Are there any SDAs aout there who do not agree with the state of the dead doctrine

[Eila]

Adventists do believe in spiritual death, which wouldn't mean instantaneous death of the body at the same time.

Which makes God's statement in the garden incorrect because Adam and Eve did not physically die the day they ate the fruit.

However, I've talked to you several times in the past and you like to apply spiritual death to verses that are clearly talking about physical death.

I can see how you would see it that way.

Also Eila, I happen to know for a fact that you do not agree with Lebesgue on this subject either. You didn't mention it, but you don't believe the soul goes to heaven upon death either.

I'm not sure what Lebesgue believes. I do believe soul and spirit are very much entwined and the soul and spirit both go to heaven upon death.

You believe it is the spirit that goes to God when we die, which is absolutely 100% scriptural. What you've never provided, even though I've asked several times, is scripture that says our spirits can think, walk, talk, etc after we die.

You have asked me several times? Sorry, I don't recall when.

Cannot angels communicate or do you believe they are in a physical body? Is God (who's image we were made in) not a spirit? Can God not think without a body?

Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus would be a good example.

 

[TrustAndObey]

1 Thess 4 "13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until he coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words."

I love these verses.

The dead in Christ are those referred to earlier in verse 14. They are the ones God will bring with Him when He comes back. They are the ones who have fallen asleep.

What I disagree with you about is what those spirits are capable of doing when they're outside of our bodies. You've said in the past that the spirits are CONSCIOUS of being with Jesus.

If the spirits in heaven are with Jesus and happy and conscious WITOUT their bodies, why do they need to be reunited with their old bodies, just to receive their glorified bodies almost instantaneously? Just for the new earth or what? I'm not sure why you think a spirit would need a body back if it's capable of joy, praise, thought etc without a body.

The dead being raised aren't just the righteous dead. Where does the spirit of a wicked person go when the person dies?

ALL spirits return to God who gave them when we die. So are the spirits of the wicked enjoying heaven right now? Are they consciously in the presence of God right now too?

Maybe this would help me understand what you're saying a little better...do you think there's a different kind of death between the wicked and the righteous?

Or do you think the spirit of the wicked goes to hell at death?

If you think they go to hell at death, I'm just curious as to why they would be resurrected FROM hell to be judged and then sent BACK to hell afterwards. I can't imagine a God that would send them to hell without telling them why they're going there first. There's a judgment DAY. That isn't conducive with judging each individual person at their individual deaths.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Which makes God's statement in the garden incorrect because Adam and Eve did not physically die the day they ate the fruit.

What?

Re-read what I posted please.

I said I do believe in spiritual death, but I also believe that "you shall surely die" was a curse on all mankind, not just Adam and Eve at that moment.

I'm not sure what Lebesgue believes.

He stated exactly what he believes in the OP of this thread.

I do believe soul and spirit are very much entwined and the soul and spirit both go to heaven upon death.

That has changed since I talked to you a while ago then. You told me you agreed that MAN became a living soul, and that it was just the spirit that returned to God at death.

You have asked me several times? Sorry, I don't recall when.

Let's say I've never asked before. I'm asking now, so can you show scripture that a human being's spirit is conscious after death?

Cannot angels communicate or do you believe they are in a physical body? Is God (who's image we were made in) not a spirit? Can God not think without a body?

Those are not human beings that have died Eila. That's God and His angels....not even close to what I'm asking you.

Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus would be a good example.

Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. We've covered this many times.

God has a finger, eyes, hands. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. God has a Spirit (the HOLY Spirit). But like you said, we were made in His image, and we have bodies too.

But why do you think a righteous person on earth doesn't need their glorified body before they can be with God? Why be with God, get sent back down here, and then receive our glorified bodies just to be with Him again?

I'm sorry Eila, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Eila]

I love these verses.

What I disagree with you about is what those spirits are capable of doing when they're outside of our bodies. You've said in the past that the spirits are CONSCIOUS of being with Jesus.

If the spirits in heaven are with Jesus and happy and conscious WITOUT their bodies, why do they need to be reunited with their old bodies, just to receive their glorified bodies almost instantaneously? Just for the new earth or what? I'm not sure why you think a spirit would need a body back if it's capable of joy, praise, thought etc without a body.

Because they need a new earth-suit because they will live on the new earth.

The dead being raised aren't just the righteous dead. Where does the spirit of a wicked person go when the person dies?

ALL spirits return to God who gave them when we die. So are the spirits of the wicked enjoying heaven right now? Are they consciously in the presence of God right now too?

Maybe this would help me understand what you're saying a little better...do you think there's a different kind of death between the wicked and the righteous?

Or do you think the spirit of the wicked goes to hell at death?

If you think they go to hell at death, I'm just curious as to why they would be resurrected FROM hell to be judged and then sent BACK to hell afterwards. I can't imagine a God that would send them to hell without telling them why they're going there first. There's a judgment DAY. That isn't conducive with judging each individual person at their individual deaths.

Spirits of those who are not born again go to Hades. Yes, God is in control of Hades not the devil. The spirit returns to God and God is not limited to a specific location. As Psalm 139 says "7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."

Judgment for a final destination does not happen at some future point. John 3 says "18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil"

Judgment at the end is for Gehenna, not Hades. Hades gives up it's dead and Hades itself is cast into Gehenna.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Because they need a new earth-suit because they will live on the new earth.

Why raise their old bodies from the grave at all then? Where are these people when this earth is being destroyed?

The first resurrection results in us being with Jesus for a thousand years. A thousand years WHERE?

Can you explain Revelation 20:1-6 in context with what you believe?

Spirits of those who are not born again go to Hades. Yes, God is in control of Hades not the devil. The spirit returns to God and God is not limited to a specific location. As Psalm 139 says "7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."

Judgment for a final destination does not happen at some future point. John 3 says "18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil"

So are you saying the books are opened and judgment is set BEFORE Christ returns the second time, individually for each person? Or that its set after He returns? I'm totally confused Eila.

Judgment at the end is for Gehenna, not Hades. Hades gives up it's dead and Hades itself is cast into Gehenna.

And Gehenna and punishment last through the ceaseless ages of eternity?

Were the wicked really promised eternal life?

What is the second death?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Eila, when do you think the new earth is created?

 

[Eila]

What?

Re-read what I posted please.

I said I do believe in spiritual death, but I also believe that "you shall surely die" was a curse on all mankind, not just Adam and Eve at that moment.

If spiritual death happens when the body dies, then God's statement that the day they ate the fruit they would die would be incorrect. I also agree that the death that happened in the garden was not just on Adam and Eve, but all humanity.

That has changed since I talked to you a while ago then. You told me you agreed that MAN became a living soul, and that it was just the spirit that returned to God at death.

My position hasn't changed, but perhaps I didn't word things correctly.

Let's say I've never asked before. I'm asking now, so can you show scripture that a human being's spirit is conscious after death?

Those are not human beings that have died Eila. That's God and His angels....not even close to what I'm asking you.

Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. We've covered this many times.

God has a finger, eyes, hands. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. God has a Spirit (the HOLY Spirit). But like you said, we were made in His image, and we have bodies too.

Earlier you mentioned that Satan can impersonate a dead person. Do you believe this impersonation is an actual body or a spirit?

The Bible uses the same word to refer to spirit when it talks of a person and when it talks of angels.

Luke 16 is a great example. Parable or not, why would the Son of God use error to teach truth when it was potentially one of the identifying marks of a false religion?

Why did Jesus neglect to teach his disciples that spirits cannot do anything after death? When Jesus appeared to the disciples after He died they thought He was a spirit. He didn't tell them that spirits cannot do anything after death - in contrast He proved to them that He was not a spirit by having them touch Him and by asking for food to eat.

Phil 1 "22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."

Depart and be with Christ is referred to being much better than living on in the flesh.



2 Cor 5 "6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
7for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

This also suggests that being absent from the body is a good thing because we will be with the Lord.

2 Cor 12 "2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--
4was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

This text suggests the possibility for someone to hear and think apart from the body.

Rev 6 "9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also."

Souls who have died are crying out and are communicated with.



Isaiah 14 "9"Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10"They will all respond and say to you,
'Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us."

Describes spirits of the dead as communicating.

But why do you think a righteous person on earth doesn't need their glorified body before they can be with God? Why be with God, get sent back down here, and then receive our glorified bodies just to be with Him again?

I'm sorry Eila, it doesn't make sense.

I don't think it would make sense knowing the SDA's eschatological position.

 

[Eila]

Why raise their old bodies from the grave at all then? Where are these people when this earth is being destroyed?

The first resurrection results in us being with Jesus for a thousand years. A thousand years WHERE?

Can you explain Revelation 20:1-6 in context with what you believe?



So are you saying the books are opened and judgment is set BEFORE Christ returns the second time, individually for each person? Or that its set after He returns? I'm totally confused Eila.



And Gehenna and punishment last through the ceaseless ages of eternity?

Were the wicked really promised eternal life?

What is the second death?

Eila, when do you think the new earth is created?

In short, I don't want to get into eschatology. I understand my viewpoint does not make sense because of your eschatological position.

Judgment for a person's destination is determined right now. As long as a person is living on earth their destination can change. Judgment for a person's reward/punishment comes later.

Eternal life is only for the righteous. Life does not equal existence. Life is a gift from God. There are plenty of dead people existing today who have not taken freely of the eternal life offered to them.

 

[NightEternal]

I was referring to the large print and BOLDING that you used.

You misunderstood me, I totally agree that spirits could impersonate dead loved ones....but read what Lebesgue said again. He said the spirits of the dead loved ones would tell a person not to believe in EGW (eye roll) and Adventist doctrine. The state of the dead is NOT Adventist doctrine and he proved that by saying many Messianics feel the same way we do about death.

Trust, why did you address Sophia's post and completely ignore mine?

 

[TrustAndObey]

If spiritual death happens when the body dies, then God's statement that the day they ate the fruit they would die would be incorrect. I also agree that the death that happened in the garden was not just on Adam and Eve, but all humanity.

It was the beginning of mortality. We are mortal. Only God has immortality. The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death was not part of the original plan.

I didn't say spiritual death always only happens when the body dies. In fact, I said spiritual death doesn't necessarily coincide with physical death.

However, even if a spirit is with God and "alive", you need to show scripture that shows what that means. What are those spirits capable of experiencing and doing without a breathing human body?

Earlier you mentioned that Satan can impersonate a dead person. Do you believe this impersonation is an actual body or a spirit?

A spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. How would I see a dead loved one if they were just a mist or something?

Satan will perform miracles. Impersonating someone that I used to love very much is right up his alley I'd say. He'd need a BODY to do it though.

I've never seen the Holy Spirit, but I feel His presence all the time. A recognizable presence with a face? No.

The Bible uses the same word to refer to spirit when it talks of a person and when it talks of angels.

Everybody has a spirit, but not everybody is righteous or angelic. I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Luke 16 is a great example. Parable or not, why would the Son of God use error to teach truth when it was potentially one of the identifying marks of a false religion?

The parable is about our choices in LIFE, so it's not error. It wasn't about what literally happens to us when we die.

The rich man had every luxury on this earth, yet he will not be with God in the end.

The poor man had nothing on earth, but he has the promise of eternal life.

We know very little about the two people in the parable and there is no account of what horrible sins the rich man committed, other than not helping Lazarus out.

Let's go through the parable verse by verse in a different thread okay? Not tonight, but soon.

If Lazarus in the parable didn't have a body and was just a spirit (like you're suggesting is the case with righteous people that die today), how would he dip his finger in water for the rich man? For that matter, how does the rich man have a tongue if he is just a spirit with no body???

Why did Jesus neglect to teach his disciples that spirits cannot do anything after death? When Jesus appeared to the disciples after He died they thought He was a spirit. He didn't tell them that spirits cannot do anything after death - in contrast He proved to them that He was not a spirit by having them touch Him and by asking for food to eat.

BINGO. He proved to them that He wasn't a spirit. Why do you think they didn't recognize Him at first Eila? And why could people see Christ ascend back up into heaven?

He had a body when He went to heaven. Why should I believe it will be different for any one of us?

Our bodies will be different, but we'll definitely have them when we meet Jesus in the air. When we PUT ON immortality in our "new earth suits" as you called them.

Phil 1 "22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."

Depart and be with Christ is referred to being much better than living on in the flesh.

Amen. To die IS gain when you are a believer. In the twinkling of an eye we will be resurrected and put on immortality. That equates to not even a second of ending your life in the flesh until you're in the presence of our Savior.

Paul said "at the last trump". That hasn't happened yet.

2 Cor 5 "6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
7for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

This also suggests that being absent from the body is a good thing because we will be with the Lord.

Yeah, but when? AT THE LAST TRUMP!

2 Cor 12 "2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--
4was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

This text suggests the possibility for someone to hear and think apart from the body.

Paul said he didn't know if this guy had a body or not. How do you get "he was definitely a spirit" out of that uncertainty?

Rev 6 "9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also."

Souls who have died are crying out and are communicated with.

Has the lamb broken the fifth seal already? Really? WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY EVER TELL ME THESE THINGS?

(I crack myself up).

Isaiah 14 "9"Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10"They will all respond and say to you,
'Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us."

Describes spirits of the dead as communicating.

Yeah, when?

I don't think it would make sense knowing the SDA's eschatological position.

Yet ironically Lebesgue's question was asking SDAs their opinion about this. Of course your view doesn't make sense to most of the people here Eila. Did you honestly think it would?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I'm off to bed.

Goodnight sister Eila. I look forward to going over the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man with you another time, okay?

 

[Eila]

It was the beginning of mortality. We are mortal. Only God has immortality. The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death was not part of the original plan.

I didn't say spiritual death always only happens when the body dies. In fact, I said spiritual death doesn't necessarily coincide with physical death.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote. What do you believe "spiritual death" means?

However, even if a spirit is with God and "alive", you need to show scripture that shows what that means. What are those spirits capable of experiencing and doing without a breathing human body?

I do believe I have shown verses that describe consciousness after death. The Bible does not go into great detail about life after death because the Bible is written for those on earth about life on earth.

A spirit doesn't have flesh and bones. How would I see a dead loved one if they were just a mist or something?

Satan will perform miracles. Impersonating someone that I used to love very much is right up his alley I'd say. He'd need a BODY to do it though.

I've never seen the Holy Spirit, but I feel His presence all the time. A recognizable presence with a face? No.

I am a little confused here. You say a spirit can deceive me, but it is a body that I see? Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. So is it a spirit in a resurrected dead person's body that one would see?

Everybody has a spirit, but not everybody is righteous or angelic. I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Spirit beings aren't anything to do with being righteous or angelic. The Bible uses the same Greek word to describe a man's spirit, an angel, an evil spirit. In other words, it doesn't distinguish or use a different word to describe a human's spirit than it does to describe a spirit without a body.

The parable is about our choices in LIFE, so it's not error. It wasn't about what literally happens to us when we die.

The rich man had every luxury on this earth, yet he will not be with God in the end.

The poor man had nothing on earth, but he has the promise of eternal life.

We know very little about the two people in the parable and there is no account of what horrible sins the rich man committed, other than not helping Lazarus out.

Let's go through the parable verse by verse in a different thread okay? Not tonight, but soon.

If you want to. First you must establish a precedent that Jesus can uses a parable to describe something that cannot happen.

If Lazarus in the parable didn't have a body and was just a spirit (like you're suggesting is the case with righteous people that die today), how would he dip his finger in water for the rich man? For that matter, how does the rich man have a tongue if he is just a spirit with no body???

I believe spirits don't have flesh and bones, but they do look like a human figure.

BINGO. He proved to them that He wasn't a spirit. Why do you think they didn't recognize Him at first Eila? And why could people see Christ ascend back up into heaven?

How do you know they didn't recognize Him? It just says they were started and frightened because they thought they saw a spirit. They had no problem with the idea that a spirit could be seen.

Christ had a glorifed body, not a resurrected old body.

He had a body when He went to heaven. Why should I believe it will be different for any one of us?

Our bodies will be different, but we'll definitely have them when we meet Jesus in the air. When we PUT ON immortality in our "new earth suits" as you called them.

He brings people back to earth with him before they have received their glorified bodies.

Amen. To die IS gain when you are a believer. In the twinkling of an eye we will be resurrected and put on immortality. That equates to not even a second of ending your life in the flesh until you're in the presence of our Savior.

He was torn about what to do. If it was a twinkling of an eye thing and he would be unconscious then it would be a benefit for him to stay on earth. Departing and being with Christ is very different than being unconscious and in the sweet by and by you will be with Christ. Die is gain is different from die will be gain.

Paul said "at the last trump". That hasn't happened yet.

Where does it say that in the Phillipians text?

Yeah, but when? AT THE LAST TRUMP!

Where do you find a reference to the last trump in 2 Cor 5?

Paul said he didn't know if this guy had a body or not. How do you get "he was definitely a spirit" out of that uncertainty?

I didn't say that, but it does suggest that Paul had no problem with a person functioning apart from the body.

Has the lamb broken the fifth seal already? Really? WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY EVER TELL ME THESE THINGS?

(I crack myself up).

Do you believe all things are finished at the 5th seal? The text says that Christians will still be killed on earth. Do you believe that souls have a conscious existence at the point in time when Christians are still being killed?

Yeah, when?

Seeing how this is talking about the king of Babylon I would say this is past tense.

 

[OntheDL]

It is interesting that you say that.

See Satan's statement

Genesis 3 " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman."

See God's statement:

Genesis 2 "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

SDA theology doesn't allow for spiritual death which would make Satan's statement true and God's statement false. God said they would die the day they ate the fruit and Satan said they wouldn't. According to SDA theology they didn't die the day they ate the fruit, but nearly 1000 years later.

I don't know what SDA theology are you talking about.

There is not contradiction of what God said and what happened, if you understand what God actually said...

God said in Gen 2:17 which was translated in English you will surely die. The phrase 'will surely' does not exist in the original Hebrew.

Look up your interlinear bible if you have one, the Hebrew text repeated the word 'die' twice. It actually reads you die die. This practice in Hebrew is to emphasis on the word.

Eve had never seen death. She could not have comprehended the meaning of death. It's very clear to see when Eve answered the serpent in Gen 3:3, Eve used the word 'die' only once. She doubted not the suddenness, but the certainty of death.

As shown how God's word was phrased in hebrew and how Eve responded, the better translation of Gen 2:17 would have been: "for in the day you eat of it, death becomes certainty."

On that day, they began to die.

 

[OntheDL]

Doesn't SDA theology say spirit equals breath or are you giving a different meaning here?

I think we are looking at this from very different perspectives. That instance may work if you encounter a spirit appearing before you in your driveway, but if someone is possessed by a spirit they will need you to minister to them when the evil spirit leaves.

Humans are not spiritual beings. Only God and angels are spiritual beings.

No where in the bible it says when a man die, his spirit lives on and has its own intelligence.

The word spirit in hebrew means wind or breath. That's the exact definition the bible gave:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit of a man is simply the breath of life that came from God. Nothing more.

The body + breath/spirit = a living soul

The spirit does not think, the spirit does not have conscience. No where in the bible suggest it.

When a man dies, his body returns to dust, the spirit/breath of life returns to God who gave it. And his thoughts perish, Eccl 9:5,6.

Only God and angels are spirits and are immortal. To suggest mortal man has the same immortal spirit is to say man are like god. That's exactly the first lie Satan told to man.

 

[NightEternal]

Okaaaaayyy...

Clearly there is a problem here that I am not aware of.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems kind of rude to blatantly ignore a person's posts without telling them why.

 

[Eila]

I don't know what SDA theology are you talking about.

There is not contradiction of what God said and what happened, if you understand what God actually said...

God said in Gen 2:17 which was translated in English you will surely die. The phrase 'will surely' does not exist in the original Hebrew.

Look up your interlinear bible if you have one, the Hebrew text repeated the word 'die' twice. It actually reads you die die. This practice in Hebrew is to emphasis on the word.

Eve had never seen death. She could not have comprehended the meaning of death. It's very clear to see when Eve answered the serpent in Gen 3:3, Eve used the word 'die' only once. She doubted not the suddenness, but the certainty of death.

As shown how God's word was phrased in hebrew and how Eve responded, the better translation of Gen 2:17 would have been: "for in the day you eat of it, death becomes certainty."

On that day, they began to die.

Began to die holds a different meaning than die die. Becomes a certainty holds that it can be in the future rather than in the day they ate the fruit.

 

[Eila]

Humans are not spiritual beings. Only God and angels are spiritual beings.

No where in the bible it says when a man die, his spirit lives on and has its own intelligence.

The word spirit in hebrew means wind or breath. That's the exact definition the bible gave:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit of a man is simply the breath of life that came from God. Nothing more.

The body + breath/spirit = a living soul

The spirit does not think, the spirit does not have conscience. No where in the bible suggest it.

When a man dies, his body returns to dust, the spirit/breath of life returns to God who gave it. And his thoughts perish, Eccl 9:5,6.

Only God and angels are spirits and are immortal. To suggest mortal man has the same immortal spirit is to say man are like god. That's exactly the first lie Satan told to man.

Consider this John 20 "21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

The idea of breath and spirit is related, but it is actually what our lungs breathe in and out? Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit. We know the Holy Spirit is not what our lungs breath in and out.

We see in the Bible that spirit is not just breath. For instance:



Mark 2 "8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?"

Luke 1 "46And Mary said:
"(My soul exalts the Lord,
47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."

John 3 "6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 13 "21When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me."

The same Greek word used to describe the Holy Spirit and evil spirit is used to describe our spirit. Does that mean that we are God? Of course not, but it does suggest that spirit does not equal breath.

 

[OntheDL]

Consider this John 20 "21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

The idea of breath and spirit is related, but it is actually what our lungs breathe in and out? Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit. We know the Holy Spirit is not what our lungs breath in and out.

We see in the Bible that spirit is not just breath. For instance:

Mark 2 "8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?"

Luke 1 "46And Mary said:
"(My soul exalts the Lord,
47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."

John 3 "6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 13 "21When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me."

The same Greek word used to describe the Holy Spirit and evil spirit is used to describe our spirit. Does that mean that we are God? Of course not, but it does suggest that spirit does not equal breath.

I didn't say the holy spirit is what we breath in and breath out.

One is the wind/air we breath. This is physical.

One is the holy spirit that gives us thoughts and awareness. This is spiritual.

The holy spirit can live in us. But it is not part of us. Because the holy spirit can leave and we can still be alive.

But when the spirit or the breath leaves, we are dead. They are two different things.

 

[OntheDL]

Began to die holds a different meaning than die die. Becomes a certainty holds that it can be in the future rather than in the day they ate the fruit.

Gen 2:17 did not suggest the suddenness of death on that day. Some also translates "muwt muwt" as 'dying you shall die'.

If you study the serpent's deceptive answer in Gen 3:4 in Hebrew, you will see the serpent technically did not contradict the certainty of death, but the suddenness of the death. The serpent actually answered Eve 'you will not suddenly die' or 'in dying you shall not die'. So the serpent gave an accurate answer. And it was a clever deception which the woman had no chance of discerning except if she had trusted God on faith.

"For in the day..." merely marks the time when death becomes reality for someone who had known no death.

 

[Lebesgue]

Then let's see it.



Think about that one for just a minute. Do you believe the wicked will be tormented in hell through the ceaseless ages of eternity? If so, then they will NEVER die either, right?

The wicked were never promised eternal life, but some people are insistent that they'll have it, in torment. It's still eternal life, no matter how you slice it.

Being resurrected in the blink of an eye means exactly that. You aren't going to know that your thoughts have perished since you won't HAVE any. To you it will feel like a split second.

People die all the time Lebesgue. I know you know this. Even the righteous ones.



That one has been done to death in this forum and I'm too tired to go through it all again, but the punctuation is wrong in that verse. Otherwise the bible contradicts itself.



If that verse were ever quoted for what it really says I think I'd faint.

Here's what it really says: 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Two verses before that it says if you are in the body, you are absent from the Lord. Do you think that's literal?

Read all the verses around it.



Cripes Lebesgue, you sound like someone that has trouble standing up for yourself, and from what I've seen of your posts, that just doesn't appear to be the case.

And yes, "forced" wasn't really a good word you used to describe your wife MAKING you go.

I don't do things I LIKE to do for a year, let alone doing something I'm "miserable" at for fourteen years.

STAND UP man. It feels good.

1) Y'shua meant what He said. Those who believe in Him will NEVER die. The soul of those who die in Y'shua go to be with Him, He brings the souls of those who die in Him back to be reuinted with their new, glorified bodies. As for the wicked, yes I believe in an eternal hell. While they are techincally "alive" there it really isn't life now, is it?

I agree pretty much with what Eila has said about this.

2) As for standing up for myself I do. Obviously I'm not SDA anymore and my dear wife is even ok with it and has even been supportive of my becoming Messianic.
The 14 years wasn't all misery, I made friends in the SDA church and LOVE the people, it's the doctrines I don't care much for. The misery came in despairing for my salvation because I knew I couldn't live up to the perfection Ellen White said was required to be saved. It nearly drove me to athiesm and that is a place I don't care to go to again.

And I am actually greatful for the 14 years I spent as an SDA I leaned things I wouldn't have otherwise. Number 1 how important GRACE is, and number 2 I leaned that the Bible doesn't start at Matthew. There are things such as Shabbat and the food laws that I always agreed with and still keep as a Messianic.

It was miserable jumping through all the Adventist "hoops" and not knowing if I was even going to be saved. The despair I felt in my last months as an Adventist I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Thank G-d today I KNOW I am saved by the Blood of Y'shua.

Shalom,

Lebesgue