Understanding the New Covenant

[Sophia7]

Thank you, I asked an honest question.

I find it interesting that in the time of the Israelites as a nation God told them to kill whole nations of people, man women, and children. It seems like many of the "clean and unclean" rules given to them seem arbitrary and really no Christians follow them. Many of these laws don't seem to have a fulfillment in Christ.

I see the point you are making about the ten being set apart. In a way they obviously are. I think Tall73 had an excellent study on the significance of the Sabbath command in his thread "The Sabbath and Suzerainty Covenants, the Sign of Loyalty". ( I don't know how to copy links).

I believe the Sabbath was given in the ten commandments as the sign of the old covenant with the Israelites. This ceremonal sign given to the Israelites did not transfer with the moral laws to new covenant Christians. I know we don't agree on this subject. I just want you to know that all people who don't believe that Sabbath keeping is still required are antinomian.
God bless! Ricker

I think you meant that all people who don't believe that Sabbath-keeping is still required are not antinomian?

Yes, I agree that the Ten were set apart but not in terms of moral law versus ceremonial law, as Adventists say. They were the heart of the old covenant, with the Sabbath as its sign of loyalty. Adventist theology makes a false distinction between the "law of Moses" and "God's law," as Loveaboveall did in his last post. The fact is that God, not Moses, gave the whole Torah, yet Adventists don't keep the whole thing. They inconsistently pick out the Ten Commandments and some parts of the tithing instructions and the dietary laws and ignore most of the rest. Clearly at least some of God's requirements for His followers have changed over time, but Adventists explain that reality away by arguing that only what they call "ceremonial laws" were fulfilled by Christ.

 

[reddogs]

I think you meant that all people who don't believe that Sabbath-keeping is still required are not antinomian?

Yes, I agree that the Ten were set apart but not in terms of moral law versus ceremonial law, as Adventists say. They were the heart of the old covenant, with the Sabbath as its sign of loyalty. Adventist theology makes a false distinction between the "law of Moses" and "God's law," as Loveaboveall did in his last post. The fact is that God, not Moses, gave the whole Torah, yet Adventists don't keep the whole thing. They inconsistently pick out the Ten Commandments and some parts of the tithing instructions and the dietary laws and ignore most of the rest. Clearly at least some of God's requirements for His followers have changed over time, but Adventists explain that reality away by arguing that only what they call "ceremonial laws" were fulfilled by Christ.

What you fail to recognize is that it was given at Creation for all mankind and Christ pointed to the true purpose of the law when asked, it connects man to his creator. If you take it out of the context of Creation, then any substitute (like Sunday) can be put in or parts taken out as the purpose is gone, the Law points us to love the Creator and His creations as it was from the begining....

The Greatest Commandment

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

 

[ricker]

I think you meant that all people who don't believe that Sabbath-keeping is still required are not antinomian?

Yes, thanks! I write to fast sometimes and don't check it like I should.

 

[Sophia7]

What you fail to recognize is that it was given at Creation for all mankind and Christ pointed to the true purpose of the law when asked, it connects man to his creator. If you take it out of the context of Creation, then any substitute (like Sunday) can be put in or parts taken out, the Law points us to love the Creator and His creations as it was from the begining....

The Greatest Commandment

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

You fail to give evidence that the Sabbath was given as a commandment at creation. Please support that argument from the Bible.

 

[reddogs]

You fail to give evidence that the Sabbath was given as a commandment at creation. Please support that argument from the Bible.

When Christ who was there from the begining at Creation said I am the Lord of the Sabbath which was made (created) for man, what day was he refering to, Sunday........?

Mark 2:27-28
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

 

[Sophia7]

When Christ who was there from the begining at Creation said I am the Lord of the Sabbath which was made (created) for man, what day was he refering to, Sunday........?

Mark 2:27-28
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Yes, the Sabbath was made. I think we can all agree on that. However, since it was made and thus had a beginning, by definition it can't be eternal. Also, where did Jesus say that the Sabbath was given as a commandment for all mankind at creation? It's not in that statement.

 

[reddogs]

Yes, the Sabbath was made. I think we can all agree on that. However, since it was made and thus had a beginning, by definition it can't be eternal. Also, where did Jesus say that the Sabbath was given as a commandment for all mankind at creation? It's not in that statement.

Finish the text and you get your answer, "the Sabbath was made for man"... not "the Jews", "the righteous", "Abrahams seed", but for "man", and when did Christ create the Sabbath that He is Lord of, at Creation..... He wasnt 'Lord of day seven from creation', He was Lord of the Sabbath....

 

[Sophia7]

Finish the text and you get your answer, "the Sabbath was made for man"... not "the Jews", "the righteous", "Abrahams seed", but for "man", and when did Christ create the Sabbath that He is Lord of, at Creation..... He wasnt 'Lord of day seven from creation', He was Lord of the Sabbath....

Red, you're reading that into the text. It doesn't say that the Sabbath commandment was given at creation.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Red, you're reading that into the text. It doesn't say that the Sabbath commandment was given at creation.

You can't say it wasn't commanded either, we just don't know. So is a lack of a commandment mean man could brush it off if he wanted back then? Think about what you are implying. We don't see any commandments not to lie, steal or commit adultery either but we know from the Genesis account in the Bible that those acts were considered sin none the less. The text says the seventh day was "sanctified" which is defined as "set aside" for Holy use. Whose use? Like Reddogs said Christ Himself said the Sabbath was made for man not Israel or the Jews. It was Christ who made the Sabbath and He is Lord of that day. Those who like to make a big deal out of a lack of a direct commandment to keep the Sabbath at creation never mention the other things that include sin as well are missing too.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

Red, you're reading that into the text. It doesn't say that the Sabbath commandment was given at creation.

Jesus created all the days, but only one day he created was the Sabbath, which made Him Lord of that special day and it wasnt the first day.

 

[ricker]

Sorry, double post

 

[ricker]

When Christ who was there from the begining at Creation said I am the Lord of the Sabbath which was made (created) for man, what day was he refering to, Sunday........?

Mark 2:27-28
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Context, context. Jesus was speaking to an all Jewish audience. If they had understood Him to mean all mankind, it would have caused a huge uproar. The Jews of the day were very protective of their Sabbaths and did not in any way believe them to be for Gentiles.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Context, context. Jesus was speaking to an all Jewish audience. If they had understood Him to mean all mankind, it would have caused a huge uproar. The Jews of the day were very protective of their Sabbaths and did not in any way believe them to be for Gentiles.

The Sabbath was given to the children of Israel there's no doubt and it continues to be a sign for the chosen nation of God which is " spiritual israel" or Christians. There were no Jews at creation though and this is the context of what the verse in Mark is speaking about.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

The Sabbath was given to the children of Israel there's no doubt and it continues to be a sign for the chosen nation of God which is " spiritual israel" or Christians. There were no Jews at creation though and this is the context of what the verse in Mark is speaking about.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Do you think Jesus's Jewish audience when He said this understood it the way you put it?

 

[Adventtruth]

The Sabbath was given to the children of Israel there's no doubt and it continues to be a sign for the chosen nation of God which is " spiritual israel" or Christians. There were no Jews at creation though and this is the context of what the verse in Mark is speaking about.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Scripture please.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

You can't say it wasn't commanded either, we just don't know.

Oh Yeah? But mankind did know everything they needed to know, the bible tells us so.

(Rom 1:20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

So is a lack of a commandment mean man could brush it off if he wanted back then?

If there was not a commandment for it, mankind had no reason to keep it. And the record support there was no cammandment for it.

Think about what you are implying. We don't see any commandments not to lie, steal or commit adultery either but we know from the Genesis account in the Bible that those acts were considered sin none the less.

But your reasoning is faulty. You have not factored in Romans 1:20. Once you do that you will see that men understood those moral issues becasue they knew all righteousness before the fall. It was after the fall that righteousness became obscured.

The text says the seventh day was "sanctified" which is defined as "set aside" for Holy use. Whose use? Like Reddogs said Christ Himself said the Sabbath was made for man not Israel or the Jews. It was Christ who made the Sabbath and He is Lord of that day. Those who like to make a big deal out of a lack of a direct commandment to keep the Sabbath at creation never mention the other things that include sin as well are missing too.

So how does the 4th commandment harmonize with Gal 3:24 and 25?

(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


AT

 

[Jon0388g]

Context, context. Jesus was speaking to an all Jewish audience. If they had understood Him to mean all mankind, it would have caused a huge uproar.

Nice try Rick

Jesus Christ very well could have said the Sabbath was made for "Jews" but He did not. Just as Solomon could have said the duty of "Jews" was to fear God and keep the commandments. He did not. Both said "man" or "mankind".


Sophia artfully dodged the implications of Christ's statement to the Jews and I find that interesting.

"And He said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" Mark 2:27

Common sense:

• sabbath -----> "made" at creation
• man ---------> "made" at creation

Is the context not clear enough that Creation is being referenced? When did the first Jew walk the earth?

The Jews of the day were very protective of their Sabbaths and did not in any way believe them to be for Gentiles.

False.

What saith the Lord?

"Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from His people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree....Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:1-7


If the Jews only thought that the Sabbath was meant for them only, they were not reading the Scriptures. Christ and His Word make it plain that the seventh-day Sabbath was created, sanctified for holy use, for mankind.


Jon

 

[djconklin]

Mark 2:27-28
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Context, context. Jesus was speaking to an all Jewish audience.

Context, context. Mark is writing Peter's testimony to a Roman audience.

 

[djconklin]

There were no Jews at creation though and this is the context of what the verse in Mark is speaking about.

Scripture please.

Why, and how(?!?), would the Bible record a negative? Most people are quite aware that the first Jew was Abraham, not Adam.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Do you think Jesus's Jewish audience when He said this understood it the way you put it?

Whether or not they did or didn't makes no difference in the truth this rhetorric contains. Jesus Christ never tempered His speech to those around Him so they would not be offended by it. Quite the contrary He was very direct in calling them vipers and such and never pulled any punches on truth. Jesus was there at creation and according to the Bible so there wasn't anything that was made that He didn't have a part in it including the Sabbath so this verse is significant.

When Jesus says here that the Sabbath was made for man and that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath day He means all the way back to the start of it all.

God bless
Jim Larmore