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Science and Religion: Non-Overlapping Magisteria

SpyridonOCA

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Science and Religion: Non-Overlapping Magisteria
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html

The primary difference between Gould and Dawkins is that while Dawkins is an atheist authoritarian, insistent upon exporting his brand of radical secularism to the world, Gould understands that science and religion are two non-overlapping magisteria that do not conflict. This is an article for all the atheists of this forum who believe that science disproves Christianity.
 

Baggins

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Read it before.

The whole problem with Gould's thesis is that religion keeps trying to interfere in science so the whole idea is obviously completely bogus.

religion cannot keep its sticky little fingers from meddling outside of its magisteria so the whole idea is fanciful.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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I'd say that religion and science are indeed very much overlapping magisteria. Both are attempts at explaining physical reality - the fact that one of them has essentially lost the battle of ideas, so to speak, does not change the fact that there is a battle.
 
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Patashu

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Religion claims come in two types; those that can be tested by science and those that can't. The latter, while not overlapping with science, are thus completely untestable in any manner and nothing more than nice ideas to think about. And if they rely on the first kinds of claims to be proven then you're overlapping with science again.
 
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TeddyKGB

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The primary difference between Gould and Dawkins is that while Dawkins is an atheist authoritarian, insistent upon exporting his brand of radical secularism to the world, Gould understands that science and religion are two non-overlapping magisteria that do not conflict. This is an article for all the atheists of this forum who believe that science disproves Christianity.
Gould was naive, and what you say about Dawkins is borderline libel.
 
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uberd00b

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I'd say that religion and science are indeed very much overlapping magisteria. Both are attempts at explaining physical reality - the fact that one of them has essentially lost the battle of ideas, so to speak, does not change the fact that there is a battle.
I agree. Things that exist can be studied. Science is the study of the reality we live in.

Things that don't exist have some common characteristics, the inability to be studied scientifically being one (Being invisible, intangible and undemonstrable being others)

The idea that science would not be able to examine religion does not seem to be true. Or it seems to be special pleading to exempt religion from the same qualifiers that we apply to everything else.
 
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FishFace

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Science and Religion: Non-Overlapping Magisteria
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html

The primary difference between Gould and Dawkins is that while Dawkins is an atheist authoritarian, insistent upon exporting his brand of radical secularism to the world, Gould understands that science and religion are two non-overlapping magisteria that do not conflict. This is an article for all the atheists of this forum who believe that science disproves Christianity.

Haha, we had a discussion about this very topic last night.

The point I was arguing was that the "magisterium" of science is objective reality.
Basically, science addresses claims about facts relating to the observable world, at the very least. So early on in the discussion (before we got to this particular point) was the question of what exactly constitutes science - e.g. whether history was science, whether aesthetics, mathematics and morality could be sciences.

The prevailing opinion was that mathematics wasn't science because it wasn't empirical, that aesthetics could be performed scientifically, and that normative morality couldn't be performed scientifically because normativity seems to be almost a metaphysical property.

The key ingredients we found for science were the structure of hypothesis - experiment and Ockham's razor. This methodology applies to anything that we can ever possibly construct an experiment for - so the magisterium of science already includes any single fact you want to claim about the observable world, because there will always be a possible experiment, even if we couldn't perform it in practice. For example, we could develop hypotheses relating to the life of Jesus them and test them against records and archaeological evidence. Intercessory prayer is also an obvious one

This was the point of someone else - that even if you want to say that the claim "God exists" is in some other domain of claims, all of these things that you will want to claim fall well within the remit of scientific method.

My point was that formulations of Ockham's razor - a principle which seems (my mind was changed on this by the discussion) to be a necessary axiom for doing just about anything, and is impossible to justify on any other grounds - don't admit of any distinction between science and religion. They simply say that multiplying entities beyond necessity is generally bad. This is a claim that applies to all of objective reality - not just observable reality.

In other words, the same fundamental principle of science applies equally to what Gould wants to separate into two completely non-overlapping domains. The problem is that you can't just go and change that principle because it would be self-contradictory; a razor which made an exception for certain claims of religion violates itself by being more complicated than necessary and besides, the whole point of Ockham's razor is that it is intuitive - I don't see it as intuitive that certain claims shouldn't be subjected to it for no apparent reason.

This is entirely separate from the very obvious overlap in Creationist sects, and is much more problematic, I feel.
 
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Loudmouth

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Science and Religion: Non-Overlapping Magisteria
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html

The primary difference between Gould and Dawkins is that while Dawkins is an atheist authoritarian, insistent upon exporting his brand of radical secularism to the world, Gould understands that science and religion are two non-overlapping magisteria that do not conflict. This is an article for all the atheists of this forum who believe that science disproves Christianity.

I approached this subject in my thread Why Can't Science Explain Everything?

My conclusion is that science is an attempt to explain everything. If theologies want to put themselves in that realm then they can do so, but they run the risk of being falsified by science. In fact, theologies have put themselves in that realm in the past and have been falsified. Science dominates the realm of physical reality not because God is untestable but because every testable god has been falsified. Theologies are superfluous to science.
 
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Quantic

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... Gould understands that science and religion are two non-overlapping magisteria that do not conflict

This has already been said, but these "magisteria" do frequently overlap. This isn't the fault of science, but of religion. If a religion makes a claim about the world then the claim can be tested.

I think that it's too bad that Gould tried to play nice with religion; his ideas don't get a return in kind. Religions had better steer clear of claims about the world or risk being found wrong. (What religious claims about the world have been shown correct?)
 
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SpyridonOCA

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What religious claims about the world have been shown correct?

The resurrection of Jesus, the central event of the Christian faith, is a historical fact. To say otherwise one would need to ignore the preponderence of evidence and the usual standards for evaluating ancient history.
"Can a Scientist Believe in the Resurrection?" http://www.jamesgregory.org/tom_wright.php



What separates N.T. Wright from his opponents is that while Wright provides facts and evidence, Marcus Borg appeals to personal feelings, presuppositions, strawmen, and anecdotes.
 
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This is an article for all the atheists of this forum who believe that science disproves Christianity.

Forget what Atheists think or what science can prove or disprove........
can you or anyone put ANYTHING forward that would PROVE Christianity?
or does Christianity contain as much truth as me saying, I am going to be reincarnated as a grasshopper?
which is a big fat NONE.

Send me 1 Dollar and I will give you odds of 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 to 1, that there is no God,
you prove there is and I will pay up, come even close and I will pay up.

But you don't need proof, do you? you have your faith.
 
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The resurrection of Jesus, the central event of the Christian faith, is a historical fact. To say otherwise one would need to ignore the preponderence of evidence and the usual standards for evaluating ancient history.
"Can a Scientist Believe in the Resurrection?" http://www.jamesgregory.org/tom_wright.php

What separates N.T. Wright from his opponents is that while Wright provides facts and evidence, Marcus Borg appeals to personal feelings, presuppositions, strawmen, and anecdotes.

It is obvious that you people do not understand the meaning of the word EVIDENCE,
hearsay is NOT EVIDENCE, reading it in a book is NOT EVIDENCE,
just because lots of people believe it, is NOT EVIDENCE, saying it over and over, is NOT EVIDENCE,
getting well respected people to say it, is NOT EVIDENCE, it might be true, is NOT EVIDENCE.

EVIDENCE requires that you furnish PROOF.
 
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GoodNewsJim

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Forget what Atheists think or what science can prove or disprove........
can you or anyone put ANYTHING forward that would PROVE Christianity?

The Bible has prophecy. 700 years before Jesus lived, he was predicted in Isaiah 53 among dozens of other places.

There are thousands of prophecies in the Bible and they all came true, or they're meant for the end of the age.

Prophecies are pretty solid proof.

I don't want your money though.
 
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FishFace

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The resurrection of Jesus, the central event of the Christian faith, is a historical fact. To say otherwise one would need to ignore the preponderence of evidence and the usual standards for evaluating ancient history.
"Can a Scientist Believe in the Resurrection?" http://www.jamesgregory.org/tom_wright.php

What separates N.T. Wright from his opponents is that while Wright provides facts and evidence, Marcus Borg appeals to personal feelings, presuppositions, strawmen, and anecdotes.

So I guess you've answered the title of your topic there with a rather loud affirmative.

Anyway. So, the lecture, as one might expect, starts off with a bit of background cushioning. There are issues there, but not really important.

The first meat seems to come with the talk of analogies, namely, that no matter how many examples of resurrection not happening we have, that's not enough to rule out some other specific purported instance.
And of course this is correct. What Wright fails to mention is that, although they don't rule out such a thing, they do weigh heavily against it. For example, we know that it is possible for people to die and be buried. So if I told you that someone had died, you may well believe me. I could be lying through my teeth, but normal people would nonetheless probably trust me if I were a good liar.
If I told them that someone had been resurrected, chances are - unless they're a credulous fool - they'd tell me to pull the other one. Already we see that more evidence is required for something that we've never had any other confirmed instances of.

Skipping along a bit, there's some more with the hypothetical conversation of an early Christian with his peers. This sort of ignores the fact that A) just because it is probably pretty unlikely for any one group of nutters to get their beliefs heard doesn't mean some people can't get theirs out and B) that Jesus already had quite a big fan-base, if we're assuming that he existed. (I mean, it could just have been Paul having a hallucination on the road to Damascus.) 12 disciples, plus people who'd supposedly been healed, or have heard of healings - well, that's a pretty good start. Get some visions going down, a good martyrdom, doesn't sound quite so implausible.

On the discrepancies in the accounts of Easter Morning, well, they certainly aren't indications that "something remarkable happened." Nor, of course, do they rule anything out, but they make for a shakier case and, when you're dealing with a resurrectionas watertight a case as you can get is pretty handy.

Wright makes a good case for the Gospels being early accounts of the resurrection, but that doesn't establish them as being close to the supposed event. In light of his argument, they are presumably early in the course of ressurection-thinking, but that could have come much later.
Again, if Paul got things started (whether in reference to a real Jesus, or having hallucinated about someone made up) then resurrection accounts starting shortly thereafter could still exhibit these features.

The problem is that things being "remarkable" or "curious" isn't enough. The argument for something so extraordinary need to be doubly extraordinary, and they're not.

EDIT: A reply to my post, rather than going off your own topic, would also be appreciated.
 
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SpyridonOCA

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It is obvious that you people do not understand the meaning of the word EVIDENCE,
hearsay is NOT EVIDENCE, reading it in a book is NOT EVIDENCE,
just because lots of people believe it, is NOT EVIDENCE, saying it over and over, is NOT EVIDENCE,
getting well respected people to say it, is NOT EVIDENCE, it might be true, is NOT EVIDENCE.

EVIDENCE requires that you furnish PROOF.

As a historian, Wright provides the same kind of historical proof that you might be looking for.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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The Bible has prophecy. 700 years before Jesus lived, he was predicted in Isaiah 53 among dozens of other places.

There are thousands of prophecies in the Bible and they all came true, or they're meant for the end of the age.

Prophecies are pretty solid proof.

I don't want your money though.
Prophecies mentioned only in the same book that recorded their eventual fulfillment aren't that convincing.
 
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FishFace

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Haha, we had a discussion about this very topic last night.

The point I was arguing was that the "magisterium" of science is objective reality.
Basically, science addresses claims about facts relating to the observable world, at the very least. So early on in the discussion (before we got to this particular point) was the question of what exactly constitutes science - e.g. whether history was science, whether aesthetics, mathematics and morality could be sciences.

The prevailing opinion was that mathematics wasn't science because it wasn't empirical, that aesthetics could be performed scientifically, and that normative morality couldn't be performed scientifically because normativity seems to be almost a metaphysical property.

The key ingredients we found for science were the structure of hypothesis - experiment and Ockham's razor. This methodology applies to anything that we can ever possibly construct an experiment for - so the magisterium of science already includes any single fact you want to claim about the observable world, because there will always be a possible experiment, even if we couldn't perform it in practice. For example, we could develop hypotheses relating to the life of Jesus them and test them against records and archaeological evidence. Intercessory prayer is also an obvious one

This was the point of someone else - that even if you want to say that the claim "God exists" is in some other domain of claims, all of these things that you will want to claim fall well within the remit of scientific method.

My point was that formulations of Ockham's razor - a principle which seems (my mind was changed on this by the discussion) to be a necessary axiom for doing just about anything, and is impossible to justify on any other grounds - don't admit of any distinction between science and religion. They simply say that multiplying entities beyond necessity is generally bad. This is a claim that applies to all of objective reality - not just observable reality.

In other words, the same fundamental principle of science applies equally to what Gould wants to separate into two completely non-overlapping domains. The problem is that you can't just go and change that principle because it would be self-contradictory; a razor which made an exception for certain claims of religion violates itself by being more complicated than necessary and besides, the whole point of Ockham's razor is that it is intuitive - I don't see it as intuitive that certain claims shouldn't be subjected to it for no apparent reason.

This is entirely separate from the very obvious overlap in Creationist sects, and is much more problematic, I feel.

Not interested, Spyridon?
 
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Quantic

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The resurrection of Jesus, the central event of the Christian faith, is a historical fact. To say otherwise one would need to ignore the preponderence of evidence and the usual standards for evaluating ancient history.
"Can a Scientist Believe in the Resurrection?" http://www.jamesgregory.org/tom_wright.php

What separates N.T. Wright from his opponents is that while Wright provides facts and evidence, Marcus Borg appeals to personal feelings, presuppositions, strawmen, and anecdotes.

I'm sorry, but events listed in a book are not facts. What is this evidence for the resurrection? I'm aware of how historical accounts are handled. It would be nice to have many independent accounts of such a thing happening.

If I read in a book that you were a murderer, is that a fact? The book gives lots of details so should you be arrested on suspicion of murder? No, you shouldn't. Facts are empirical, not words in a book.
 
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Skaloop

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Science and religion are certainly overlapping. Science may not be able to address the question of some generic supernatural being called a god, but it can address the specifically described God of Christianity.

There are plenty of ways to see whether God as described in the Bible is an accurate description. Do nuns have a better survival rate from cancer? Do devout Christians suffer from fewer hardships? Do non-Christians exhibit greater suffering? All studies into this show that no, they do not. The only "advantage" I have seen, demonstrated in studies, from being religious is a longer life. But this applies to followers of any religion, which points away from the specific God of the Bible, and instead to the community of religion of any sort.

Science can indeed study the God hypothesis by examining the things that should be expected if He were real. Successful prayer, better morality, fewer hardships, greater happiness. Yet none of these are found. Rather, findings show no difference between the religious versus non-religious. God truly is a failed hypothesis.
 
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