Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (2)

[ShieldOFaith]

You know, you still can't grasp the fact that, hey, not everyone agrees with you, or that guy, and that the more you quote him, the more we think you and him should be locked up for the rest of your physical lives for the betterment of mankind.

You are a pagan. I don't expect you to agree with anything that GOD has to say.

SOLA FIDE.

 

[DrStrangelove]

You are a pagan. I don't expect you to agree with anything that GOD has to say.

SOLA FIDE.

You're right. I don't. Not really, atleast. For I have the common sense to realise that being gay is no reason to kill anyone. <staff edit>

 

[Sycophant]

Paul, read this, understand this; know it.

VII. THE APPLICATION OF GOD'S LAW TO CIVIL JUSTICE
In order to more fully comprehend the issue at hand, it is important to understand the historical divisions of God's law.[...yawn...]categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. This [...yawn...]Monroe to Jackson on I-20, the [...yawn...]the bulk of the controversy lies. The question is as follows: Are the judicial and penal [...hehe Penal... yawn...]Confession seems hopelessly confusing[...yawn...]interpretation of 19:4 is radically inconsistent with[...yawn...]version of the WCF[...yawn...]vignette[...Mmmm Vinaigrette, I'd like a salad... yawn...]passed by the Assembly was[...did I just drift off a bit?...]restrain crime and more efficiently govern people?
--Pastor T. Mark Duncan

Okay SoF, you've posted that like five times... I've tried to read it everytime, but I just keep zoning out. It's boring. Say it in your own words if you want...

What I believe it's getting at is that god say (Romans 13) that government is more or less the his enforcement branch on earth (seeing as he's living in semi-retirement on royalties from the Bible?) - sure. Okay.

And that of the different types of OT laws (although I understand there's some dispute about what specific laws are what class) the judicial laws are the ones that government is empowered to uphold, ergo (I can do latin sometimes too) government is empowered by god to exercise capital punishment in cases of breaches of OT judicial law where that is the applicable penalty.

Howver, and this is where I think we're getting stuck a little, you seem to be proposing that your government would only carry out the capital punishment of some of those laws (killing the gays, but not the sabbith-workers - although you seem to have added insolent kids to the list). And also adding a offenses of your own (such as 'being a Gangster').

So, in your own words, ideally without a giant copy and paste, and even without Bible quotes (we'll ask for specific references if we think we need them) please explain this:

In executing capital punishment as dictated by god, what responsibilities does a government have?

Specifically: Are they able to chose not to make certain offenses punishable by death when the Bible suggests otherwise? And, are they in some way empowered to expand the scope of crimes punishable by death?

And... Given the above, how is the righteousness of the government's actions to be judged? How is it, for example, godly for the CSA to kill people for 'being a gangster' and yet similarly improper for Nazi Germany to kill Jews?

Also, for bonus points, and clarification - what would be the CSA's stance on birth control (in the form of 'The Pill', condoms, etc)?

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

Okay SoF, you've posted that like five times... I've tried to read it everytime, but I just keep zoning out. It's boring. Say it in your own words if you want...

He can't. His answer to practically every question posed has been massive cut-and-pastes of Bible verses or other fundie essays designed to either indoctrinate or obfuscate.

But is that really so strange? Fascist regimes tend to select their minions based on their ability to follow orders and their willingness to not question such orders.

 

[Gremlins]

You are a pagan. I don't expect you to agree with anything that GOD has to say.

SOLA FIDE.

Of course, your God might not even exist, whereas Dr. Strangeglove's might. Then you'd be a bit of a pickle.

 

[Paulos23]

Paul, read this, understand this; know it.

VII. THE APPLICATION OF GOD'S LAW TO CIVIL JUSTICE
In order to more fully comprehend the issue at hand, it is important to understand the historical divisions of God's law. To aid our understanding, God's law has been divided into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. This division is found in our Westminster Confession, chapter 19. The moral law is summarized in the 10 commandments and are, without question, applicable to the believer today (see WCF 19:2,5,6,7).




The ceremonial law was designed to be applied only in the shadows of the Old Covenant, since those bloody ceremonies served as sign posts pointing to the One whose blood would take away sin. The bloody rituals of the Old Covenant have been replaced by bloodless signs of baptism and the Lord's Supper in the New Covenant. The bloody signs of the Old Covenant pointed to a savior to come. The bloodless signs of the New Covenant point back to the savior who has come. It would not be accurate, however, to say that these ceremonial laws are abolished. They still teach us the principle that God requires a substitutionary blood sacrifice in order to forgive sins. For example, if you are traveling from Monroe to Jackson on I-20, the signs informing you of the number of miles to Jackson are very helpful. Once you arrive in Jackson, however, you no longer need those signs. They have served their purpose. They still apply to those traveling to Jackson and they still serve to remind you of where you were and the distance you have traveled.



The third category of the law is the judicial category and this is where the bulk of the controversy lies. The question is as follows: Are the judicial and penal sanctions in the law of Moses applicable to the Civil Magistrate today? The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 19:4 states: "To them (Israel) also as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws which expired together with the state of that people; not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

Although this statement from our Confession seems hopelessly confusing, a bit of careful thinking should clear the fog. First, it CANNOT mean that it is God's intent for the judicial law not to be applied at all. This would mean that the State is not under God in any way and implies that the Bible has nothing to say at all about penal justice. This is absolutely unconscionable and I cannot understand how any Christian could advocate such a monstrous position.

Besides, this interpretation of 19:4 is radically inconsistent with the Westminster Standards in other places. In the original version of the WCF, chapter 23, pertaining to the Civil Magistrate, one of the duties outlined by the Westminster Divines for the Civil Magistrate was that he is responsible to see that "all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed."

Although this provision was deleted in the late 1700's in the American version of the WCF, it is interesting to note that WLC question 108 (citing Deut. 7:5) was left intact. "The duties required in the Second Commandment are...disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship; and according to one's place and calling, removing it and all monuments of idolatry."

There is an interesting historical vignette helpful to our discussion on the relationship between the Westminster Confession and Theonomy. According to the book, Minutes of the Sessions of the Westminster Assembly, p. 211, discussing the debate on Chapter 20, Of Christian Liberty and the Liberty of Conscience, the wording originally passed by the Assembly was "under the gospel consists, especially in freedom from the guilt and power of sin...from the ceremonial and judicial law..." The phrase: "freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law was moved to a point later in the section. For the purpose of our discussion, however, the important point is that any mention of being free from the judicial law was excised altogether and never appeared in the WCF. (Thanks to Bill Anderson for this information). This means, that as a result of the debate at the Assembly, the Divines determined that the Christian was not free from the claims of the judicial law!

There is also a "theonomic flavor" in Larger Catechism, question 191, which asks: "What do we pray for in the second petition?

Part of the answer reads: "...the Church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ be purely dispensed... Thus, the Civil Magistrate has a role in protecting the true Church and keeping her pure. Reformed Presbyterians opposed to theonomy, must, in order to maintain integrity, take exceptions to these provisions in our Standards.

NOW PAY REAL CLOSE ATTENTION HERE:

Secondly, if the judicial laws no longer apply in any way, how could any civil magistrate do his duty according to Romans 13? Romans 13:4 teaches us that it is the duty of the Civil Magistrate to be an avenger of God's wrath on the one who practices evil. How is a Civil Magistrate to carry out this duty without an absolute standard of what is good and evil? Without biblical judicial law, it is up to the magistrate himself to determine what is good or evil. The magistrate or legislative body must then arbitrarily determine the punishment for criminal behavior. Thus, King James I of England applied the death penalty for pickpocketing. An abandonment of theonomy leads to arbitrariness, tyranny and uneven punishment. Although Old Testament law has an unjustified reputation of being harsh, a theonomic ethic actually serves to protect citizens against tyrants run amuck. Thirdly, Christians must remember who wrote the judicial laws. They come from the mind of a perfectly good and just God.

God is perfectly fair. An abandonment of theonomy implies that man is wiser than God. It implies that God does not know what He is doing when it comes to civil law. Does any Christian really believe that better and more just laws can come from the minds of sinful, finite, fallen men? How absurd!! Christians who detest theonomy must understand that they are arguing against God.

Theonomists did not write those civil laws, God wrote each one of them. Theonomists believe the laws of God are wiser than men and at least are attempting to believe them and apply them.

The Westminster Divines employed the terms "general equity" because they understood that the Bible was written to apply to all cultures in all times. The case laws provide man with principles of justice that can be applied to all nations in all epochs. For example, Deuteronomy 22:8 requires a parapet to be built around the roof of a home. The theonomic position does NOT maintain that all houses today must have a guard rail constructed on the roof. We look for the general equity of the law. What is God teaching us in this statute? The general equity is a principle of safety. There are many modern applications, such as a requirement to build a fence around a swimming pool, lest a child wander in and drown. If someone owned a house with a flat roof and he entertained guests on the roof, the general equity would be, in that case, a literal application of the law.

To those who deny that the principles of the Old Testament civil code apply today, there is a question that must be answered. With what do you plan to replace God's law? Are the Republicans and Democrats more competent than the Almighty to draft just and righteous laws? Is fallen man better equipped than God to write laws which restrain crime and more efficiently govern people?
--Pastor T. Mark Duncan


Exercise your brain and learn something new. And understand that you are wrong and you are lying when you say I am evil.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

Do you realize you are not proving that I am wrong or lying when you post this. You are just proving how fanatical you are. Nothing in this quote shows me that your version of God exists or if he did that he is just.

 

[TheReasoner]

You're right. I don't. Not really, atleast. For I have the common sense to realise that being gay is no reason to kill anyone. <staff edit>

I beg you to please remember that SoF is a madman, and is in no way to be seen as an actual representative for any faith but his own vile refuse.
He could just as well have been a wiccan making the same claims in the name of the goddess.

 

[Wednesday]

My word, until I've done my readings for next week I couldn't understand what those frases SoF puts in the end of his posts, meant.

It's all insane rumbling, followed by copy - paste, followed by some more insane rumbling finished off by some Latin.

Could you please speak good, old, plain English for once!

 

[ShieldOFaith]

And... Given the above, how is the righteousness of the government's actions to be judged? How is it, for example, godly for the CSA to kill people for 'being a gangster' and yet similarly improper for Nazi Germany to kill Jews?

Wow! A lot of questions. I give you props for at least attempting to read the text (p.s. good job on your humors revision; I chuckled.).

The gangster law would be put into effect because gangs have evolved into serious machines of death. If you aren't aware of some of the Italian Mafia gangs, or the infamous Biker gangs like the Bandidos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandidos, Hells Angels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hells_Angels, or street gangs like the Crips or Bloods. These gangs are very violent and revolve around Drug Trafficking, Extortion, Racketeering, and Murder. Hence they are group of men/women who band together to purposefully be outlaws and commit these vile acts.

Therefore there would be no gangs in the New C.S.A.. You would never see one of Gotti's boys, or a Bandido or a Crip in the C.S.A.. For if you came in and were to fly those colors you would be making a conscious and willful statement of "I am an outlaw gangster, and I am purposefully associating myself with this gang, who's express intent is Drug Trafficking, Extortion, Racketeering, and Murder": then this statement and willful breaking of the law will get you the sentence of death.

This is different from nazi germanys' murdering Jews because the Jews were not gangsters who's intent was Drug Trafficking, Extortion, Racketeering, and Murder. They were a race of people that were harming no one. They were being law abiding citizens and were minding their own business. Yet the possessed hitler decided to listen to the demons and start murdering them.

I hope this clears up this one question.

SOLA GRATIA.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A.

* (If I were to create a new nation, this is how it would go.) *

In establishing a New Nation, We the People of the Confederate States Of America do hereby hold these truths wholesome and eternal.

1. GOD is the creator and sustainer of all life on this planet. As well as the creator of everything inside and outside of the universe. Jesus Christ is God the Son the second person of the holy trinity. He was born of a virgin named Miriam, lived a perfect and sinless life. He was crucified, died, and was buried. He rose up from the dead on the third day. Forty days later He ascended to the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. Salvation is through Him and Him alone. There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved. Jesus Christ is the savior and there is none other. He is blessed forever. Amen.

2. We have the right to life and no one person or group can take away the right to life, save in cases of capital punishment. All human beings, born or unborn have the right to life. Only those who have committed crimes worthy of capital punishment, can have their lives taken from them.

3. Homosexuality is a sin and a complete abomination unto GOD. All attempts to create a sense of normalcy, and attempts to create laws to promote this vile sin are wicked, and against GOD.

4. The worship of GOD is wholesome and good. All Christians should have the right to worship GOD as they see fit. All attempts at stopping the worship of GOD are immoral and wicked. No man or group has the right to prevent the true worship of GOD.

5. Marxist Communism in all it's forms is wicked and evil. It is inspired by lucifer and should be driven from the face of the earth.

We the People of the New Confederate States Of America, hereby state these truths and hold them firm. We will strive to keep ourselves pure and stay close to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

We are a Christian Nation and will ever be so. No other faith will be officially recognized as the faith of this Nation. This will be true now, and forever more. Amen.

Now may the Lord Jesus Christ bless us all. Amen.
==================================================

This was the original Op. I reposted it so you all don't forget the basics here. This would by no rational person be considered insane. You may not agree with it, but you yourself would be mentally challenged if you were to say these words are insane.

I understand that many here are not conservative. I understand that many are not Christians. But to go around slandering someone with the label of insanity is just plain weak, and detracts from good conversation; especially when it is erroneous.

Try to keep it real folks.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

 

[Gremlins]

I personally don't agree with any of the opening statements and I think any nation that mentions homosexuality in the opening paragraph of its constitution is a bit nuts, but I agree that they're not totally unreasonable. However, nowhere there does it say "all people violating these rules, plus anyone we don't really like, will be lynched" nor "any country that we don't like the look of will be nuked".

 

[TheReasoner]

I personally don't agree with any of the opening statements and I think any nation that mentions homosexuality in the opening paragraph of its constitution is a bit nuts, but I agree that they're not totally unreasonable. However, nowhere there does it say "all people violating these rules, plus anyone we don't really like, will be lynched" nor "any country that we don't like the look of will be nuked".

No, the opening statement does not say so. But Shield has said so in other posts.
He has talked about using nuclear weapons to annihilate nations which harmed his citizens.
He has talked about outlawing and destroying several art-forms he dislikes. (does anyone other than me remember Hitler's blazing book/record/movie pyres?)
He has talked about implementing the death penalty for the sins the bible says carries the death penalty - and quite a few more things to top it off.
And - he uses GOD a whole lot (notice the all caps) to try and back his statements up. You will notice how he refuses to answer questions, repeats himself, quotes scripture very selectively, is condescending to a high degree, and so much more.
Then he proceeds to talk about how wonderful, loving and godly it all is. He has said that he is being opposed because he is a true christian, and us who oppose him are attacking a godly and righteous man and are clearly not saved.
Shield of Faith has to a frighteningly close degree described the third reich when he describes his C.S.A. I know the thread is loooong. And maybe some posts have been deleted by mods. But I think you'll still find the essence remains.

Practically everyone on here does not say Shield of Faith is insane (or evil, or a false prophet, or antichristian, or psychotic +++) for no reason. Those who don't (like USMC4Ever) are new to the thread and probably haven't read very many of his posts. If you do, you'll see a very very scary pattern.

 

[mpok1519]

You know nothing about the criminal-justice-system relationship. You see, the reason why society does not execute people en masse is because the people aren't stupid enough to allow it and will meat the govt with their own violence -- militaries would dissolve, chaos would ensue, anarchy would follow, and everyone would wonder "why isn't God doing anything?" as they weep while their children die. Thats bad, and you know this. =)

--------

Answer my quesiton. Would a widow be forced to marry her brother in law as commanded by OT law? yes, or no?
=)

 

[Sycophant]

Wow! A lot of questions. I give you props for at least attempting to read the text (p.s. good job on your humors revision; I chuckled.).

Thanks.

The gangster law would be put into effect because gangs have evolved into serious machines of death. [...]

Therefore there would be no gangs in the New C.S.A.. You would never see one of Gotti's boys, or a Bandido or a Crip in the C.S.A.. For if you came in and were to fly those colors you would be making a conscious and willful statement of "I am an outlaw gangster, and I am purposefully associating myself with this gang, who's express intent is Drug Trafficking, Extortion, Racketeering, and Murder": then this statement and willful breaking of the law will get you the sentence of death.

This seems unjust. It is a crime of association and a thought crime really. If murder is a capital offense that is fine you can execute murderers. But to execute someone for being in an association that you consider criminal is very unjust.

But can we clarify something that really leads into this. You've stated your position that the government can carry out the sentence for crimes punishable by death according to god - but can the government create it's own capital crimes that are over and above god's? And if so (as in the case with gang members) how are the limits of that power to be defined?

Also still want to know about the birth control issue.

And would the CSA offer any options for a citizen who discovered, after their inclusion within the CSA, that they were gay? Can they choose to leave? Or will they be killed as soon as anyone knows the truth?

 

[USMC4Life]

You know nothing about the criminal-justice-system relationship. You see, the reason why society does not execute people en masse is because the people aren't stupid enough to allow it and will meat the govt with their own violence -- militaries would dissolve, chaos would ensue, anarchy would follow, and everyone would wonder "why isn't God doing anything?" as they weep while their children die. Thats bad, and you know this. =)

--------

Answer my quesiton. Would a widow be forced to marry her brother in law as commanded by OT law? yes, or no?
=)

So tired of ignorant people who bring this up time after time, your only goal is to find something you don't like and have no intention of truly understanding what it even says. You probably don't even know what it is called so you use the desciption. The name for it is Yibbum. The wife and the brother of the husband can do Halizah to avoid marrying each other.

 

[DrStrangelove]

I beg you to please remember that SoF is a madman, and is in no way to be seen as an actual representative for any faith but his own vile refuse.
He could just as well have been a wiccan making the same claims in the name of the goddess.

Oh, I'm quite well aware he's not a representation of an entire faith. If I was refering to the Judeo-Christian god, I would refer to him as either the "God of Abraham", "Judeo-Christian God", ect.

I said "your god". His god is about as close to the Abrahamic deity as a pickle is to pizza..

 

[TheReasoner]

Oh, I'm quite well aware he's not a representation of an entire faith. If I was refering to the Judeo-Christian god, I would refer to him as either the "God of Abraham", "Judeo-Christian God", ect.

I said "your god". His god is about as close to the Abrahamic deity as a pickle is to pizza..

ah.
I am glad!

 

[USMC4Life]

Oh, I'm quite well aware he's not a representation of an entire faith. If I was refering to the Judeo-Christian god, I would refer to him as either the "God of Abraham", "Judeo-Christian God", ect.

I said "your god". His god is about as close to the Abrahamic deity as a pickle is to pizza..

Prove it.

 

[SallyNow]

You fail to see something. Those who live by the Spirit are not going to be doing all those horrible sins. They would have nothing to fear from the Government.

The C.S.A. would be a wonderful place to live. A place dedicated to the glory of GOD. A place where Christ is the corner stone. A place where we would love and bless GOD. Scripture would be engraved on all our buildings. Murals of GOD and all His glorious works would be everywhere.

Everyone is focusing on the Capital Punishment of the C.S.A.. There would be very little of that going on. Because there would already be very few people getting buck wild trying to commit all these evil sins.

Once again, you are only seeing things through American/ English eyes. You are assuming that the C.S.A. would be just like the U.S.A.. That would not be the case at all. There would not be a secular government. The government would be one dedicated to the glory of GOD. There would be lots of Prayer, Worship, Fasting, and Reading the Word of GOD in our government!!! As I said before, the C.S.A. would be founded upon the WORD OF GOD!!! Absolutely no apologies there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once again, I hit a nerve with the left because I stepped on their favorite pet sin; homosexuality. And we all know that if anyone says anything negative about homosexuality, it is mandatory that all leftists must rally around the rainbow flag and start the chanting and whistle blowing! Block out all reason. Forget truth ever existed. Just start chanting and repeating the party lines and buzz words, and you'll be ok.

So sorry; I'm not politically correct. That term comes from the communist party, and I have nothing to do with communism. I am a free born man, and I speak as one.

SOLA SCRIPTURA.

SOLA FIDE.

SOLA GRATIA.

SOLUS CHRISTUS.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

I get it.

Everything you don't agree with is left-wing. Left wing is bad. Everything you don't agree with is bad.

Let's forget that the very teachings of the New Testament are about forgiveness, are against capital punishment, are for joining hands with society's outcasts. In other words, in some ways, some teachings were the left-wing teachings of their day.

Everyone sins. Even those who do their best, their all, to avoid sin sometimes sin. Therefore, everyone has something to fear from a government that treats sinning as a capital crime. And everyone has something to fear from a government body that forgets the Golden Rule.

Yes, I will stand up against inhumane actions... that is part of Christianity. I will stand up against those who will torture others... and that includes standing up for the rights of homosexuals.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Oh, I'm quite well aware he's not a representation of an entire faith. If I was refering to the Judeo-Christian god, I would refer to him as either the "God of Abraham", "Judeo-Christian God", ect.

I said "your god". His god is about as close to the Abrahamic deity as a pickle is to pizza..

Here is my GOD, who happens to be the True and Living GOD. He is the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Here are His Words:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14 'But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies. Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you. 18 'And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 19 I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20 And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit. 21 'Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number; and your highways shall be desolate. 23 'And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me, 24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins. 25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant; when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you; and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. 26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied. 27 'And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, 28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. --Lev. 26

OUCH!

But wait!!! Hold on!!! Oh no!!!

I know right now you are saying,"This is not John 3:16, oh my! This can't be the Bible, because it doesn't sound like John 3:16. I can't believe GOD would say something like this. It doesn't sound like the weak watered down version of the Bible that I know!"

Once again, you really should read the WHOLE COUNCIL of GOD.

SOLA GRATIA.
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