Does the Roman Church focus on Peter too much

[ScottBot]

Lets keep the conversation on topic please. IF you want to talk about Mary and her role in Christianity, there is an appropriate subforum for that. Thanks.

 

[fated]

This was mentioned in another thread by a RC concerning the Peter and Paul of the NC in the Bible.
Questionoes the Roman Church put too much focus on the Peter and not enough on the Paul. Thoughts?

LLofJ, it seems that your questions revolve around supporting the "logical" nature of some dispute. Or, quite possibly, just keeping the discussion going with the Catholics... shall we say, stirring the pot?

One can reason a great many things from the Bible and from the sciences, however, that does not make contradicting points equally true.

One can write out a great number of things regarding Peter, for instance, and the "upon this rock" passage specifically. Most Protestants are forced to reject a particular interpretation, because of their theology. This is not the case for Roman Catholics. It is also not the case for the Orthodox, who have Apostolic Orders.

So, regarding the "upon this rock" passage, I would say that the RCC clearly has the fullness of Truth. Others reject that which is historically true, perhaps because they don't like -human- history, and make a definition contrary to the RCC. Namely that the Pope does not have Primacy.

The Orthodox, you'll note, typically don't use the word "Primacy," which seems to have validity, and typically object to "Supremacy," which I think, is akin to asserting that the Pope does not or should not have the kind of coercive force he has used in the pass.... not that he has none... just not that much...

 

[chestertonrules]

Scriptures distorted by Mont!

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring— those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

21 Again Jesus said, Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

 

[holdon]

Scriptures distorted by Mont!

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring— those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Who says this woman is Mary???

18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

21 Again Jesus said, Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

"Breathed on them" . Not just Peter.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I always have to chuckle a little when rc's accuse us of following manmade doctrines.

Because in some cases they are self made. LOL

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So, regarding the "upon this rock" passage, I would say that the RCC clearly has the fullness of Truth.

Based upon the Word of course

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and booths/eskhnwsen <4637> (5656) IN US, and we esteem the glory of Him, glory as an Only-begotten beside Father, full of Grace and Truth

Revelation 21:3 and I hear a voice, great, out of the heaven, saying, `Behold!, the booth/skhnh <4633> of the God with the men, and He shall be boothing/skhnwsei <4637> (5692) with them, and they, peoples of Him shall be and He, the God is with them

http://christianforums.com/t6728727-the-word-booth-in-nt-nc.html

 

[chestertonrules]

Who says this woman is Mary???

"Breathed on them" . Not just Peter.

I hope it's ok if I answer this, even though we have been warned.

Read the whole Chapter. The woman gave birth to Jesus.

 

[chestertonrules]

Who says this woman is Mary???

"Breathed on them" . Not just Peter.

I agree.

The Apostles were given the power to forgive sins.

This was passed on to their successors.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So, regarding the "upon this rock" passage, I would say that the RCC clearly has the fullness of Truth.

We discuss that over here bro

http://christianforums.com/t6871750&page=4

Matt 16:18 and Greek question

Matthew 16:16 Answering yet Simon Peter/petroV <4074> said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the God, the living".
17 Answering yet the Jesus said to him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: that flesh and blood not it un-covers to thee, but the Father of Me, the in the heavens. 18 And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter/petroV <4074>, and upon this, the rock/petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the assembly, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

Tex-Rec NT) Matthew 16:18 kagw <2504> [AND I] de <1161> {YET} soi <4671> {TO THEE} legw <3004> (5719) { AM SAYING,} oti <3754> {THAT} su <4771> {THOU} ei <1488> (5748) {ART} petroV <4074> {PETER,} kai <2532> {AND} epi <1909> {UPON} tauth <3778> [THIS] th <3588> {THE} petra <4073> {ROCK} oikodomhsw <3618> (5692) {I WILL BUILD} mou <3450> {OF ME} thn <3588> {THE} ekklhsian <1577> {ASSEMBLY,} kai <2532> {AND} pulai <4439> {GATES} adou <86> {OF HADES} ou <3756> {NOT} katiscusousin <2729> (5692) {SHALL BE PREVAILING} authV <846> {OF IT.}

 

[fated]

Based upon the Word of course

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and booths/eskhnwsen <4637> (5656) IN US, and we esteem the glory of Him, glory as an Only-begotten beside Father, full of Grace and Truth

Revelation 21:3 and I hear a voice, great, out of the heaven, saying, `Behold!, the booth/skhnh <4633> of the God with the men, and He shall be boothing/skhnwsei <4637> (5692) with them, and they, peoples of Him shall be and He, the God is with them

http://christianforums.com/t6728727-the-word-booth-in-nt-nc.html

If one's interpretation cut's the popes and bishops off, by its -unnecessary- restrictive definitions, then one cannot properly honor the authority of the "seat of Moses" (taken by force) as indicated by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not need to take the "chair of Moses," as it was His, He didn't need to give it to Himself. Moses did not serve Moses, but Jesus Christ. He gave the "seat of Moses" by force, to St. Peter the Apostle.

 

[holdon]

I hope it's ok if I answer this, even though we have been warned.

Read the whole Chapter. The woman gave birth to Jesus.

Yes, but in the apocalypse this woman is Israel. By the way did Mary not fly to heaven (in your religion) instead of this woman being swallowed by the earth??

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If one's interpretation cut's the popes and bishops off, by its -unnecessary- restrictive definitions, then one cannot properly honor the authority of the "seat of Moses" (taken by force) as indicated by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not need to take the "chair of Moses," as it was His, He didn't need to give it to Himself. Moses did not serve Moses, but Jesus Christ. He gave the "seat of Moses" by force, to St. Peter the Apostle.

The Messianics had an interesting discussion about that over here:

http://christianforums.com/t6582643-moses-seat.html

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 23:2 Saying upon the Moses seated/kaqedraV <2515> are-seated the Scribes and the Pharisees.

Revelation 4:4 And surrounding the throne, thrones, twenty four, and upon the thrones twenty four elders seated/kaqhmenouV <2521> (5740), having been about-cast garments, white, and upon the heads of them, crowns, golden

 

[mont974x4]

The Messianics had an interesting discussion about that over here:

http://christianforums.com/t6582643-moses-seat.html

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 23:2 Saying upon the Moses seated/kaqedraV <2515> are-seated the Scribes and the Pharisees.

Revelation 4:4 And surrounding the throne, thrones, twenty four, and upon the thrones twenty four elders seated/kaqhmenouV <2521> (5740), having been about-cast garments, white, and upon the heads of them, crowns, golden

God did not insitute the chair of pete...nor the earthly priesthood as rome claims.

The need for such things was fullfilled with by Christ on the Cross.

 

[ScottBot]

I guess you guys didn't catch my mod-hat post regarding staying on topic. You are welcome to discuss Mary's role in Christianity in the proper subform. We had an entire line of threads dedicated to just that topic. It is off topic here. The topic in question is Peter, and if Catholic give him too much regard.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have to leave for awhile. Keep the "coals burning"

LLOJ [quietly and humbly bows out of this thread "again"]

 

[mont974x4]

yep...off to do some studying before playing games with my son.

 

[fated]

God did not insitute the chair of pete...nor the earthly priesthood as rome claims.

The need for such things was fullfilled with by Christ on the Cross.

The Messianics had an interesting discussion about that over here:

http://christianforums.com/t6582643-moses-seat.html

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 23:2 Saying upon the Moses seated/kaqedraV <2515> are-seated the Scribes and the Pharisees.

Revelation 4:4 And surrounding the throne, thrones, twenty four, and upon the thrones twenty four elders seated/kaqhmenouV <2521> (5740), having been about-cast garments, white, and upon the heads of them, crowns, golden

Why end it? That seems unnecessarily definitive. Makes more sense to keep it. Jesus did not write a Bible that interprets itself. Yes, the Holy Spirit helps us understand the Bible, however, who then is our Judge? If you say it is the Holy Spirit, then why is there disagreement, even direct contradiction?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

whoo boy. Alright, let's parse through the cut and paste. To save time of putting multiple quote marks, I'll just bracket.

Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles. (irrelevant to whether or not Peter was to rule over the church.)
Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.(uh, he started to sink. The faith failed him then. He was rebuked for it. But irregardless, irrelveant to papal supremecy.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ. (cool. Irrelevant to papal supremacy.)
Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father. (uh huh. which makes me wonder why Christ had other followers. Again, irrelevant.)
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head. (the most contested scripture of all time, I think.)
Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority. (and in Revelation, the keys are not in his hands, nor in the hands of any mortal man. Did Jesus go to the keycentre and make copies? Jesus possesses the keys.)

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ. (irreleveant.)
Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth. (irrelevant.)
Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings. (irrelevant.)
Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him. (irrelevant)
Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him. (irrelevant.)
Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree. (irrelevant)
Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader. (no such extrapolation can be made. He was rebuked by Jesus. The adding of him being accountable for the rest of them is an apologetic add on.)
Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ. (no such mention of leadership in the passage.)
Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth. (it is not a metaphor. Jesus was actually in a boat.
Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men." (of course, this ignores the passages where Jesus calls other Apostles the same.)Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him. (irrelevant)
Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples. (irrelevant. and the answer was kind of flippant.)
Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved. (irrelevant.)
Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration. (irrelevant. I would think if it was peter peter only peter, he would be the only one there.)
Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven. (apologetic add on. Irrelevant to papal supremacy.)
Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles. (ok... and again, irrelevant to Papal supremacy.)
Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first. (or, he was afraid to go in. Assigning motive to someone. Irrelevant.)
Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33. (irrelevant yet again.)
John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse. (and others spoke too. Irrelevant.)
John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet. (another point where Peter just didn't get it. also irrelevant.
John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred. (and was Peter the only one martyred? irrelevant.)
John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church. (no, it really is a boat.)
John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God. (apologetic add on.)
John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see. (restoration of Peter after his denials.)
John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles. (which, is to be the charge of all of the Apostles.)
Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room. (so?)
Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course. (If he really were a pope, why wouldn't he appoint, instead of cast lots?)
Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel. (and others spoke. irrelevant.)
Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. (so?)
Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray. (so?)
Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles. (and he was nowhere near the only one. irrelevant.)
Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ. (and the others teach the same thing.)
Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority. (so, then, you are saying he killed them? I always attributed that to the HS.)
Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power. (irrelevant. The Apostles healed. not just Peter.)
Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation. (irrelevant.)
Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority. (irrelevant.)
Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas. (irrelevant.)
Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead. (irrelevant)
Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision. (and others were granted visions. Paul was caught up to the third heaven to learn from Christ. irrelevant.)
Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles). (irrelevant.)
Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment. (as is well and good. what of it?)
Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church. (irrelevant. Many others had divine intervention on their side.)
Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent. (really? Looked like it was a council decision to me.)
Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching. (baloney. That isn't even what it says.)
Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..." (I notice you cut out the part where James states "It is my judgement therefore....)
Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome. (apologetic add on. Nothing about Peter here at all.)
1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord. (so?)
1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.” (so? historical list of how Jesus appeared.)
Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul. (irrelevant.)
1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church. (then we should call Paul a Pope. He spent far more time doing the same thing.)
1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome. (which is funny, because others use Rome by name.)
2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer. (so?)
2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock. Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.


I am quite sure you will not bother to go through the list as I have.

however, I note, the VAST majority of the "proof" is that Peter got his name mentioned first.

it is an incredibly irrelevant point.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Good googly goo!

I have not seen UB post in that length in some time.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Good googly goo!

I have not seen UB post in that length in some time.

I cheated. The majority is from someone elses's cut and paste.

My stuff is only in the brackets.