What do you think?

[Calliso]

And neither could you prove (in the Bible) many other things that Christians hold as Truth! Not everything is explicitly layed out in the Bible. Christians believe God is the Trinity, but that word nor its doctrine is explicitly layed out for us in the scriptures, but has been passed down to us through His Church!

The use of contraception, places a restraint on sex in that it reduces it to merely sensual pleasure. It no longer can produce the new life in which God created sex to do in the first place...What if you could create a pill that when taken it takes away the ability for your body to absorb vital nutrients in food? For this IS the reason we were created with the desire to eat, so that we can supply our body with nutrients. So when we eat, now it is solely for the pleasure of eating and our bodies are not receiving anything from it but pleasure...this is not God's will for us. This is not how He created us or designed us to be.

Such a pill would never be created because it would not have any postive benefit. Scientists aren;t going to create a pill that would basically kill people. However contraception does have positive effects. Such as allowing families to control their size so they can afford to feed and cloth them. Or allowing those who have no desire to have children at all to not have them. You ca n;t really compare the two. And on that note why give people who have no desire for children the desire to have sex anyway?

 

[SilentNoMore]

Actually I have heard for some people they end up having to abstain from sex most of the time because their cycles are not normal.

Actually, there are ways for doctors to follow your cycle and diagnose the problem causing the abnormality and actually treat the problem.

And I have heard far too many cases of unwanted pregnancies happening because people because they thought they were not fertile when they actually were.

I don't like the term unwanted pregnancy..it's like someone who stuck their hand in fire not expecting or wanting to get burned...

Not to mention it works by basically saying hey if you donlt want to get pregnant donlt have sex during the time the woman is going to most want it! Somehow that doesn;t seem fair.

Well, to be honest, life is not fair. God Himself became man and what did the world do to Him? Was that fair that our Creator became one of us and we killed Him for it? It is not about fairness...it is about goodness and righteousness.
Let's say you are extremely angry and feel like killing someone or hurting them, does your feelings or desire to hurt them make it right to do so? It is not our desires that we should follow, it is God's will.

However I have no problem with those who want to use that method I personally donlt think it should be peoples only choice though other then no sex at all. Also I believe it is extremely rare that the bc pill even allows an egg to get fertilized in the first place.

Well if you research it, you will learn how bc pills, and others lke IUDs "stop" a woman from getting pregnant.

And yeah the womb is a safer place then a trash can. I think the point was though that it isn;t as safe as some people seem to be claiming to seem to believe.

Well, our bodies have been corrupted by sin and therefore we have sickness and death in the world.

 

[Calliso]

Actually, there are ways for doctors to follow your cycle and diagnose the problem causing the abnormality and actually treat the problem.

I don't like the term unwanted pregnancy..it's like someone who stuck their hand in fire not expecting or wanting to get burned...

Well, to be honest, life is not fair. God Himself became man and what did the world do to Him? Was that fair that our Creator became one of us and we killed Him for it? It is not about fairness...it is about goodness and righteousness.
Let's say you are extremely angry and feel like killing someone or hurting them, does your feelings or desire to hurt them make it right to do so? It is not our desires that we should follow, it is God's will.

Well if you research it, you will learn how bc pills, and others lke IUDs "stop" a woman from getting pregnant.

Well, our bodies have been corrupted by sin and therefore we have sickness and death in the world.

Ahh I didn;t know all cycle problems could be corrected. Well scratch that some can be helped by a birth control pill. But I donlt know of other methods. Not saying they donlt exist though just saying I have never heard of other reliable methods. And I think the birth control pill only corrects certain ones.

And you may not like the term unwanted pregnancy but unfortunately many are not wanted. When many people have sex they donlt do it even thinking of pregnancy. And maybe they should give such things more thought. But just because someone has sex doesn;t mean they want a pregnancy.

And yeah life is not fair but purposely making it even more unfair then it already is seems a little foolish.

And yeah you have a point about the currupted by sin part I guess.

 

[SilentNoMore]

Such a pill would never be created because it would not have any postive benefit. Scientists aren;t going to create a pill that would basically kill people.

Really?!?!?! Seems they already have.

However contraception does have positive effects. Such as allowing families to control their size so they can afford to feed and cloth them. Or allowing those who have no desire to have children at all to not have them. You ca n;t really compare the two. And on that note why give people who have no desire for children the desire to have sex anyway?

When God created man, He created us will ordered desires. Since He created us with free will, there is the possibility to choose that which is not in His will. That is where sin entered the world...the choice to go against His will. Now, our desires are distorted...we desire things we should not...but, we still have the free will to choose God or to follow our sinful desires.

The desire to have sex is not bad, it is natural. But, sin has corrupted this desire so that now it is not ordered to that which God ordained...that is why we have adultery, premarital sex, homosexuality, etc. People following their sexual desires instead of doing the will of God. And it is those sins that lead to more sins, such as abortion...

 

[Palm123]

So you are happy to force a woman to have an unwanted organism living in her body for 9 months? Thats quite a claim you are making on someone else's body.

"Unwanted organism" ... Since when is an unborn child, a human being, a gift from GOD an organism. As a christian I would never turn away a gift from God or dispose of it. Saying it is okay to kill another human being is wrong whether inside, partially outside or all the way outside of the womb is wrong!

 

[Calliso]

Really?!?!?! Seems they already have.


When God created man, He created us will ordered desires. Since He created us with free will, there is the possibility to choose that which is not in His will. That is where sin entered the world...the choice to go against His will. Now, our desires are distorted...we desire things we should not...but, we still have the free will to choose God or to follow our sinful desires.

The desire to have sex is not bad, it is natural. But, sin has corrupted this desire so that now it is not ordered to that which God ordained...that is why we have adultery, premarital sex, homosexuality, etc. People following their sexual desires instead of doing the will of God. And it is those sins that lead to more sins, such as abortion...

Ok you have a point about the pill thing. I wasn;t including birth control pills in my reasoning though. I was refering to pills that would kill born humans.

And how can we be sure though what is God;s will and what is not? I mean for all I know God didn;t want me to get married in the first place. But how could I know that?

 

[Calliso]

"Unwanted organism" ... Since when is an unborn child, a human being, a gift from GOD an organism. As a christian I would never turn away a gift from God or dispose of it. Saying it is okay to kill another human being is wrong whether inside, partially outside or all the way outside of the womb is wrong!

We are all organisms it is just a term.

 

[Palm123]

No, its about a woman's right to decide what happens with her own body.

Since YOU will never have to make such decisions, I don't think you really have any place to tell other people about how they should feel about their own bodies.

You are right, A woman does have the right to decide what happens to her own body BUT only when it has nothing to do with anyone else. I have the Brac II gene and history of bc in my family. I decided (agst the wishes of my husband) to have my breast removed. This was my choice and my breast had nothing to do with my husband. A baby is a part of someone else (whether or not they turn out be involved later in the life of that child) . You decide you don't want a child well then give the father the option to keep the baby or adopt it out. The "hassle" of being pregnant for 9 months with a child you do not want is the consequence of having unsafe sex. Some consequences are unpleasant. If you don't want consequences than don't do the act.

 

[SilentNoMore]

And you may not like the term unwanted pregnancy but unfortunately many are not wanted. When many people have sex they donlt do it even thinking of pregnancy.
And maybe they should give such things more thought. But just because someone has sex doesn;t mean they want a pregnancy.

They must be thinking of pregnancy since they attempt to stop if from occurring. They just see it as a negative consequence to something that is suppose to be pleasurable...this is a distorted view of sex.
Just like if someone did not want to receive the nutrients from the food they eat...that would be absurd, right?

And yeah life is not fair but purposely making it even more unfair then it already is seems a little foolish.

Well, Jesus could have called down 10,000 angels to help him out of the situation He was in...but, He didn't..why? Did He enjoy misery? Did He want to be beaten and hung on a cross? Did He find enjoyment in that or did He just want to make His life as unfair as He possibly could?

 

[Calliso]

They must be thinking of pregnancy since they attempt to stop if from occurring. They just see it as a negative consequence to something that is suppose to be pleasurable...this is a distorted view of sex.
Just like if someone did not want to receive the nutrients from the food they eat...that would be absurd, right?


Well, Jesus could have called down 10,000 angels to help him out of the situation He was in...but, He didn't..why? Did He enjoy misery? Did He want to be beaten and hung on a cross? Did He find enjoyment in that or did He just want to make His life as unfair as He possibly could?

Ok you have a good point about Jesus.

And yeah you are right they are likely thinking of pregnancy if they are trying to prevent it. But I donlt think you can compare not wanting to get pregnant with not wanting to get something that essential for survival. Me not getting the nutrients I need equals death. Me not getting pregnant..equals well me not getting pregnant and not much else. Though you could say that me not getting pregnant has a positve benefit in that I would not make a good mother. Also I disagree that my desires are disordered in anyway.

 

[SilentNoMore]

But I donlt think you can compare not wanting to get pregnant with not wanting to get something that essential for survival.

Well, pregnancy IS essential for the survival of human life.

I compare the two because each are ordered for a specific purpose.

Me not getting the nutrients I need equals death. Me not getting pregnant..equals well me not getting pregnant and not much else.

Unless it results in the death of an innocent life...
and having sex and intentionally removing the possibility of procreation is reducing it to sensual pleasure only and not what was intended by God.

Though you could say that me not getting pregnant has a positve benefit in that I would not make a good mother. Also I disagree that my desires are disordered in anyway.

How do you know you would not make a good mother if you have never been one? I use to believe that I NEVER wanted children for basically the same reason. Now I have two children and I learned how to be mother and with God's help...hopefully, a good mother.

 

[Calliso]

Well, pregnancy IS essential for the survival of human life.

I compare the two because each are ordered for a specific purpose.



Unless it results in the death of an innocent life...
and having sex and intentionally removing the possibility of procreation is reducing it to sensual pleasure only and not what was intended by God.

How do you know you would not make a good mother if you have never been one? I use to believe that I NEVER wanted children for basically the same reason. Now I have two children and I learned how to be mother and with God's help...hopefully, a good mother.

Yes pregnancy is essential for survival of the human race. However it isn;t neccesary for all women to be mothers. If anything it would be a bad thing with our population already being so high. But everyone must eat to survive.

I really donlt know what God intends so I can;t really say whether I am right or you are right on what God intends. However I will never have sex without trying to prevent pregnancy. In fact right now until I get back on birth control I am abstaining. I guess when I die I will find out if God thinks that is ok or not.

I cannot be sure however I dont think it would be fair to any children I had if I had children then found out I was right. That I donlt make a good mother. In fact I think even those who really want children should ask themselves if they would be a good mother and really think about it. I have done a lot of thinking about this and I think even if I really wanted children I still wouldn;t have them.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I am not telling anyone what to do with their body. And the unborn are children and comparing a kidney to an unborn child is grotesque at best and ridiculous.

hey, if you want to murder people by not dontaing your kidney, thats fine.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

and having sex and intentionally removing the possibility of procreation is reducing it to sensual pleasure only and not what was intended by God.

Really? so why do humans get sexually aroused when there is no possibility of conception, even without contraception? (cyclic, infertile or post menopausal reasons, for example)

 

[jad123]

hey, if you want to murder people by not dontaing your kidney, thats fine.

That really addresses your morbid comparison of an unborn child and a kidney.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

That really addresses your morbid comparison of an unborn child and a kidney.

that isn't the comparison at all... the comparison is about how you think its fine to tell others what to do with their bodies, but you start shifting goal posts when it comes to your own.

Or do you deny that someone who is dying might be saved by your kidney?

 

[lincolngreen50]

[/quote]Today, I was having a discussion with someone about abortion. We were trying to figure out if it's still wrong to get an abortion if the baby has genetic defects, etc. My argument was that it is, and the person I was talking to disagreed with me...she was saying how it's wrong to keep the baby when you know they will live a life of pain. But here's what I think:

It is not up to us to decide who lives and who dies. God gives life, and only He has the right to take it away...it makes me so sad to hear about abortions..well I know that God is merciful and it's something He can forgive if the mother repents. So I try not to be judgemental, because I've never been in such a situation myself. But I think it hurts Him to see babies die like that, when He meant them to live.

Even if the baby is shown to have a genetic defect or something, it is still not up to us to take away his or her life...God is sovereign and has a purpose for everything, and sometimes even uses the consequences of this sinful world (like illness) for good. This child still deserves to experience life.[/quote]


Life begins at conception.
I agree with your post.
I believe abortion is wrong.

 

[happyfreak14]

jad, the comparison is not between a fetus and a kidney, it's between a fetus and a potential kidney recipient.

 

[lincolngreen50]

jad, the comparison is not between a fetus and a kidney, it's between a fetus and a potential kidney recipient.

An unborn baby has as much right to life as a person who becomes ill and needs a transplant.
Should a Baby be aborted on the whim of another no!,no! and no!

 

[happyfreak14]

lincolngreen, I think you may have missed the point. basically EnemyParty is saying that requiring a woman to let someone use her uterus because without it they would die isn't really that different from requiring you to give someone else your kidney because without it they would die. by that logic, if you say a fetus shouldn't be aborted on it's mother's whim then you should also argue that a person in need of a kidney shouldn't die on your 'whim' by you deciding not to donate a kidney.