the changing speed of light. dad, this thread is for you

[FishFace]

I know I exist.

Prove it.

There was no billions of years ago for this universe.

Prove it.

Nothing actually say there are old ages, nothing at all.

Scientists do, using the techniques of radiometric data.

Now, if you have nothing substantial about core to ring light speed observations, and direction, why this thread is bogged down. We can't even proceed to the former state explanations, since you got so little for this state.

1: The core lights up
2: 8 months later, the ring lights up
3: The ring is some known amount of arcseconds wide in the sky.

Using these facts, and a known speed of light, we work out the distance to the supernova. Using these facts, and a higher speed of light, we work out that the distance is greater, such that the light would require longer to get to us.

If you claim a different answer, give us a good reason to believe your answer.

 

[NailsII]

Never seemed to stop some here from telling stories as if they know it all.

Knowledge is power, and some people with a little knowledge can believe they have a lot of power.

No? So you have, what, unlimited capacity for so called logical conclusions based on fragmentary evidence now??

I don't, and I didn't suggest I had.
But there is very little research that cannot be interpreted into meaningful conclusion by the greatest minds on earth.
And I dare suggest that what you describe as framentary evidence has less holes in it than a literalist view.

Someone pulled the wool over your eyes. That bears no resemblance to what the bible is.

Then please educate me. I have made my own mind up from what I have read (approx. 90% of the bible) - if I am wrong, then please show me where.

Fiction??? Tell us, how do you think you know what is fact or fiction in the bible??

Easy that.
Fiction - god, son of god, creation, flood, unicorn, adam & eve, garden of eden, every species on a small boat, prophesy, miracles, people living for 900+ years, faith healing, casting out demons, resurections (including the saints).... and that's off the top of my head.
Fact - rape, murder, genocide, slavery, justification of slavery, lies, more rape, murder and genocide, brutal enforcement of law, repression of women and a repressed people looking for a leader with supernatural powers (twice).

No, it is because that little method only can subscribe to the fishbowl. I have other subscriptions, that deal in things beyond what that can do.

Is it just me, or does this make no sense at all?

Blowing up life on earth is such a plus, I guess? As for 'space age', that is more like caveman age, compared to universal explorations that we would have done long long long ago, if man wasn't deceived, and listened to the father of lies, that hates men.

Oh dear.
You do realise that comments like this really do put the 'D' in Delusion?

Nope. I look at the whole package. The savior and new heavens, and eternal life are things that run throughout the book. Godless science is hardly a drop in it's bucket.

Can you actually produce any research in which god is an integral part of its workings?

There was no billions of years ago for this universe. The very fact you read it that way yells out that you base it on the present state realities. Projecting them in your head to infinity and beyond.
Nothing actually say there are old ages, nothing at all.

OK Buzz, you are a toy.
You're not an action figure, you're a child's plaything.
(My daughters favourite film).

 

[dad]

1: The core lights up
2: 8 months later, the ring lights up
3: The ring is some known amount of arcseconds wide in the sky.

Using these facts, and a known speed of light, we work out the distance to the supernova. Using these facts, and a higher speed of light, we work out that the distance is greater, such that the light would require longer to get to us.

If you claim a different answer, give us a good reason to believe your answer.

But before the core lights up, the rings are already there, they claim. Long before Egypt came to be, or observations of science took place.

They actually don't really know how the rings got there.

Are they time rings? Prophesy rings? Creation rings? or rings that are part of a sign in the heavens?? Who knows?

Now, we have a 'core', and it lights up, to our view. I think it is about 6.6 parts of a year later, the rings light up. It is assumed that the light is the same speed, and that assumption is then used to draw an imaginary triangle. The length of the crucial core to ring line of that triangle is based on that assumption. No confirmation seems to exist to support it. If, therefore, light were a different speed, from ring to core, that line would be vastly different in length. That could bring it closer, or further.

The distance, therefore depends on the present speed of light, rather than confirms it. Since a different universe state could see a different light, and speed, it seems you are back to needing a same state past. No?? Do you have one??? No, that you don't have! So, how can you give meaning to the event??

On a lighter note, I noticed the latest picture of the rings, and core almost look a bit like a face. I will post it, and grab a face from the news, so you see what I mean.

 

[dad]

Easy that.
Fiction - god, son of god, creation, flood, unicorn, adam & eve, garden of eden, every species on a small boat, prophesy, miracles, people living for 900+ years, faith healing, casting out demons, resurections (including the saints).... and that's off the top of my head.

No, most of those things were witnessed, observed by man. You denying them is like denying last week. Possibly excepting the unicorn.

Fact - rape, murder, genocide, slavery, justification of slavery, lies, more rape, murder and genocide, brutal enforcement of law, repression of women and a repressed people looking for a leader with supernatural powers (twice).

Who did Jesus enslave, and rape?? The brutal enforcement, like killing the monsters than kill other people, and kids, is great. Any society that lets them run amok is doomed, and wicked.

Oh dear.
You do realise that comments like this really do put the 'D' in Delusion?

No, I don't. Adam was created to have dominion, and it is reasonable to asume we, like Jesus did, could have controlled the elements, and etc.

Can you actually produce any research in which god is an integral part of its workings?

Can you actually read the research in the bible, or are you bound and restricted to paganized and god devoid lobotomized knowledge?

OK Buzz, you are a toy.
You're not an action figure, you're a child's plaything.
(My daughters favourite film).

Now, if you start to realize man's notions can't fly to infinity and beyond either, you will be making progress.

 

[NailsII]

No, most of those things were witnessed, observed by man. You denying them is like denying last week. Possibly excepting the unicorn.

Normally I would agree with you, if there was supporting evidence or independant verification. There were plenty of people around at the time in other countries and they witnessed next to nothing.
Also, the 'great flood' happened around the time that egypt was building big - another contradiction.
The population numbers make such a senario totally unworkable.

Who did Jesus enslave, and rape?? The brutal enforcement, like killing the monsters than kill other people, and kids, is great. Any society that lets them run amok is doomed, and wicked.

History has shown us that jesus has enslaved millions by the interpretation of his teachings. But that was not what I was refering to.

No, I don't. Adam was created to have dominion, and it is reasonable to asume we, like Jesus did, could have controlled the elements, and etc.

To infinity and beyond, eh. Nice.

Can you actually read the research in the bible, or are you bound and restricted to paganized and god devoid lobotomized knowledge?

At least you admit I have some knowledge, thank you.
I would rather have a bottle in fornt of me than a fontal lobotomy.....

Now, if you start to realize man's notions can't fly to infinity and beyond either, you will be making progress.

But yours can?

 

[FishFace]

But before the core lights up, the rings are already there, they claim. Long before Egypt came to be, or observations of science took place.

They actually don't really know how the rings got there.

Are they time rings? Prophesy rings? Creation rings? or rings that are part of a sign in the heavens?? Who knows?

More importantly - who cares! They're rings associated with the supernova, that's all we know and all we need to know.

Now, we have a 'core', and it lights up, to our view. I think it is about 6.6 parts of a year later, the rings light up. It is assumed that the light is the same speed, and that assumption is then used to draw an imaginary triangle. The length of the crucial core to ring line of that triangle is based on that assumption. No confirmation seems to exist to support it. If, therefore, light were a different speed, from ring to core, that line would be vastly different in length. That could bring it closer, or further.

Exactly. If light were faster, then that line going from the core to the ring would be correspondingly larger. But we know exactly what size the ring appears to be.
Now, tell me - if I have a balloon, and I blow it up, what do I have to do to make look the same size to you? I have to move further away. So if you assume the speed of light is higher, then the supernova must be further away than scientists think, so it would have taken longer for the light to get here, so the universe is still old.

The distance, therefore depends on the present speed of light, rather than confirms it. Since a different universe state could see a different light, and speed, it seems you are back to needing a same state past.

Go ahead, plug in a different speed of light, do the calculations, and see what happens. We've told you what happens enough times already, but somehow, you don't understand.

 

[NailsII]

Possibly excepting the unicorn.

The unicorn is a mythical creature, that much is certain.
There is no evidence that one actually existed, and i am glad that you appear to support this.
So, did this small fact get overlooked by the great proof-reader in the sky?

 

[dad]

Normally I would agree with you, if there was supporting evidence or independant verification. There were plenty of people around at the time in other countries and they witnessed next to nothing.

No, there weren't. Your dates are wrong.

Also, the 'great flood' happened around the time that egypt was building big - another contradiction.

Not at all, I would think Egypt came after the flood. Fortunate for them, it was before the split, so slapping together huge stones was no problem.

The population numbers make such a senario totally unworkable.

Not at all, with hyper population of the day, and no big population needed to move big things, and some angelic help, it was a piece of cake. The sons of God married the daughters of men, up till the time of the split, as I understand it. That means that Egyptian history, where they attribute building of the big pyramid, and sphinx to a watcher likely has merit.

History has shown us that jesus has enslaved millions by the interpretation of his teachings. But that was not what I was refering to.
To infinity and beyond, eh. Nice.

Nonsense, He set millions free.

At least you admit I have some knowledge, thank you.
I would rather have a bottle in fornt of me than a fontal lobotomy.....

Well, the truth need not be butchered and lobotomized. Maybe with that, you could do with less bottle.

But yours can?

Not by science it can't, any more than yours can. But the bible does cover eternity pretty good, as well as the creation, and early history of man, outlining many clear differences.

 

[dad]

The unicorn is a mythical creature, that much is certain.
There is no evidence that one actually existed, and i am glad that you appear to support this.
So, did this small fact get overlooked by the great proof-reader in the sky?

Well, I was trying to go along with your ignorance based claims, so as to avoid focusing on the unicorn. Personally, I see no reason why unicorns could not exist in the heavenly state.

 

[dad]

More importantly - who cares! They're rings associated with the supernova, that's all we know and all we need to know.

No, they are not!!! They are rings that are around the SN, not associated with it. Not if they were there before the event! That means we need to ask why they are there! You have no idea.

Exactly. If light were faster, then that line going from the core to the ring would be correspondingly larger. But we know exactly what size the ring appears to be.

You do? Can you support that, let's have a look. (unless you are referring to assuming light takes so long to get from core to ring)

Now, tell me - if I have a balloon, and I blow it up, what do I have to do to make look the same size to you? I have to move further away. So if you assume the speed of light is higher, then the supernova must be further away than scientists think, so it would have taken longer for the light to get here, so the universe is still old.

No, because getting here is no challenge at all. As I said, that could be done from billions of present ly away in days! The only problem I could see is assuming that the ring light is bound to the same speed as regular starlight.

Go ahead, plug in a different speed of light, do the calculations, and see what happens. We've told you what happens enough times already, but somehow, you don't understand.

Well, let's plug in, for example, say, a speed of 1/4 the present light speed. Let's ask if we can also have the rings light up for reasons other than something from the core only. Where would that leave us?? Further out?? No problem, if billions of light years is no problem, this thing could never be.

Basically, the magic rings must be a sign meant to be seen today. No one even knew the rings were there before the show started, but it is claimed they were. That means that time can and was transcended, most likely, for the event are itself, at least.

Starlight in general all came to exist as PO light, if the universe is homogeneous. It's former speed doesn't much matter now.
The only issue, as I see it, is how the events like this get carried along, so as to arrive at earth at the appointed time.

When a universe state changes, and light, and space, and matter, and laws, however, that is mere details.

 

[NailsII]

No, there weren't. Your dates are wrong.

And you have supporting evidence?

Not at all, I would think Egypt came after the flood. Fortunate for them, it was before the split, so slapping together huge stones was no problem.

So, within 469 years after the flood (source: Genesis 11:10-26, genesis 12:4, genesis 12:10) Egypt had grown from one family into an empire that was powerful enough to enslave the Isrealites, build pyramids for countless generations of leaders and the magnificent architecture we see today?
You're having a laugh.

Not at all, with hyper population of the day, and no big population needed to move big things, and some angelic help, it was a piece of cake. The sons of God married the daughters of men, up till the time of the split, as I understand it. That means that Egyptian history, where they attribute building of the big pyramid, and sphinx to a watcher likely has merit.

That is another capital 'D' for delusion I'm afraid.
Are you forgetting that the ancient Egyptians had their own calanders, written records that predate the bible and even predate genesis?

Nonsense, He set millions free.

Free from rationality, if nothing else.
He couldn't even free his people from the Romans, I wonder why that is.

Well, the truth need not be butchered and lobotomized. Maybe with that, you could do with less bottle

I'll stick to a bottle if you don't mind.

Not by science it can't, any more than yours can. But the bible does cover eternity pretty good, as well as the creation, and early history of man, outlining many clear differences.

Eternity, don't you mean circa six thousand years?

Well, I was trying to go along with your ignorance based claims, so as to avoid focusing on the unicorn. Personally, I see no reason why unicorns could not exist in the heavenly state.

I think the word you were looking for is evidence-based.
(or would that sound better as "I think the word you are looking for is Space Ranger....")
That's cool, beacuse there is no evidence that they ever existed on earth.
Mind you, there is no evidence for a heavenly state either, so it is either pure lies, heresay or delusion.
Or just plain ignorance.

"Hey Hamm look, I'm Picasso"

"Err, I don't get it".

"You uncultured swine!"

 

[FishFace]

You do? Can you support that, let's have a look. (unless you are referring to assuming light takes so long to get from core to ring)

Of course we know how large it appears to be - just look in the sky and measure it! Of course, you probably want to look with a telescope, but you can still determine its apparent size.

No, because getting here is no challenge at all. As I said, that could be done from billions of present ly away in days!

So you're saying that the speed of light from the core traveled faster than the speed of the light from the ring? Why should I believe you? Sounds like you're just making it up.

Well, let's plug in, for example, say, a speed of 1/4 the present light speed.

Go ahead and do that! What, you want us to work out the answer for you?

 

[dad]

And you have supporting evidence?

Of course, you can't support the dates, so they are unsupported. Notice you didn't even try.

So, within 469 years after the flood (source: Genesis 11:10-26, genesis 12:4, genesis 12:10) Egypt had grown from one family into an empire that was powerful enough to enslave the Isrealites, build pyramids for countless generations of leaders and the magnificent architecture we see today?
You're having a laugh.

Who said that they were slaves before the big pyramid was built?? Egypt went on a long time.

That is another capital 'D' for delusion I'm afraid.
Are you forgetting that the ancient Egyptians had their own calanders, written records that predate the bible and even predate genesis?

No, I am not forgetting the unreliable for dates so called calendars. In case you never looked into them in detail, maybe you should. You will realize that the dates are unsupported.

Free from rationality, if nothing else.
He couldn't even free his people from the Romans, I wonder why that is.

Of course He could have. That would have entailed merely, literally lifting His little finger. If you recall that was the signal for angels to immediately step in. Not just Rome, but human history would have ended there. Rome would hardly be 5 minutes work.

I'll stick to a bottle if you don't mind.
Eternity, don't you mean circa six thousand years?

No, forever is longer than several thousand years, for your information.

I think the word you were looking for is evidence-based.
(or would that sound better as "I think the word you are looking for is Space Ranger....")
That's cool, beacuse there is no evidence that they ever existed on earth.

No, or that they did not. Maybe the angels liked to ride them down in the days before Babel, when they married the daughters of men? Jesus apparently will use flying horses. War horses of heaven. Seen any of those around, either??

Mind you, there is no evidence for a heavenly state either, so it is either pure lies, heresay or delusion.
Or just plain ignorance.

The evidence abounds, and includes people being healed, and raising from the dead. Jesus healed em by the tens of thousands, multitudes and multitudes. The Pharisees never even questioned it, they simply asked if the devil gave Him power for the miracles.

 

[dad]

Of course we know how large it appears to be - just look in the sky and measure it! Of course, you probably want to look with a telescope, but you can still determine its apparent size.

Say what??? The size of the SN? You must be kidding.

So you're saying that the speed of light from the core traveled faster than the speed of the light from the ring? Why should I believe you? Sounds like you're just making it up.

No, I am not saying that the former light there traveled at any particular speed. But are you suggesting light traveled from the ring to the core now?? What I am suggesting is that the universe, and light was different. That means we can't limit the speed to present speeds.

Go ahead and do that! What, you want us to work out the answer for you?

If you think detailing an example matters, be my guest. Careful, remember Thau's Big Dipper.

 

[FishFace]

Say what??? The size of the SN? You must be kidding.

No, its apparent size i.e. the angle it subtends in the sky from the point of view of an earth-bound observer.

No, I am not saying that the former light there traveled at any particular speed. But are you suggesting light traveled from the ring to the core now?? What I am suggesting is that the universe, and light was different. That means we can't limit the speed to present speeds.

If you're not going to make any other suggestion, then I'm going to go right ahead and "limit" the speed of light to present speeds because, in spite of being asked (repeatedly) you never gave anyone a good reason to believe the speed of light was ever different.
Well, yes, the light does travel from the ring to the core, since it will be omnidirectional. However, I meant the speed of the light heading towards earth.
There is a problem with this though. If the speed of light from the core were so much faster, how come the time difference is only 8 months? See, you need to actually do some work here.

If you think detailing an example matters, be my guest.

You made up the numbers, you work it out. Until then, my bet is you're just picking random numbers out of the air and hoping they'll work. Not going to help you, son - pick some numbers - give us a reason to believe those are the right ones, then work out what that implies.

Unless you do that, you've not got a snowball's chance in a supernova.

 

[NailsII]

Of course, you can't support the dates, so they are unsupported. Notice you didn't even try.

The burden of proof lies at your feet, sir.
Time is something most of us understand pretty well, until you try and squeeze everything into 6,000 years and it becomes a little cloudy.
That is why you have prolems with the speed of light, and why you really believe that that the whole world was re-populated 4,000 years ago.
It doesn't make sense and it doesn't add up - the human population could not have expanded so quickly.
This is accepted wisdom from physics, archaeology and biology - so provide evidence to the contrary please.

Who said that they were slaves before the big pyramid was built?? Egypt went on a long time.

Obviously the pyramids were not built until around 2500BC but oh wait - is that after the flood or before it?
We have evidence of Egyptian hieroglyphs dating to around 3,000 BC, amazing how they made a language, all dies out and then when the land was repopulated they started using the same language again.
Made-up time and historical time seem to conflict, it's all so confusing. Maybe you could help me out here.

No, I am not forgetting the unreliable for dates so called calendars. In case you never looked into them in detail, maybe you should. You will realize that the dates are unsupported.

Oh yeah, silly me.
Only biblical time is correct.
Sorry.

Of course He could have. That would have entailed merely, literally lifting His little finger. If you recall that was the signal for angels to immediately step in. Not just Rome, but human history would have ended there. Rome would hardly be 5 minutes work.

So why didn't he?.

No, forever is longer than several thousand years, for your information.

Infinity, perhaps?
Or even the length of time it takes light to reach earth from a distant supernova....

No, or that they did not. Maybe the angels liked to ride them down in the days before Babel, when they married the daughters of men? Jesus apparently will use flying horses. War horses of heaven. Seen any of those around, either??

Maybe.
Or maybe not.
Do you have supporting evidence?
Then I shall dismiss your argument without evidence.

The evidence abounds, and includes people being healed, and raising from the dead. Jesus healed em by the tens of thousands, multitudes and multitudes. The Pharisees never even questioned it, they simply asked if the devil gave Him power for the miracles.

Yeah, and no-one else thought to write it down, it was so important.

 

[dad]

No, its apparent size i.e. the angle it subtends in the sky from the point of view of an earth-bound observer.

Well, does it not still DEPEND on the time light took to get to the ring?
"astronomers measured the time it took for the energy to travel from the star to the primary ring that is around the star. (The ring is quite large, much larger than the "ring" that Neptune makes in its orbit around our own sun.) From this, astronomers determined the actual "height" of the ring from the star."
http://www.outersystem.us/creationism/ancientproof/SN1987A.html

If you're not going to make any other suggestion, then I'm going to go right ahead and "limit" the speed of light to present speeds because, in spite of being asked (repeatedly) you never gave anyone a good reason to believe the speed of light was ever different.

You go ahead and limit gravity, and time if you wish! Not sure who you think will obey the little edict, however.
I would suggest that the assumption that gives the size of one side of the triangle, namely, the time it took for the ring to get light, is in need of support.
Even if you ever could get that, which apparently looks unlikely, the PO state of the SN light would be no great shocker to me! But you ain't there yet, by a long shot.
See, the ring to core line on the triangle??? All that is used to come up with it is the assumed speed of light.

Well, yes, the light does travel from the ring to the core, since it will be omnidirectional. However, I meant the speed of the light heading towards earth.
There is a problem with this though. If the speed of light from the core were so much faster, how come the time difference is only 8 months? See, you need to actually do some work here.

If, indeed. One reason I would be interested to find out if the light really did travel at present light speed there. If not, why, again, I would have to review the claims of science about a homogeneous universe.
Either way. the present light speed is no limit! Because it happened before there was present light.

You made up the numbers, you work it out. Until then, my bet is you're just picking random numbers out of the air and hoping they'll work. Not going to help you, son - pick some numbers - give us a reason to believe those are the right ones, then work out what that implies.

Doesn't matter, use any ones you like. Point is, today's limits were not in place. Good luck with that.

 

[Danyc]

Dad, do you actually understand what you're talking about, know what these 'forever-state equations' entail, what was going on with the speed of light?

Or are you just saying that scientists don't really know for sure?

Because if it's the second one, then this is a major waste of time.

 

[dad]

The burden of proof lies at your feet, sir.
Time is something most of us understand pretty well, until you try and squeeze everything into 6,000 years and it becomes a little cloudy.

The burden of proof for a same state past, since you assume one, and claim one as part of a so called science case, rests solely on you, obviously.
What looks cloudy from that untenable position is your problem. It looks clear from my perspective.

That is why you have prolems with the speed of light, and why you really believe that that the whole world was re-populated 4,000 years ago.

I have no problems at all with the present state of the universe, and speed and state of light. None. Yes, the world was repopulated.

It doesn't make sense and it doesn't add up - the human population could not have expanded so quickly.

Of course it did, no sweat, in fact nothing else does make sense.

What, you kidding???

This is accepted wisdom from physics, archaeology and biology - so provide evidence to the contrary please.

Physics is PO, archeology can't support old ages, and resorts to same state past decay 'dating', and biology is PO life process based. They can't help you, or hurt me.

Obviously the pyramids were not built until around 2500BC but oh wait - is that after the flood or before it?

After, I would think. If the flood was a bit over 4500 years ago, that means right around that time.

We have evidence of Egyptian hieroglyphs dating to around 3,000 BC,

Prove it, your dates are wrong.

amazing how they made a language, all dies out and then when the land was repopulated they started using the same language again.

Egypt is after the flood, your twistings are unneeded.

Oh yeah, silly me.
Only biblical time is correct.
Sorry.

Don't blame me! Your wonky myths just don't cut the mustard.

So why didn't he?.

So you would have the chance to escape your fate. Take it.

Infinity, perhaps?
Or even the length of time it takes light to reach earth from a distant supernova....

The time it takes and the time it took are not the same, unless you prove a same state past, obviously. The more I consider the SN, the more it appears like a sign in the heavens. A sign that was sent on it's merry little way, so as to arrive here at the appointed time.

Maybe.
Or maybe not.
Do you have supporting evidence?
Then I shall dismiss your argument without evidence.

You can't dismiss things involving the heavenly realm, all you can do is be ignorant of them, or deny them.


Ps 22:21 - Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.




Where does God generally hear us from? heaven! So I assume THAT is where the unicorns are. Evidence seems to show they sure ain't here now.

Yeah, and no-one else thought to write it down, it was so important.

Well, consider where it happened, and to whom. It was in Israel. The bible covers that pretty good. What do you expect, Chinese records??

 

[dad]

Dad, do you actually understand what you're talking about, know what these 'forever-state equations' entail, what was going on with the speed of light?

It was a universe state and light that allowed light to boogie around the universe at speeds unbounded by what we know from our present light. What else do we need to know???? You need to know that this universe state was the same! That is a sure thing, but you don't! Therefore all claims based on that flimsy notion are meaningless. Worthless. Useless. Bogus.

Or are you just saying that scientists don't really know for sure?

They haven't the tiniest clue!! They merely waste our time, and spew out bible opposing concepts, based on nothing, that can only truly, and specifically, and rightly be called myth.