism between consenting believers. I might even be willing to live in such a community. But that's in sharp contrast with state socialism, which is anything but voluntary.

Maybe we have at least a little bit of agreement here.

 

[Teshi]

Eh. I live in the most segregated city in the US. I hear statements far more outrageous than Rev. White's constantly. People are angry.

We need leadership that neither glosses over that anger nor exploits it. The current political and economic system in the US has the lower class acting like lobsters in a bucket.

So I don't have a problem with Obama knowing this issue up close and personal. On the contrary. You have to understand what you're working with before you can do anything about it.

 

[spinningtutu]

Izdaari,

I've never believed that such things should be forced upon people. I have no problem admitting that the structures of power in such places like China are evil.

This is the fundamental distinction between what Clinton and Obama believe regarding universal health care. They say the same words, they mean different things. Clinton would mandate it for all, Obama would offer it to all. Very different.

God gives us free will and honors our choices. Jesus wanted to gather all of Jerusalem under hir wings but never made anyone do anything.

But the choices exist before all of us, and they are political, not just religious/theological. Right is still right, wrong is still wrong... and I'm not going to be one those liberals who downplays the concept of divine judgment.

So this is where the whole God damn America theme comes into play. People live in community, be they healthy or dysfunctional in nature. Nations who continually p!ss God off for their failure to care for the poor, for their violence, etc. get damned. Plain and simple.

 

[Gukkor]

Izdaari,

I've never believed that such things should be forced upon people. I have no problem admitting that the structures of power in such places like China are evil.

This is the fundamental distinction between what Clinton and Obama believe regarding universal health care. They say the same words, they mean different things. Clinton would mandate it for all, Obama would offer it to all. Very different.

God gives us free will and honors our choices. Jesus wanted to gather all of Jerusalem under hir wings but never made anyone do anything.

But the choices exist before all of us, and they are political, not just religious/theological. Right is still right, wrong is still wrong... and I'm not going to be one those liberals who downplays the concept of divine judgment.

So this is where the whole God damn America theme comes into play. People live in community, be they healthy or dysfunctional in nature. Nations who continually [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] God off for their failure to care for the poor, for their violence, etc. get damned. Plain and simple.

In my opinion, Karma is the safety valve which God has placed upon human societies so they don't take the rest of the world down with them when they go bad. This is in part why societies which become wealthy and decadent so often collapse, and often violently.

Oh, and yeah, I'd probably vote for another term of Bush before I'd vote Hillary in. Whomever she goes up against, I will almost certainly vote for, if only to keep her out of office.

Besides, she's already served two terms.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Izdaari,

I've never believed that such things should be forced upon people. I have no problem admitting that the structures of power in such places like China are evil.

This is the fundamental distinction between what Clinton and Obama believe regarding universal health care. They say the same words, they mean different things. Clinton would mandate it for all, Obama would offer it to all. Very different.

God gives us free will and honors our choices. Jesus wanted to gather all of Jerusalem under hir wings but never made anyone do anything.

But the choices exist before all of us, and they are political, not just religious/theological. Right is still right, wrong is still wrong... and I'm not going to be one those liberals who downplays the concept of divine judgment.

So this is where the whole God damn America theme comes into play. People live in community, be they healthy or dysfunctional in nature. Nations who continually [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] God off for their failure to care for the poor, for their violence, etc. get damned. Plain and simple.

I understand and agree. We need to do much better. But big government policies will not succeed in fighting poverty, but will increase it. Identity politics will not diminish racism, but will exacerbate it.

Liberal theology has a lot of merit (so long as it doesn't drift off into apostasy, as it sometimes tends to do), and I'm very much a charismatic/emergent or "charismissional" myself. But in my view, left-liberal politics is all screwed up. If liberation theology has something else to offer other than support for radical leftism and state socialism, I'm willing to hear it.