A re-examination of nothing

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Masturbation is definitely a sin under certain circumstances.

• Premarital masturbation is the same as having sex out of wedlock because the person doing it is usually fantasizing about another person.
• Masturbation while married but fantasizing about a person that one is not married to is equivalent to adultery.
• Homosexual masturbation is a sin because the practice of homosexuality is sin.

For Bible believing Christians the Bible is the only proof in these matters

But you bes not offerings one shred of Bible to substantiate the contention that masturbation bes sin. You bes offerings only your own human reasoning layered on top of OTHER matters attempting to EXTRAPOLATE unto a foregoned conclusion in redundancy fashion.

and no amount of spitting and sputtering weak arguments and questions challenging the veracity of Scripture is valid arguing as nothing can come against something as great as God's written word.

spitting and sputtering? you bes not bringsy forth a single verse from God's written word for demonstrates or substantiatings that masturbation specifically constitutes sexual immorality or even bes included therein (except by humans claiming it does). you bes not bringsy a single verse of Scripture at all, merely stating your human reasoning then equating this with the "veracity of Scripture". It bes your extrapolations upon scripture perhaps but bes not them scriptures itself.

I do not plan on offering proof or rebuttal other than to say that these subjects are addressed in Scripture because I don't have the time to reiterate what has been said repeatedly and believed by Christians the world over

Truth bes not established by majority rule. Centuries of pogroms, crusades and inquisitions ought to have taught that firmly to any protestant.

I don't need to prove it to anyone who is trying to discount it or give it meanings that are not there. What's important is that I accept it myself and I do.

Ummm in a debate that bes what one needs doing, bes them substantiates and demonstratings one's argument. Otherwise there bes no need to even participate.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Touching self is not a sin, but if it is done as a sexual expression it is a sin. It involves the MIND. There is a point at which fantasy or unwholesome thoughts enter the picture. That is where it becomes lewd and sinful. We are to control our thoughts and cast vile imaginations (lust) out.

OK but what if "rubbing one out" (as some callsy) does not involve mental imagery, but bes literally just as if scratching an itch to get rid of the nuisance of the itch, and nothing else. EVEN IF you don't think that ever happens, humor Moriah and theorize what if, would that then be a sin or not? Because if you bes contending the sin bes in the MIND involving lustful thoughts, that bes a separate matter from the masturbatory physical act and does not make the act itself of touching, a sin.

 

[davedjy]

We have discussed what the Bible says is sin and you just turn a blind eye to it. This is no longer a debate. A debate ceases when the truth is raised about an issue. The loser is supposed to accept graciously. You do not do that. Instead the pro-homosexuality side continues to dig their heels in like stubborn children.

Now, we are continuing ad nauseum! *barf bag handy*

You have not presented truth, and you have not won the argument. You haven't even addressed any of the points and demonstrated a proper rebuttal of even one point I or any other DOH forum member has made.


As if saying "your translation is wrong because it has an agenda" is a credible debate point, and that is pretty much 99.9% of your defense on this issue. Try again, it isn't proof of anything except that you aren't debating.

Making points like "masturbation and homosexuality are basically the same thing" really show the lack of education on the subject matter, esp. when those things are two entirely different practices. You defend the proven inconsistencies, and you have lost the debate when you do that.

Stubborn children? that is insisting that something has an agenda over and over and over and over again, as if that properly discredits something...

 

[davedjy]

What I glean from all of your arguments is that it does not appear that you are willing to accept any proof regardless of what is presented. But it may be interesting to you if you are indeed openminded about what many of us believe about our Holy Bibles to read what goes into translating and compiling one. I listed the NIV Study Bible preface that details that at http://christianforums.com/t6846042...exuals-or-others-to-be-christian.html&page=11

Ignore proof? there isn't any proof, just interpretations of passages of Scripture.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Last part of post #504 touches on this.

Sorry but no, it does not.
You have not answered the fact that masturbation -- as a specifically described act and specifically designated "sin" -- bes omitted from scripture entirely.
The issue being this: all other sexual "sins" bes listed very specifically by describing the act itself in Leviticus 18. Do not lie with your father's wife, do not present yourself to an animal to lie down with it, etc. etc. The writers take GREAT care to list ALL such acts what bes callsy sin even to the point of meticulous absurdity, for example, with every possible notion of incest covered individually rather than lumping together and just saying "no incest".
With this pattern and template of METICULOUS and CAREFUL DETAIL established, the total OMISSION of masturbation by either name or deed-description bes starkly telling indeed. It means the writers of Levitcus clearly did not consider it to bes something needing addressing as a "sin".

Extrapolations based upon human reason do NOT constitute direct evidence from scripture. Simply JUDGING the matter to consist of "lack of self control" for example does not wash. What if rubbing it out bes one's method OF self-control -- to return one's mind to more important things and get the itch out of the way so it will not distract and tempt and annoy all day? What if such things bes literally like scratching an itch and not accompanied with fantasies of any sort of lust object? Yes it bes speaksy theoretical & conjecture here but they bes questions worth answering, neh?

 

[Chaplain David]

But you bes not offerings one shred of Bible to substantiate the contention that masturbation bes sin. You bes offerings only your own human reasoning layered on top of OTHER matters attempting to EXTRAPOLATE unto a foregoned conclusion in redundancy fashion.

spitting and sputtering? you bes not bringsy forth a single verse from God's written word for demonstrates or substantiatings that masturbation specifically constitutes sexual immorality or even bes included therein (except by humans claiming it does). you bes not bringsy a single verse of Scripture at all, merely stating your human reasoning then equating this with the "veracity of Scripture". It bes your extrapolations upon scripture perhaps but bes not them scriptures itself.

Truth bes not established by majority rule. Centuries of pogroms, crusades and inquisitions ought to have taught that firmly to any protestant.

Ummm in a debate that bes what one needs doing, bes them substantiates and demonstratings one's argument. Otherwise there bes no need to even participate.

The proof is in scripture. I will not waste my time quoting it to people who have shown repeatedly in this forum that they don't believe it, nor are open to the possibility of what I quote possibly being correct. It's a waste of prescious energy.

I'll answer when I can, help when I can, but will not participate in these circular thinking debates that keep saying the same things continuously.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The proof is in scripture.

WHERE? Show ONE scripture which directly cites masturbation either by name or by description and calls it sin or sexual immorality or any such thing. JUST ONE! IF the proof bes in scripture then surely you can find ONE scripture?

And if not, you will need to somehow account for the glaring omission thereof IN the face of the fact of very clear and present meticulous careful attention to detailing of all other sexual taboos.

I will not waste my time quoting it to people who have shown repeatedly in this forum that they don't believe it, nor are open to the possibility of what I quote possibly being correct.

That bes a cop out. No one has the right or place to judge others concerning what they believesy and/or do not, nor does any have any right to claim someone does not believe God or scripture simply because they do not accept human extrapolations upon it as the equivalent thereof. When you makesy them contentions something bes from the word of God it expects to see SCRIPTURE stating it, not needing to be explained by them humans.

It's a waste of precious energy.

But it bes less a waste of energy to try to tear down and discredit any what don't think as you do on the subject? Please. It asks for ONE scripture what speaks specifically about masturbation. How hard can that be?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Moraih_Conquering_Wind,
As I said before perhaps you could know explain why masturbation might not be sinful? you seem too focused on proof it is at the moment.

 

[Floatingaxe]

OK but what if "rubbing one out" (as some callsy) does not involve mental imagery, but bes literally just as if scratching an itch to get rid of the nuisance of the itch, and nothing else. EVEN IF you don't think that ever happens, humor Moriah and theorize what if, would that then be a sin or not? Because if you bes contending the sin bes in the MIND involving lustful thoughts, that bes a separate matter from the masturbatory physical act and does not make the act itself of touching, a sin.

If one touches oneself to the point of erection and/or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], then one has crossed the line into sinfulness. It takes the mind to sustain it and bring it to a conclusion. It is the mind that says, "Go ahaead, full throttle!" It is the mind also that says, "Hey, I am dishonouring my body and dishonouring God, and I will stop this."

Are we obedient children or spoiled brat disobedient children?

 

[davedjy]

If one touches oneself to the point of erection and/or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], then one has crossed the line into sinfulness.

Direct, specific Scriptural quote for this, please...

 

[Jecoulo]

If one touches oneself to the point of erection and/or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], then one has crossed the line into sinfulness. It takes the mind to sustain it and bring it to a conclusion. It is the mind that says, "Go ahaead, full throttle!" It is the mind also that says, "Hey, I am dishonouring my body and dishonouring God, and I will stop this."

Are we obedient children or spoiled brat disobedient children?

do you have a scripture quote to back this up. this is not a trick question

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Dear Moraih_Conquering_Wind,
As I said before perhaps you could know explain why masturbation might not be sinful? you seem too focused on proof it is at the moment.

Well yes, it has not seen any scriptural substantiation for the contention that it bes a sin. Ppls stated it bes a sin but offer no substantiation and no scriptures to demonstrate this conclusively -- they rely upon human conjecture and extrapolation.
You claim it bes sin, demonstrate the proof of your claim.
Scripture does not list it nor describe it as sin whereas scripture lists many other sexual matters in intricate detail.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Direct, specific Scriptural quote for this, please...

All scripture that speaks to avoiding sinful thoughts, lust, etc pertain here. Stinkin' thinkin' is verboten!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

If one touches oneself to the point of erection and/or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], then one has crossed the line into sinfulness. It takes the mind to sustain it and bring it to a conclusion. It is the mind that says, "Go ahaead, full throttle!" It is the mind also that says, "Hey, I am dishonouring my body and dishonouring God, and I will stop this."

How do you figure that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] constitutes crossing the line into sin? Again, we bes postulating something purely physical here, not mental fantasies of lust nor accompanied thereby. Scratching an itch so to speak -- dispelling random hormonal sexual arousal (not precipitated by lustful thoughts but mere bodily hormones) so as to get it out of the way without having it hang around to provoke one into fornications. How can pleasuring one's own body be dishonorable if God created it to receive pleasure? The female [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] has no other function. Did Satan invent the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] then?

Are we obedient children or spoiled brat disobedient children?

Sorry FA, Moriah does not do garbage/poison talk. These terms mean absolutely nothing for adults. Adults bes not children, and should never again, once coming of age, have to listen to the kind of filth seared into their helpless consciousnesses when they bes little by despicable abusive, self-serving sick jerks whats only concern bes justifying themselves to avoid seeing their own wrongs. AND who only get away with it because of a sicko society what supports abuse and disparity and calls absolute filthy misuse of position or advantage some form of virtue when it bes the filthiest lowest ugliest rottenest abomination on the face of the earth and the ONE thing what Satan and God hold in common hatred.
End of issue.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Dear Moraih_Conquering_Wind,
As I said before perhaps you could know explain why masturbation might not be sinful? you seem too focused on proof it is at the moment.

Why? No one here bes interested in this one's thoughts. Scripture only, remember? So bring on the scripture. Where bes the SCRIPTURE addressing masturbation clearly and clearly defining it as sin. We don't need fancy human extrapolations to see, for example, that bestiality bes sin when we read Leviticus 18:23:
[bible]Leviticus 18:23[/bible]
So show us something from scripture just as plain for masturbation. If it bes truly sin surely the bible writers would NOT have neglected to mention it as plainly and clearly as something FAR more "over the top" like bestiality .... right?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

do you have a scripture quote to back this up. this is not a trick question

wondering the same thing over here ...
seems perfectly fine to jump up and down screaming and demanding clear scripture from others for THEIR arguments but when the same bes done in return all we gets bes human conjectures and a big massive dose of dismissive attitude. Yeah, like that makes the case. Right.

 

[Floatingaxe]

How do you figure that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] constitutes crossing the line into sin? Again, we bes postulating something purely physical here, not mental fantasies of lust nor accompanied thereby. Scratching an itch so to speak -- dispelling random hormonal sexual arousal (not precipitated by lustful thoughts but mere bodily hormones) so as to get it out of the way without having it hang around to provoke one into fornications. How can pleasuring one's own body be dishonorable if God created it to receive pleasure? The female [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] has no other function. Did Satan invent the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] then?

It's not anything like scratching an itch. Tell it to the Judge...

Sorry FA, Moriah does not do garbage/poison talk. These terms mean absolutely nothing for adults. Adults bes not children, and should never again have to listen to the filth seared into their helpless consciousnesses by despicable abusive, self-serving sick jerks again once coming of age. End of issue.

What in the name of Jesus are you talking about????

Jesus refers to us as children. Are we going to be good, obedient children, or spoiled, irascible, uncontrollable, unlovely children?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

What in the name of Jesus are you talking about????

Nothing those guilty thereof would EVER comprehend, that bes for certain. Filthy exonerationists of themselves, whats doing to little ones minds what they do. Filthy sick abusers of position and advantage whats turn hearts against all what bes good. Oh it bes tellsy them Judge all right, it bes singsy like a canary, it bes. It bes them righteous hate what arouses lust truth bes told, oppression arouses them lust. They designs it this way for to see the Staff become the serpent. Liars, liars and hypocrites and thieves them all....

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

as for children they bes not self-directed, but reactionary by nature, even past the sensorimotor phase. so you gets what you makesy of them. you makesy them feel irascible, uncontrollable, unlovely, that bes what they becomes. they cannot forge themselves. you makesy them stifled and suffocated, hammerings them down and not letsy them breathe or speak or makesy themselves known, you produces volcanoes and walksy time bombs. you produces them prisons and citadels whats the Dark Lord likesy to come into and HE givesy them HIS aid and comfort. oh YESSSSS. you band together and makesy your constructs and your cliques and your banal little world whats nothing worth investing in and then you want to know why there bes predators in your midst, them whats lusting for the killsy and them rapesy and them takesy other little ones. You do not comprehend the way of the Feral nor what makes Us so. All you have to offer bes condemnation and captivity and scorn and execution AFTER you didsy them dirtyworks in years past to forge them crooked that way. Then you hidesy behind them religions and you abdicates all responsibility -- you washes them hands and like Cain asksy bes you its brothers' keepers.... oh the Judge will have much to say to you humans indeed, much.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Sorry but no, it does not.
You have not answered the fact that masturbation -- as a specifically described act and specifically designated "sin" -- bes omitted from scripture entirely.
The issue being this: all other sexual "sins" bes listed very specifically by describing the act itself in Leviticus 18. Do not lie with your father's wife, do not present yourself to an animal to lie down with it, etc. etc. The writers take GREAT care to list ALL such acts what bes callsy sin even to the point of meticulous absurdity, for example, with every possible notion of incest covered individually rather than lumping together and just saying "no incest".
With this pattern and template of METICULOUS and CAREFUL DETAIL established, the total OMISSION of masturbation by either name or deed-description bes starkly telling indeed. It means the writers of Levitcus clearly did not consider it to bes something needing addressing as a "sin".

Extrapolations based upon human reason do NOT constitute direct evidence from scripture. Simply JUDGING the matter to consist of "lack of self control" for example does not wash. What if rubbing it out bes one's method OF self-control -- to return one's mind to more important things and get the itch out of the way so it will not distract and tempt and annoy all day? What if such things bes literally like scratching an itch and not accompanied with fantasies of any sort of lust object? Yes it bes speaksy theoretical & conjecture here but they bes questions worth answering, neh?

Well then I would say to prayerfull read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit lead.