Are there any SDAs aout there who do not agree with the state of the dead doctrine

[NightEternal]

Please don't take offence to this but wouldn't you be happier at a Seventh Day Baptist Church? Have you tried one?

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Lebesgue, I thought we had already covered this?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=44015317#post44015317

 

[Lebesgue]

Lebesgue, I thought we had already covered this?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=44015317#post44015317

Sorry, Night. You're right it was covered before.

My bad.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[TrustAndObey]

Not sure what the blind reference is for; I never said you were blind. I posted those quotes because you were acting as if what Lebesgue heard about people being visited by demons impersonating their dead loved ones and being deceived into rejecting Adventist "truths" isn't taught in mainstream Adventism. It is. It's not some "whacked out," extremist version of Adventism; it's what EGW wrote, so unless the SDA Church stops accepting her writings as "a continuing and authoritative source of truth," it's a part of mainstream Adventism.

I was referring to the large print and BOLDING that you used.

You misunderstood me, I totally agree that spirits could impersonate dead loved ones....but read what Lebesgue said again. He said the spirits of the dead loved ones would tell a person not to believe in EGW (eye roll) and Adventist doctrine. The state of the dead is NOT Adventist doctrine and he proved that by saying many Messianics feel the same way we do about death.

Lebesgue, did you get your answer? Were there any Adventists here that don't believe in the state of the dead?

 

[TrustAndObey]

This reminds me of a prophecy seminar I watched on 3ABN. The speaker was telling a story of an encounter with a spirit and how he ran away as fast as he could.

There is another perspective here. We are not taught in the Scripture to run from evil spirits, but to tell them to go. They do not have power over us, but we who have God living in us have power over them. So if you are visited or encounter an evil spirit tell it to go.

When I first starting posting in this thread I almost said "my friend Eila will be here soon." Yep, you're like clockwork.

And Eila, if you had a dead child, and suddenly that child was standing in front of you with a message they said was from Jesus....do you think it'd be difficult to tell them to go and never come back? That's how satan works and we already know he'll impersonate, but how brilliant would it be to impersonate someone that we loved very much?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Lebesgue, I just want you to consider this:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

He promised to come again to receive us. Does this mean that He comes here every single time a righteous person dies? How many second comings are there?

 

[OntheDL]

The immortality of the soul, a lie first told by Satan in the Garden is one of two identifying marks of a false religion.

 

[TrustAndObey]

The immortality of the soul, a lie first told by Satan in the Garden is one of two identifying marks of a false religion.

Amen.

 

[TrustAndObey]

This was one of the reasons why I left the SDA church.

Even during the 14 years I was an SDA, I could not bring myself to accept their state of the dead doctrine.

I believe when you die in Y'shua, your soul goes to be with Him and awaits His return when He will reuinte it with a resurrected, glofied body.

Y'shua's death on the Cross and Resurrection RESTORED that which Adam lost. When we accept Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour, something happens to our soul which makes it IMMORTAL. It is not inherently immortal but immortal ONLY because of Y'shua.

And there is so much in the B'rit Hadeshah (New Testament) to back this up.

Then let's see it.

Y'shua said those who believe in Him will NEVER die.

Think about that one for just a minute. Do you believe the wicked will be tormented in hell through the ceaseless ages of eternity? If so, then they will NEVER die either, right?

The wicked were never promised eternal life, but some people are insistent that they'll have it, in torment. It's still eternal life, no matter how you slice it.

Being resurrected in the blink of an eye means exactly that. You aren't going to know that your thoughts have perished since you won't HAVE any. To you it will feel like a split second.

People die all the time Lebesgue. I know you know this. Even the righteous ones.

Y'shua told the thief on the cross next to Him that accepted Him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

That one has been done to death in this forum and I'm too tired to go through it all again, but the punctuation is wrong in that verse. Otherwise the bible contradicts itself.

Sha'ul made the statement, "Absent from the boy and present with Christ".

If that verse were ever quoted for what it really says I think I'd faint.

Here's what it really says: 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Two verses before that it says if you are in the body, you are absent from the Lord. Do you think that's literal?

Read all the verses around it.

Y'shua GAVE us immoratality of our souls by His death on the Cross and Resurrection.

I cannot accept or agree with the SDA state of the dead doctrine and never could even when I was an SDA.

Perhaps I should have been vocal about it early on and gotten myself disfellowhipped rather than spending 14 miserable years in the SDA church?

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Cripes Lebesgue, you sound like someone that has trouble standing up for yourself, and from what I've seen of your posts, that just doesn't appear to be the case.

And yes, "forced" wasn't really a good word you used to describe your wife MAKING you go.

I don't do things I LIKE to do for a year, let alone doing something I'm "miserable" at for fourteen years.

STAND UP man. It feels good.

 

[Eila]

And Eila, if you had a dead child, and suddenly that child was standing in front of you with a message they said was from Jesus....do you think it'd be difficult to tell them to go and never come back? That's how satan works and we already know he'll impersonate, but how brilliant would it be to impersonate someone that we loved very much?

I would first wonder why Jesus would relay a message through a spirit of a dead child when the Holy Spirit lives in me. Also, I don't believe the spirit of a dead child would appear to give me a message anyway because Ecclesiastes contextually says that the dead do not know anything of things on this earth.

We are to test the spirits. 1 John 4 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." The Bible says that even if an angel from heaven comes to you and relates information to you if it does not agree with the Gospel - don't listen to it.

So should I run from a spirit? No. Jesus never did and the apostles didn't. To me running indicates that the evil spirit is more powerful than God who lives in you.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I would first wonder why Jesus would relay a message through a spirit of a dead child when the Holy Spirit lives in me. Also, I don't believe the spirit of a dead child would appear to give me a message anyway because Ecclesiastes contextually says that the dead do not know anything of things on this earth.

"says that the dead do not know anything of things on this earth". On this earth, or do not know ANYTHING?

Have you read some of the accounts of Mary appearing to people and giving them messages from Jesus? Do you believe that it really is her? Do you think these people are lying or that they really did see SOMETHING?

We are to test the spirits. 1 John 4 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." The Bible says that even if an angel from heaven comes to you and relates information to you if it does not agree with the Gospel - don't listen to it.

Spirits of a living human being (or their written words), otherwise we can't test them if we're asking them to go away.

So should I run from a spirit? No. Jesus never did and the apostles didn't. To me running indicates that the evil spirit is more powerful than God who lives in you.

I'll tell them to go away as they're looking at my backside running. Fair enough? I know they're not more powerful than God Eila, but I also know they're not FROM God either.

 

[Eila]

The immortality of the soul, a lie first told by Satan in the Garden is one of two identifying marks of a false religion.

It is interesting that you say that.

See Satan's statement

Genesis 3 " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman."

See God's statement:

Genesis 2 "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

SDA theology doesn't allow for spiritual death which would make Satan's statement true and God's statement false. God said they would die the day they ate the fruit and Satan said they wouldn't. According to SDA theology they didn't die the day they ate the fruit, but nearly 1000 years later.

 

[TrustAndObey]

The best way to tell satan to get behind you is to turn your back on him.

If I see any person that I know has died (aside from our Savior), I will not talk to them and "test" them Eila. They are not from God, period.

 

[TrustAndObey]

It is interesting that you say that.

See Satan's statement

Genesis 3 " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman."

See God's statement:

Genesis 2 "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

SDA theology doesn't allow for spiritual death which would make Satan's statement true and God's statement false. God said they would die the day they ate the fruit and Satan said they wouldn't. According to SDA theology they didn't die the day they ate the fruit, but nearly 1000 years later.

And it's these same spiritually dead people that will rise FIRST to meet Jesus in the sky, right? Isn't that what you've told me in the past?

What theology is that?

 

[Eila]

"says that the dead do not know anything of things on this earth". On this earth, or do not know ANYTHING?"

If you look at the verse in Eccl 9 in isolation you would say "anything", but if you look at the verse it context it is talking about things that happen under the sun.

"5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."

They will not have a share of what happens under the sun so why would they appear to me who lives under the sun?

Have you read some of the accounts of Mary appearing to people and giving them messages from Jesus? Do you believe that it really is her? Do you think these people are lying or that they really did see SOMETHING?

No, I haven't read much about accounts of Mary appearing and giving messages. I don't believe it is her because of what Ecclesiastes 9 says. I would assume these people did see something.

Spirits of a living human being (or their written words), otherwise we can't test them if we're asking them to go away.

Doesn't SDA theology say spirit equals breath or are you giving a different meaning here?

I'll tell them to go away as they're looking at my backside running. Fair enough? I know they're not more powerful than God Eila, but I also know they're not FROM God either.

I think we are looking at this from very different perspectives. That instance may work if you encounter a spirit appearing before you in your driveway, but if someone is possessed by a spirit they will need you to minister to them when the evil spirit leaves.

 

[Eila]

And it's these same spiritually dead people that will rise FIRST to meet Jesus in the sky, right? Isn't that what you've told me in the past?

Spiritually dead people would NOT meet Jesus in the sky because those who reside in death are lost.

What theology is that?

I have no idea. I've never heard of anyone saying or believing that before.

 

[TrustAndObey]

If you look at the verse in Eccl 9 in isolation you would say "anything", but if you look at the verse it context it is talking about things that happen under the sun.

"5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."

They will not have a share of what happens under the sun so why would they appear to me who lives under the sun?

The dead cannot praise God either though Eila. Can you imagine being in heaven and not being able to praise your God?

No, I haven't read much about accounts of Mary appearing and giving messages. I don't believe it is her because of what Ecclesiastes 9 says. I would assume these people did see something.

I think they saw something too (at least some of them), but for them to even LISTEN to the message is not what you categorized as testing the spirits. You can definitely test the spirit of a LIVING HUMAN BEING. You can test a dead person's written words or the accounts of their actions...but to stand in front of a dead person appearing to be alive is not what is meant by testing the spirit.

You'd have to dialogue with said dead person in order to test them, and we're not to talk to them period.

Doesn't SDA theology say spirit equals breath or are you giving a different meaning here?

Well, lol, I don't go around testing people's breath.

I think spirit means a lot more than breath. It's essence. Life force.

I think we are looking at this from very different perspectives. That instance may work if you encounter a spirit appearing before you in your driveway, but if someone is possessed by a spirit they will need you to minister to them when the evil spirit leaves.

Do you think an evil spirit could impersonate a dead person? Appear to you as someone you love to deceive you in some way?

In THAT instance, would you witness to them? Or would you know that they are dead and you should not talk to them at all?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Spiritually dead people would NOT meet Jesus in the sky because those who reside in death are lost.

Okay, so who are the "dead in Christ" that rise first to meet Him in the air?

 

[Eila]

The dead cannot praise God either though Eila. Can you imagine being in heaven and not being able to praise your God?

The spiritually dead cannot praise God.

I think they saw something too (at least some of them), but for them to even LISTEN to the message is not what you categorized as testing the spirits. You can definitely test the spirit of a LIVING HUMAN BEING.

I agree. You can test the spirit of a person living in their body as well as spirits like angels and evil spirits.

Do you think an evil spirit could impersonate a dead person? Appear to you as someone you love to deceive you in some way?

I don't know. If so it would be helpful to remember that even if an angel from heaven tells you something that goes against the Gospel to not believe it.

In THAT instance, would you witness to them? Or would you know that they are dead and you should not talk to them at all?

Witness to a spirit without a body? No. You can minister to someone after telling the evil spirit to leave a person's body. Spirits are more than people who are dead. Angels appeared to people in the Bible and conversed with people. Did not EGW have an angel or messenger appear to her? Should she not have talked with the spirit at all?

 

[TrustAndObey]

SDA theology doesn't allow for spiritual death which would make Satan's statement true and God's statement false. God said they would die the day they ate the fruit and Satan said they wouldn't. According to SDA theology they didn't die the day they ate the fruit, but nearly 1000 years later.

Adventists do believe in spiritual death, which wouldn't mean instantaneous death of the body at the same time.

However, I've talked to you several times in the past and you like to apply spiritual death to verses that are clearly talking about physical death.

Also Eila, I happen to know for a fact that you do not agree with Lebesgue on this subject either. You didn't mention it, but you don't believe the soul goes to heaven upon death either.

You believe it is the spirit that goes to God when we die, which is absolutely 100% scriptural. What you've never provided, even though I've asked several times, is scripture that says our spirits can think, walk, talk, etc after we die.

 

[Eila]

Okay, so who are the "dead in Christ" that rise first to meet Him in the air?

1 Thess 4 "13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until he coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words."



The dead in Christ are those referred to earlier in verse 14. They are the ones God will bring with Him when He comes back. They are the ones who have fallen asleep.