The insect kinds

[Patashu]

Oh, I agree with you.
I'm just answering someone else's question.
If they survived the flood without the ark, that was a method.

Frankly, I think people who try so hard to discredit the Ark are silly.

The silly thing is that it is impossible to discredit it, which means nothing can prove it either.

You can't point to any observation and say 'If this was Y it would be incompatible with a global flood model but it's X instead so that's evidence for a global flood' because anything is equally compatible with a global flood model, X or Y or Z or Q. Salt and fresh water specific aquatic life isn't a problem, God could have separated the two so the two kinds could survive. The huge amount of beetle species isn't a problem, God can employ hypermutation. The enormous amount of variation in the human genome today isn't a problem, God can mutate and alter our genes directly. Not even the sheer amount of humans after only 4000 or so years is a problem, God could have let us breed like wildfire.

A theory that explains everything explains nothing. It could be false, it could be true but it does not effect us at all whether or not the great flood happened UNTIL a hypothesis with testable predictions and falsifiability is put forth.

 

[FishFace]

When they hear "kinds" or "type" they assume, "2 hefers, 2 black angus, 2 jersey." God, however, may have been saying, "two calves".

I don't think you've been reading along? The point is that if, say, Noah brought along a couple of beetles on the ark, those beetles would have to evolve into a few MILLION species in the time after the flood. However long you make that time is unlikely to be enough unless it's about a billion years.

People like to assume they know when the flood and Noah supposedly lived. The old, "the earth is 6,000 year old," theory based on Biblical Geneology. However - - people who do that are using a modern calendar and the bible's references to "years" and "age" without pausing to consider a few facts biblical historians know.

Often when the bible refers to time in phrases like "days" or "years" or "generations" they are talking "periods of time that have certain characteristics" and not "24 hours" or "4 seasons" or "decades".

I'm not sure I believe you. But it doesn't help you, since there is no evidence whatsoever of a global flood in the earth's geology, and quite a few bits and pieces that are incompatible with the flood - although if you relax your time constraints, you'll have a few fewer problems.

A day may be the rising and setting of the son.
A day also might be "any period of time with a specific beginning and a specific ending, that seems to be a period of darkness to light to darkness again."
And it may not mean "sunshine" light, rather "knowledge" light.

Have you read what Humpty Dumpty said to Alice?

We know they did that when writing the bible because of the events we CAN trace through non-Jewish historical documents. Sometimes the prophets will write, "In 7 years this will happen," and when you pull out history documents, you discover it happened, exactly like the prophets said, but it was "70" of our years, not 7. And then you check, and you find that time after time after time, 7 then equals 70 now.

Time after time after time? I'd like to see a few unbiased sources in the published literature.

Given that we don't know when the flood took place, we don't know that micro-evolution didn't have enough time to turn 2 beetles into 500,000 beetles.

2 beetles to 500,000 beetles is not a problem. It's the number of beetle species that's the problem. You can't evolve a new species of beetle in a few years.

We also don't know that God considers there to be 500,000 beetles. That's a label by mankind that is actually very new to mankind.

That's utterly irrelevant.

As early as 3,000 years ago we had "dogs" and no AKC to say, "That dog is this kind, and that dog is this kind."

All dogs are canis lupus familiaris. Beetles have many many different species, which are well defined by which can breed with which. It takes a short time to get a new breed. It takes a long time to get a new species.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I posted a thread on insect diversity several years ago called Insect diversity falsifies the flood myth. It was so long ago that formating has gotten a little funky so I am repeating most of the OP below. If you go to a zoo that house insects you will see that a great deal of effort is required to keep many species of insects "in captivity". Insects are small and perhaps hundreds of thousands of them could have fit on the ark but how would the 8 people who would have already been overwhelmed trying to care for thousands of different kinds of mammals, reptiles and birds (remember they had to have all the extinct "kinds' such as dinosaurs, Permian Therapsids and all those huge Cenozoic extinct mammalian "kinds" on board as well) have provided the environment and food for thousands of different "kinds" of insects?

The diversity of insect life on earth is yet another falisification of the myth of a worldwide flood. It is totally absurd to claim that all of the approximately 850,000 species of insects on earth are descended from those who survived the flood either on floating mats of vegetation or on the ark as accidental passengers as creationists claim these days. In fact the vast majority of insect species. including entire families and perhaps even entire orders of insects could not have survived a year of flood on floating vegetation and many, perhaps the majority of species could not have survived the alleged worldwide flood either on or off the ark.

Consider the 2000+ species of the order Ephemeroptera (Mayflys), which only live in unpolluted fresh water, many only in running water. The adults have very short lives (some only live 90 minutes) during which they must mate and lay eggs. Even if they somehow live in the salty flood water, which most could not, they will be greatly spread out by the flood. How will they find their mates and where will they lay their eggs? There are many other insect species that only live in fresh water during parts of their life cycle. How will they survive the flood? Did Noah have a fresh running stream on board the ark?

Around here we have insects called sand hornets or more properly cicada killer wasps. They dig their burrows in sand or soft earth and lay their eggs in locusts that they have killed. The adults do not survive over winter. How will their eggs survive a worldwide flood? You can usually wash them out with a garden hose if you want to. How did they survive forty days of global rain and a year of flood that rearranged all of the world's geology?

The caterpillar of the Monarch butterfly only lives on living milkweed plants and Monarchs go through more than one life cycle a year. The adults only feed on nectar and will only lay eggs on living milkweed. While many species of lepidoptera eat various plants, many others eat only specific plants, even if the caterpillars survived somehow, how would cocoons survive, and even if they did how would the adults find other adults to mate with and where would they lay their eggs. Generally, all these life cycles are complete in a year or less. Many of these butterflies and moths are quite fragile. Many other insects require specific living plants or animals for parts of their life cycles. What about all those insects that feed on nectar from living flowers during parts of their life cycles? How would they survive a year on floating vegetation? They could not have survive on or off the ark.


How about desert insects and arachnids that are adapted to live in very dry climates? Do you really think they could all survive for a year in water on floating vegetation?

There are also the cicadas, like the so-called 17 year locusts, that live most of their lives in the ground under a tree, then emerge, live for a short while, mate and lay their eggs in the branches of a tree. After a few days or weeks the eggs hatch and the larvae drop to the ground to live under the tree till the next cycle. They need healthy trees that will live until the next cycle. How did they survive on floating vegetation? What about all the other insects that require mature living trees for their life cycles? How could they have survived after the flood? Did Noah have a small forest on the ark?

These are only a few examples. I am sure that anyone with knowledge of entomology can think of many, many more.

BTW before you give me the “Darwin showed that insects could survive on logs and floating vegetation” claim here is my reply in advance. “Darwin speculated that some snail species survived for some time on floating mats of vegetation or logs going between islands and the mainland and he was probably right. This is not nearly the same as requiring all 'kinds' of insects and invertebrates to survive for more than a year on floating vegetation and then survive after landing on a flood devastated landscape.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Lakercom]

Is anyone besides me having trouble viewing this thread? It always freezes on me, after a couple of minutes. I reported it on the support forum but who knows if it will improve. My Windows task manager, which I need to use each time to unfreeze/close it, indicates the thread is duplicating itself so that must be how the bug works. All my other threads are OK.

 

[Psudopod]

Frankly, I think people who try so hard to discredit the Ark are silly.

Using science to discredit people who will involve miracles at the drop of a hat is silly, because ther's no way to falsify a miracle. You can explain all the countless problems with a global flood with "...and then a miracle happened."

The only thing of import in my opinion is the impossibility of the flood accourding to the evidence. Because then, even if it did happen, we can ignore it as there is absolutely no way it could have happened, and they're left wondering why god went out of his way to create such a perfect false record.

Of course, I've always found the hyper evolution necessary for getting everything we see today from the "kinds" on the ark to be amusing.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't think you've been reading along? The point is that if, say, Noah brought along a couple of beetles on the ark, those beetles would have to evolve into a few MILLION species in the time after the flood. However long you make that time is unlikely to be enough unless it's about a billion years.

You guys don't get it, do you? If you want to do this mathematically, simply reverse-engineer the taxa on these beetles back to the year of the Flood, then however many species are left, their kinds boarded 2 x 2.

 

[Nitron]

You would have to fit about 400,000,000 animals on an are of 95.52 meters. Is this feasible?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You would have to fit about 400,000,000 animals on an are of 95.52 meters. Is this feasible?

Well, the Creationist Museum posits that there was some kind of 'super evolution' shortly after the flood. They also say that God imbued them from Creation with this ability. But if that's true, then God foresaw the Flood! So much for human free will.

 

[AV1611VET]

You would have to fit about 400,000,000 animals on an are of 95.52 meters. Is this feasible?

Here we go 'round the Mulberry bush, the Mulberry bush, the Mulberry bush.

POST 121​

 

[FishFace]

You guys don't get it, do you? If you want to do this mathematically, simply reverse-engineer the taxa on these beetles back to the year of the Flood, then however many species are left, their kinds boarded 2 x 2.

How do you "reverse engineer" a "taxon" "on" a beetle "back" to any time?
Please don't use words if you don't understand what they mean.

 

[FishFace]

Here we go 'round the Mulberry bush, the Mulberry bush, the Mulberry bush.

POST 121​

Why on earth would we treat a storey as a dimension? Was the ark made of wood? If so, then the size given to the ark was already too big to float. So making it bigger, however you plan on doing that, is not going to help.
That's unless you've got Noah mixed up with The Doctor, in which case you're good to go.

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you "reverse engineer" a "taxon" "on" a beetle "back" to any time?
Please don't use words if you don't understand what they mean.

Well, let's drag the question out then, and make it excessively long:

Take the number of beetles in existence today (11 Feb 2008), now go back 100 years, now go back 1000 years, now go back to the year 2349 BC.

Take the number of beetle species in existence then and assume their kinds boarded the Ark two by two.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why on earth would we treat a storey as a dimension?

Why on earth would I treat beetles as evidence of hyper-evolution?

Was the ark made of wood?

Yes.

If so, then the size given to the ark was already too big to float.

Huh?

So making it bigger, however you plan on doing that, is not going to help.

Making what bigger? The Ark? It is 300 x 50 x 30 cubits.

That's unless you've got Noah mixed up with The Doctor, in which case you're good to go.

What doctor?

Are you okay, FishFace?

 

[Psudopod]

The number of beetles in existance today is not the same as the number of species of beetles.

 

[AV1611VET]

The number of beetles in existance today is not the same as the number of species of beetles.

No kidding???

 

[Psudopod]

No kidding???

Right then. So how do you estimate the number of species of beetles around at the time of the flood from the number of beetles around today. Which is what you suggested above.

 

[AV1611VET]

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Right then. So how do you estimate the number of species of beetles around at the time of the flood from the number of beetles around today. Which is what you suggested above.

Psudopod, are you so detached from this thread you don't know what's going on?

Let's start over.

What's the problem with these beetles and the Ark all of a sudden?

There are what? 350,000 species of beetles in existence today or something?

So what? What's the point? Are you guys saying there were too many beetle kinds back then to board the Ark, because the Ark was too small?

This from people who believe the entire universe was once the size of a pixel???

 

[thaumaturgy]

Psudopod, are you so detached from this thread you don't know what's going on?

Let's start over.

What's the problem with these beetles and the Ark all of a sudden?

There are what? 350,000 species of beetles in existence today or something?

So what? What's the point? Are you guys saying there were too many beetle kinds back then to board the Ark, because the Ark was too small?

This from people who believe the entire universe was once the size of a pixel???

Ah, but AV, this is the key difference, no one just accepted the Big Bang because some holy book told them to. Again, I am not overly fond of refering to TalkOrigins prefering primary sources, I'll point out the following Evidences for the Big Bang

So you see, if we were to believe in the Flood of Noah it would require more than a story that looks almost indisitinguishable from any other myth story from any other ancient society. We'd require some actual data in support of that. Independent data.

But you raise a good point. And indeed this is how science works as opposed to dogmatic religion.

 

[Molal]

The Doctor = Dr. Who. who travels through space and time in his TARDIS.

 

[thaumaturgy]

What doctor?

Are you okay, FishFace?

Not "what"...."Who"? But indeed, WHICH?

(Did you not note the little English flag icon by Fish's name?)