Understanding the New Covenant

[Loveaboveall]

Common sense (at least my common sense ) speaks of the sabbath from creation. Was there a specific command recorded saying that men were required to keep it? No, but neither was there a command to not murder but it still was a sin for cain to do such....

lets look at it from a common sense view. The Jews and to a lesser degree us today define a day as the "evening and the morning". We today, with the invention of the time piece, look at it from midnight to midnight but it still is a 24 hr period. Does God live by this "rule" of the earth. Does he live day to day? I think Peter is pretty clear when he says..."But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet 3:8" God does not live by our time restraints.

So, when God sanctified and hallowed the seventh day at creation, Did He do this for Himself or for humanity? It would make no sense for it to be for Him if He does not live in our time would it? But, wouldn't it make perfect sense for us? And, if it was done for humanity why would he wait until after the apostasy before the flood and then a number of years after the flood before telling only a small number of people that there was a day that He had sanctified? Why would God have not told Abraham about this since He was the "father" of this great nation? Why not start there?

Secondly, If the assertion of some is true that the sabbath was a Post- Sinai command and was not given before then, Does this mean that the seventh day became holy only after it was given to the COI? When does the bible say the seventh day was sanctified? Just because most do not remember the seventh day does that make it unholy? Which begs the question... Once something is sanctified by God can it then be unsanctified? Who or what hows the power to unsanctify something that God sanctified? Is there anywhere in the bible that says that God unsanctified the seventh day?

Thirdly, I want to focus on one specific word Jesus used when speaking of the sabbath...

Mark 2:27-28
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

What does the word "for" signify? It means it was not against man, it was meant to be a blessing to him. It still boggles my mind why anyone, once they understand the true meaning of the Sabbath would ever argue against it and say it means nothing to us today? I believe it was Icedragon who even came this conclusion but admitted he didn't want to give it up! Why do people want to try so hard to nullify what God has given FOR us as a blessing, so that we may remember that we are nothing without Him and everything with Him? His our creator and savior, one does not nullify the other and neither is one more important than the other. But, the sabbath reminds us of both Him who created us and Him who saves us and sanctifies us! Why do we need any other day? But, you may say, we don't need any day now for we are at rest in Jesus. Ahhh, is one who says this any better than the Jews of old? Did the Jews of old not have many more miraculous signs of God with them, yet they turned from God to follow strange gods? One question... Do you still stumble and fall? Can you claim to be a perfect rest in Jesus if you still turn from Him at times and go your own way? If this is true the sabbath is just for you! To remind you just as the COI needed a reminder of who created them, saved them, and sanctfied them.

 

[Adventtruth]

Common sense (at least my common sense ) speaks of the sabbath from creation. Was there a specific command recorded saying that men were required to keep it? No, but neither was there a command to not murder but it still was a sin for cain to do such....

From the record we have in Romans 1 it seems that Gods attributes and power and character where know by them. Before the fall Adam and Eve would not have to be told about bad morals such as murder. They where created perfect with righteous morals. They where in face to face relationships with God,thus seeing and understanding righteousness. It was inbread with them. Not so with one day in seven, all days where as resting in God.

lets look at it from a common sense view. The Jews and to a lesser degree us today define a day as the "evening and the morning". We today, with the invention of the time piece, look at it from midnight to midnight but it still is a 24 hr period. Does God live by this "rule" of the earth. Does he live day to day? I think Peter is pretty clear when he says..."But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet 3:8" God does not live by our time restraints.

I agree. But God did give us those time restraints...did He not?

So, when God sanctified and hallowed the seventh day at creation, Did He do this for Himself or for humanity?

He did it for both...ultimatly for Himself.

It would make no sense for it to be for Him if He does not live in our time would it?

Oh yes it would. You are not looking at the ultimate picture...you are making this thing about you when its not about you at all...its about God and His good pleasure. Your reasoning is like saying what many pastors teach, that Christ ultimatly came to die for us because He loved us. Thats not the ultimate purpose for His dying

But, wouldn't it make perfect sense for us? And, if it was done for humanity why would he wait until after the apostasy before the flood and then a number of years after the flood before telling only a small number of people that there was a day that He had sanctified? Why would God have not told Abraham about this since He was the "father" of this great nation? Why not start there?

This is where you and many begin to question God, rather than recieve what we already have in the bible. Its Gods good pleasure as to why He does anything...we just need to recieve what we do know and not speculate about what is not there as the real truth.

Secondly, If the assertion of some is true that the sabbath was a Post- Sinai command and was not given before then,

What! assertion? We have not a text that says man was commanded to keep the sabbath at creation, and we have text that say a written law was giving to keep it at Moses, to a spacific people who are called Jews, and you say its without support? You are wrong here.

Does this mean that the seventh day became holy only after it was given to the COI? When does the bible say the seventh day was sanctified?

No...the record says it was made holy by God on the seventh day.

Just because most do not remember the seventh day does that make it unholy? Which begs the question... Once something is sanctified by God can it then be unsanctified?

God told Moses that the ground upon which he stood was holy. Is it holy today? The tools used in the service of the priest where holy. If they where found today are they still holy for that sevice?

Who or what hows the power to unsanctify something that God sanctified? Is there anywhere in the bible that says that God unsanctified the seventh day?

Your logic is falling apart here. What about the feast days? What about the other ceremonial days? The record shows that the ministation of death is done away with for righteousness under the new covenant.

(2Co 3:11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Thirdly, I want to focus on one specific word Jesus used when speaking of the sabbath...

Mark 2:27-28
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

What does the word "for" signify? It means it was not against man, it was meant to be a blessing to him. It still boggles my mind why anyone, once they understand the true meaning of the Sabbath would ever argue against it and say it means nothing to us today? I believe it was Icedragon who even came this conclusion but admitted he didn't want to give it up! Why do people want to try so hard to nullify what God has given FOR us as a blessing, so that we may remember that we are nothing without Him and everything with Him? His our creator and savior, one does not nullify the other and neither is one more important than the other. But, the sabbath reminds us of both Him who created us and Him who saves us and sanctifies us! Why do we need any other day? But, you may say, we don't need any day now for we are at rest in Jesus. Ahhh, is one who says this any better than the Jews of old? Did the Jews of old not have many more miraculous signs of God with them, yet they turned from God to follow strange gods? One question... Do you still stumble and fall? Can you claim to be a perfect rest in Jesus if you still turn from Him at times and go your own way? If this is true the sabbath is just for you! To remind you just as the COI needed a reminder of who created them, saved them, and sanctfied them.

I am wondering if you know the true reason for and the true meaning of the Sabbath. The Sabbath just like all of the ten commandments where for man, not just the Sabbath. And btw...if the sabbath was of the law, does it follow what has been said here?

(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


I'm sorry, but your logic is so old covenant. We dont need a seventh day sign to remind us of who God is and what he has done. At least not most foke. New Covenant believes have the Holy Spirit to do that daily, hourly, every minute and second. He even says so in His word.


(Joh 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

(Joh 16:14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

(Joh 16:15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

(1Jn 2:20) But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

(1Jn 2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Have you replaced the duties and power of the Holy Spirit with the ten commandments? I still have many friends in SDAism who have forgot the role of the Holy Spirit by following after and performing the law. The covenant sign of the Old Covenant was the Sabbath. It showed that God created, delievered them from bondage, and sanctified them. Under the New Covenant the sign is communion.

(Mat 26:28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(Mat 26:29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

(1Co 11:24) And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
(1Co 11:25) After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
(1Co 11:26) For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

This is the sign of the New Covenant, not the seventh day Sabbath. The sign of the Old Covenant pointed to the anti-type...The True person who would create you a new, who would deliever you from bondage, and who would sactify you, all by the sacrifice of Himself through His death for you. And we are joined with Him in death and life by Gods grace through faith alone. And we show forth this belief by our taking part in the sign of eating of His flesh and the drinking of His blood in communion. I'm sorry that you have a hard time understanding this truth. The Holy Spirit remindes us every second that Christ is everything to us. He is our/the True Sabbath Rest.

AT

 

[ricker]

Context, context. Mark is writing Peter's testimony to a Roman audience.

The Gospels very rarely add commentary. This is a quote of what Jesus said. The commentary for the new Christian church is in the epistles, where we find no Sabbath command, even some verses that can be taken as saying it is no longer neccessary to keep.

 

[ricker]

Nice try Rick

Jesus Christ very well could have said the Sabbath was made for "Jews" but He did not. Just as Solomon could have said the duty of "Jews" was to fear God and keep the commandments. He did not. Both said "man" or "mankind".

Jesus or Paul or John or anyone in the new testament could have said that the Sabbath was to be kept under the new covenant, but they didn't. Matter of fact there is no instructions at all for all the many, many Gentiles on how to keep the Sabbath in their new faith.

He said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" Mark 2:27

Common sense:

• sabbath -----> "made" at creation
• man ---------> "made" at creation

Is the context not clear enough that Creation is being referenced? When did the first Jew walk the earth?

The command for the observance of the Sabbath in the Bible does not come until after the Exodus, and you know it. I see absolutely no reference to creation at all.

What saith the Lord?

"Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from His people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree....Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:1-7

"Strangers could become proselytes and join them in the old covenant rituals.
Where do you get the correlation between a house of prayer for all people and the Sabbath. The Sabbath commandment is one of rest.

If the Jews only thought that the Sabbath was meant for them only, they were not reading the Scriptures. Christ and His Word make it plain that the seventh-day Sabbath was created, sanctified for holy use, for mankind.

Come on Jon, Jews today even say the Shabbat is not for Christians, but for Jews.

Getting down to brass tacks. The word "man" can mean either mankind or a specific "man" in the origional greek as it can in english. Since Exodus 31 makes it very specific the Sabbath was to be a perpetual sign for the Jews, and there is no command or instructions for the Sabbath for Christians anywhere in the Bible, and the context has Jesus speaking only with Jews, and this is the only place in the Bible that can be remotely inferred that the Sabbath is given to Gentile Christians, I think we can be pretty sure of what meaning He meant by man. Jesus was not adressing the origions of the Sabbath in this passage, but it's manner of observance.
God bless! Ricker

 

[ricker]

Whether or not they did or didn't makes no difference in the truth this rhetorric contains. Jesus Christ never tempered His speech to those around Him so they would not be offended by it. Quite the contrary He was very direct in calling them vipers and such and never pulled any punches on truth. Jesus was there at creation and according to the Bible so there wasn't anything that was made that He didn't have a part in it including the Sabbath so this verse is significant.

When Jesus says here that the Sabbath was made for man and that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath day He means all the way back to the start of it all.

God bless
Jim Larmore

If the Jews present when Jesus said this thought He was declairing the Sabbath binding on the whole human race, there would have been conflict, as you have pointed out, like occured at other times.
God bless! Ricker

 

[Jimlarmore]

If the Jews present when Jesus said this thought He was declairing the Sabbath binding on the whole human race, there would have been conflict, as you have pointed out, like occured at other times.
God bless! Ricker

As I said before it doesn't matter the truth the text portrays is blatantly evident. Jesus is our prime example for the Christian life. His habit was to keep the Sabbath and when He spoke these words in Mark He made it clear that He was Lord of the Sabbath. If He knew that this day was to be ignored or thrown out the window later it certainly wouldn't make any sense that He wouldn't tell them ( the Pharasees whom He was constantly getting in trouble with about the Sabbath ) about it at that time. What we find is He not only kept it the right way but rebuked them for making the day a burden for Israel. Later on He also told the disciples to pray that when the siege of Jerusalem happened that their flight be not on the Sabbath day. The Sabbath is not to be laid aside in the new covenant Christian era. The Sabbath is needed more today than it ever has been.

I think there is strong evidence that this prophecy in Matt 24 is dualistic in nature and applies to us at the very end of time as well when we too will have to flee for our lives in face of a persecuting power.

This last weekend I heard a sermon where the verses in Heb 4:1-12 were used to show the importance of observing the rest of God and how God has rested from His works on the Sabbath. In these verses it also said that we should labor to enter that rest of God. Many christians like to say this rest is "only" speaking of resting from the works of the flesh to gain salvation but a very close look at these texts also specifically mention the Sabbath as being the day for those who receive the gospel to rest on. These texts in Heb 4 are proof that new covenant christians need to be observing the Sabbath.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

As I said before it doesn't matter the truth the text portrays is blatantly evident. Jesus is our prime example for the Christian life. His habit was to keep the Sabbath and when He spoke these words in Mark He made it clear that He was Lord of the Sabbath. If He knew that this day was to be ignored or thrown out the window later it certainly wouldn't make any sense that He wouldn't tell them ( the Pharasees whom He was constantly getting in trouble with about the Sabbath ) about it at that time. What we find is He not only kept it the right way but rebuked them for making the day a burden for Israel. Later on He also told the disciples to pray that when the siege of Jerusalem happened that their flight be not on the Sabbath day. The Sabbath is not to be laid aside in the new covenant Christian era. The Sabbath is needed more today than it ever has been.

I think there is strong evidence that this prophecy in Matt 24 is dualistic in nature and applies to us at the very end of time as well when we too will have to flee for our lives in face of a persecuting power.

This last weekend I heard a sermon where the verses in Heb 4:1-12 were used to show the importance of observing the rest of God and how God has rested from His works on the Sabbath. In these verses it also said that we should labor to enter that rest of God. Many christians like to say this rest is "only" speaking of resting from the works of the flesh to gain salvation but a very close look at these texts also specifically mention the Sabbath as being the day for those who receive the gospel to rest on. These texts in Heb 4 are proof that new covenant christians need to be observing the Sabbath.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Thanks for your reply, Jim. Some of your points can't be summarily dismissed and are worth thinking about. I have a question for you. If indeed the admoniton in Matthew 24 is dualistic in nature, will it be morally wrong to flee for your life on the Sabbath?
God bless! Ricker

 

[Jimlarmore]

Thanks for your reply, Jim. Some of your points can't be summarily dismissed and are worth thinking about. I have a question for you. If indeed the admoniton in Matthew 24 is dualistic in nature, will it be morally wrong to flee for your life on the Sabbath?
God bless! Ricker

He doesn't say that, what He says is pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath. In cases of extreme emergency we have to do things we wouldn't ordinarily do on the Sabbath unless it was absolutely necessary. I.E. pull the ox out of the ditch or, for a more modern application, pull a car out of the ditch so folks won't have to sit all day long in their car or on the side of the road. However, in normal situations we would not want to flee from our homes any time let alone the Sabbath. The thing this verse points out to me is the fact that the Sabbath would still be considered a holy day 40 years into the new covenant Christian era and past the ascension of Christ.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

He doesn't say that, what He says is pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath. In cases of extreme emergency we have to do things we wouldn't ordinarily do on the Sabbath unless it was absolutely necessary. I.E. pull the ox out of the ditch or, for a more modern application, pull a car out of the ditch so folks won't have to sit all day long in their car or on the side of the road. However, in normal situations we would not want to flee from our homes any time let alone the Sabbath. The thing this verse points out to me is the fact that the Sabbath would still be considered a holy day 40 years into the new covenant Christian era and past the ascension of Christ.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I suppose you should pray your flight won't be on Sunday, since by then according to the EGW scenario there will be a law forbidding buying and selling on that day. (think gasoline, etc.)
God bless! Ricker

 

[Jimlarmore]

I suppose you should pray your flight won't be on Sunday, since by then according to the EGW scenario there will be a law forbidding buying and selling on that day. (think gasoline, etc.)
God bless! Ricker

You know what we think will happen and the way it may in reality go down may be different in the time/s leading to the Lord's return. However, one thing I am convinced of and that is that a national sunday law will be inacted in the future as a result of an attempt to make all men comply with a world wide state supported religion. Not because Ellen White says it will but because of the stage that is set in the world and the prophecies concerning the Mark of the Beast in Revelation. Close study of the key chapters concerning the rise of the U.S.A. , the beast power, and historically the substitution of Sunday for the Sabbath tell me this. Remember, I was not raised an sda.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

You know what we think will happen and the way it may in reality go down may be different in the time/s leading to the Lord's return. However, one thing I am convinced of and that is that a national sunday law will be inacted in the future as a result of an attempt to make all men comply with a world wide state supported religion. Not because Ellen White says it will but because of the stage that is set in the world and the prophecies concerning the Mark of the Beast in Revelation. Close study of the key chapters concerning the rise of the U.S.A. , the beast power, and historically the substitution of Sunday for the Sabbath tell me this. Remember, I was not raised an sda.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I won't argue the viability of the end time scenario put forth by Adventists, as it is in the end pointless and all speculation.

Did you not catch the correlation between the Sabbath and Sunday in our exchange? Praying your flight will not be on Sunday in the future does not make it a holy day any more than praying the flight would not be on Sabbath did in the apostles times. I don't see how the passage in Matthew confirms Sabbath sacredness.
God bless! Ricker

 

[Jimlarmore]

I won't argue the viability of the end time scenario put forth by Adventists, as it is in the end pointless and all speculation.

Forget what the adventist say on this right now let's discuss what the Bible says. Do you not see a world wide forced religion based on Revelation 13 or not?

Did you not catch the correlation between the Sabbath and Sunday in our exchange? Praying your flight will not be on Sunday in the future does not make it a holy day any more than praying the flight would not be on Sabbath did in the apostles times. I don't see how the passage in Matthew confirms Sabbath sacredness.
God bless! Ricker

If it wasn't sacred He wouldn't have mentioned it. Your mention of sunday I thought was because of possible sunday laws not sunday sacredness. My point was if it hadn't been sacred 40 years after His ascension there would be no need to mention it. It would be like saying pray that your flight be not on wednesday!!! What would that signify? No clearly, here Christ is fixing the fact that Sabbath was to be held sacred even 40 years later. That makes it sacred today also.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

Forget what the adventist say on this right now let's discuss what the Bible says. Do you not see a world wide forced religion based on Revelation 13 or not?

I'll get back to this.

If it wasn't sacred He wouldn't have mentioned it. Your mention of sunday I thought was because of possible sunday laws not sunday sacredness. My point was if it hadn't been sacred 40 years after His ascension there would be no need to mention it. It would be like saying pray that your flight be not on wednesday!!! What would that signify? No clearly, here Christ is fixing the fact that Sabbath was to be held sacred even 40 years later. That makes it sacred today also.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Just as Sunday laws could cause travel to be difficult in the future, Jewish Sabbath laws would have made travel difficult in apostolic times. You're smart enough to see this. Please don't pretend otherwise.

Jesus didn't mention Sabbath sacredness here at all.

This is no way a commentary on the Christian application of the Sabbath command, but a prayer for ease of travel in a Jewish nation.
Obviously Jesus was anticipating problems of travel on the Sabbath that didn't address the moral question of fleeing. You have pointed out that morally they could have fled on the Sabbath even if observance was still required. This is about practicality, not morality.
God bless! Ricker

 

[Jimlarmore]

Just as Sunday laws could cause travel to be difficult in the future, Jewish Sabbath laws would have made travel difficult in apostolic times. You're smart enough to see this. Please don't pretend otherwise.

Jesus didn't mention Sabbath sacredness here at all.

This is no way a commentary on the Christian application of the Sabbath command, but a prayer for ease of travel in a Jewish nation.
Obviously Jesus was anticipating problems of travel on the Sabbath that didn't address the moral question of fleeing. You have pointed out that morally they could have fled on the Sabbath even if observance was still required. This is about practicality, not morality.
God bless! Ricker

But here's the rub if you will. Christ mentioning of it brings specific significance to the day itself . Now whether as you say it was because He was concerned of it's sacredness or because it would have caused travel problems is a debateble issue.

I try to see this from a logical prospective. Christ was seeing this time in the future from His omnipotent abilities and knew that Titus would be beseiging Jerusalem. The entire city would eventually be trapped inside and the great majority of them would die of either starvation or slaughter. At this point and when it was possible for them to do so, I don't think logically anyone including the Pharasee's would have made an issue out of the time or day someone was trying to escape or not. According to history the Romans encamped around Jerusalem then pulled back for a time. It was during this time that the Christians escaped on a Wednesday not Sabbath. No Christians died in the slaughter when Jerusalem fell.

Now if the day was still sacred then the point Christ was making was over concern that they not have to violate it's sacredness for emergency reasons and in the end they never had to.

One last thing here that I think is important to bring up. Jesus in His entire tenure here on earth never once mentioned that the Sabbath was to eventually be ignored as a special day of rest and holiness. Indeed He supported the Sabbath and trumpeted that He was Lord of the Sabbath. Surely as creator of all things He certainly was.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

But here's the rub if you will. Christ mentioning of it brings specific significance to the day itself . Now whether as you say it was because He was concerned of it's sacredness or because it would have caused travel problems is a debateble issue.

I try to see this from a logical prospective. Christ was seeing this time in the future from His omnipotent abilities and knew that Titus would be beseiging Jerusalem. The entire city would eventually be trapped inside. At this point and when it was possible for them to do so, I don't think logically anyone including the Pharasee's would have made an issue out of the time or day someone was trying to escape or not. On the contrary if the day was still sacred then the point Christ was making was over concern that they not have to violate it's sacredness for emergency reasons.

One last thing here that I think is important to bring up. Jesus in His entire tenure here never once mentioned that the Sabbath was to eventually be ignored as a special day of rest and holiness. Indeed He supported the Sabbath and trumpeted that He was Lord of the Sabbath. Surely as creator of all things He certainly was.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

You may have a point about the Jewish leaders suspending Sabbath rules in case of flight. Of course this is conjecture. Remember we have established fleeing for our lives would not be breaking the Sabbath, so I'm still not sure this is a moral directive. The other problematic things He mentioned about fleeing were certainly practical in nature.

You are right, this passage is debatable, which of course makes it unsuitable for your assertion it shows the Sabbath in effect for Christians. It is like the "made for man" statement. It can be understood either way. This is far from conclusive evidence, considering what the apostles do and don't say about the Sabbath and what Exodus 31 says about who it was given to and why.

Jesus did not mention that any of the ceremonial Jewish feasts and observances would be ignored, did He?
God bless! Ricker

 

[Jimlarmore]

You may have a point about the Jewish leaders suspending Sabbath rules in case of flight. Of course this is conjecture. Remember we have established fleeing for our lives would not be breaking the Sabbath, so I'm still not sure this is a moral directive. The other problematic things He mentioned about fleeing were certainly practical in nature.

You are right, this passage is debatable, which of course makes it unsuitable for your assertion it shows the Sabbath in effect for Christians. It is like the "made for man" statement. It can be understood either way. This is far from conclusive evidence, considering what the apostles do and don't say about the Sabbath and what Exodus 31 says about who it was given to and why.

I think it's much more than conjecture. I think the only way you can really miss the significance of these verses in Matt24 and Mark is if you are trying desparately to find any excuse to invalidate the sacredness of the 7th day or to rationalize it away. Sorry if that offends you but it's just the way I see it.

Jesus did not mention that any of the ceremonial Jewish feasts and observances would be ignored, did He?
God bless! Ricker

Not to my knowledge , not directly anyway, but He did mention that God's laws were immuteable until they were fulfilled. Christ did something that was against the ceremonial laws on a few occasions and that was to directly forgive sinners without the benefit of an animal sacrifice. So in essence He was doing away with the sacrificial system with His life and acts here. The only laws that were actually fulfilled by Christ was indeed the ceremonial laws that were a shadow of things to come. Most of them were even symbolic of His sacrifice itself. However, nothing about His life death or resurrection fulfilled any of the moral laws of the ten commandments.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[RND]

I think it's much more than conjecture. I think the only way you can really miss the significance of these verses in Matt24 and Mark is if you are trying desparately to find any excuse to invalidate the sacredness of the 7th day or to rationalize it away. Sorry if that offends you but it's just the way I see it.



Not to my knowledge , not directly anyway, but He did mention that God's laws were immuteable until they were fulfilled. Christ did something that was against the ceremonial laws on a few occasions and that was to directly forgive sinners without the benefit of an animal sacrifice. So in essence He was doing away with the sacrificial system with His life and acts here. The only laws that were actually fulfilled by Christ was indeed the ceremonial laws that were a shadow of things to come. Most of them were even symbolic of His sacrifice itself. However, nothing about His life death or resurrection fulfilled any of the moral laws of the ten commandments.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Good points Jim.

Jim, don't you find it interesting and very telling that in the Gospels we NEVER see or are told of Jesus observing any of the ceremonial sabbaths and feast days and only observing the passover?

I think Jesus was purposely living the fulfillment of the prophecy about the sacrifice and oblation ceasing in the midst of the week.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[ricker]

I think it's much more than conjecture. I think the only way you can really miss the significance of these verses in Matt24 and Mark is if you are trying desparately to find any excuse to invalidate the sacredness of the 7th day or to rationalize it away. Sorry if that offends you but it's just the way I see it.

Jim Larmore

I'm not offended, Jim. You have a considerate way of saying things.

On the flip side of what you say above, one could say some people try to rationalize the binding observance of the Sabbath in rejection of clear scripture.

Exodus 31:

The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "

This clearly states exactly who the Sabbath was for. The Bible nowhere states the Sabbath is a sign for the Christian church. The sign of the new covenant is the Lord's supper.

Acts 15 clearly says the new Gentile Christians are not under the Jewish law.

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Collossians 2 says this:

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day

Romans 14 says:

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

Galations 4 says:

10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

This is speaking of the weekly, monthly and yearly celebrations.

Hebrews 4 tells us of the rest that remains for Christians:

9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Add this to the fact there is no command to observe the Sabbath under the new covenant or instructions to the new Gentile believers on its observance.

I know you can try to rationalize these and more away, but please don't pretend the rationalization is only on the non-sabbitarian side. It seems to me these texts are much clearer in meaning than the ones you quote to try to maintain the Sabbaths significance.
God bless! Ricker

 

[ricker]

Good points Jim.

Jim, don't you find it interesting and very telling that in the Gospels we NEVER see or are told of Jesus observing any of the ceremonial sabbaths and feast days and only observing the passover?

I think Jesus was purposely living the fulfillment of the prophecy about the sacrifice and oblation ceasing in the midst of the week.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You don't believe Jesus followed the whole law given to the Jews, including the observance of the many holy days and the clean and unclean laws, etc?

 

[RND]

You don't believe Jesus followed the whole law given to the Jews, including the observance of the many holy days and the clean and unclean laws, etc?

Read again what I said ricker. I said "...any of the ceremonial sabbaths and feast days..."