Mysteries of Creation II

[ClearSky]

Related to the first mystery of creation - God's reason for creating Adam - there's another mystery about the situation in the Garden Eden. This mystery is why God planted the tree of knowledge, and His reaction on Adam eating from this tree.

Obviously, is was not necessary for the garden to contain this tree, so God planted the tree as a test for Adam. God wanted to test Adam's obedience in comparison to his curiosity and pursuit of knowledge. This raises a lot of questions, among them:

- God made Adam, so why didn't He already know about Adam's obedience, or lack thereof?

- If God couldn't know the outcome of the test due to Adam's free will, then He could also not know how other people would choose in Adam's situation. Why did He then punish Adam's descendants for the outcome of Adam's test?

- If sin is choosing evil, and Adam didn't know Good and Evil before eating from the tree,why do we assume that Adam's choice was sin?

 

[busterdog]

Related to the first mystery of creation - God's reason for creating Adam - there's another mystery about the situation in the Garden Eden. This mystery is why God planted the tree of knowledge, and His reaction on Adam eating from this tree.

Obviously, is was not necessary for the garden to contain this tree, so God planted the tree as a test for Adam. God wanted to test Adam's obedience in comparison to his curiosity and pursuit of knowledge. This raises a lot of questions, among them:

- God made Adam, so why didn't He already know about Adam's obedience, or lack thereof?

- If God couldn't know the outcome of the test due to Adam's free will, then He could also not know how other people would choose in Adam's situation. Why did He then punish Adam's descendants for the outcome of Adam's test?

- If sin is choosing evil, and Adam didn't know Good and Evil before eating from the tree,why do we assume that Adam's choice was sin?

I can't think of any fee will scriptures per se. There is this issue of "dominion" that was given to Adam:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Can there be dominion or free will without the capacity to choose something else?

There are a number of formulations of hell which have to do with simply choosing to be apart from God. By that formulation, it wasn't punishment per se, but a decision to "prefer" hell. Some satanists actually speak this way. Most of the rest of us are kind of confused and presume that we would prefer heaven, but we never even ask for the one who is "fullness of joy."

Didn't God know the outcome? Yes. Good question. And a brain twister. Here's a worse one: For God who lives outside of time, the final victory and redemption has "already" been achieved, or rather, paradise, the fall, its outcome and the final paradise are all "observed" a the same time.

The idea of a "test" from that perspective has somewhat less force. The nature of the confession of Christ and salvation is also so free, is that a test? The essence of it seems to be like Dorothy realizing that she always had the power to go home (in Christ). And in the sense that it has already been achieved for us, I am not sure I can quite get my head around it. I kind of feel that worship makes more sense that trying to get around it. Not that there aren't questions to be answered, but most of them are answered by this kind of a priori - already-done-for-you on Calvary kind of answer.


Your questions are really interesting. After we chew on this one for a while, here is a suggestion: ask the same question and see if it works in the context of evolution.

 

[FallingWaters]

- If sin is choosing evil, and Adam didn't know Good and Evil before eating from the tree,why do we assume that Adam's choice was sin?

The Bible tells us so by God's response.

 

[busterdog]

Quote:
- If sin is choosing evil, and Adam didn't know Good and Evil before eating from the tree,why do we assume that Adam's choice was sin?

The Bible tells us so by God's response.

Exactly.

Maybe the question was, though, how do we reason through to come to the conclusion that God was correct? As Clearsky posted, she felt there was authority for the proposition that God would teach the validity of such things.

But, as you point out, If you have to ask the question ..... The question, at least from our perspective, is, why should you need the fruit to appreciate the commandment or its significance in the first place? Is that fair? Why does it seem required? Or, as you suggest, you seem to need the forbidden fruit perhaps to start asking the wrong question about a pretty straightforward command. (I am not picking on ClearSky, I think most Christians go through this same process of questioning all the time. I know that I do.)

Everything here seems to really beg the question of whether we can ever answers these questions with our naturally skeptical process of human reasons. How can post-fall thinking evaluate a pre-fall blessing? I think the OP is correct in that there is probably an answer. But, it is important to remember that this is fallen flesh using fallen reason to try to evaluate eternal blessing and unqualified goodness. The questions leads to that conclusion anyway.,

How else do we know? Because after this, everything on the planet pretty much went into the crapper.

 

[FallingWaters]

Quote:
- If sin is choosing evil, and Adam didn't know Good and Evil before eating from the tree,why do we assume that Adam's choice was sin?

Exactly.

Maybe the question was, though, how do we reason through to come to the conclusion that God was correct? ....

I would never dare judge God. It's not good for my health.

 

[busterdog]

I would never dare judge God. It's not good for my health.

Yes. Dangerous territory. I think the OP was just being honest with a natural question. If you know the pitfalls of those questions and have the right heart for Jesus, you may find a new type of grace bringing you closer to Him.

I hope Clearsky continues the discussion.

 

[HypnoToad]

- God made Adam, so why didn't He already know about Adam's obedience, or lack thereof?

The choice has to be there. Obedience is meaningless if there is no other option.

- If God couldn't know the outcome of the test due to Adam's free will, then He could also not know how other people would choose in Adam's situation. Why did He then punish Adam's descendants for the outcome of Adam's test?

God did know, so, moot question.

- If sin is choosing evil, and Adam didn't know Good and Evil before eating from the tree,why do we assume that Adam's choice was sin?

God said, "don't." There's no reason to think Adam didn't understand what "don't" meant.

Further, people today often assume that "knowledge of G&E" simply means factual awareness of it. "Knowledge" in Hebrew has a deeper connotation. It is a more intimate and person connection. Notice that "know" is used as a euphemism for sex in some passages. This isn't about simple factual awareness of right and wrong - it's about a personal connection to it. And the only way to have a personal connection to right and wrong includes doing something wrong. That's what "knowledge of G&E" is about - actually doing something evil. That's what was forbidden, not just factual awareness. So, there's no reason to think Adam didn't understand how to choose right from wrong - only that he was innocent and had never experienced choosing wrong yet.

 

[ClearSky]

Can there be dominion or free will without the capacity to choose something else?

I also think that dominion requires free will and free will is not possible without the ability to choose, and especially choose between Good and Evil.

The question is: Was Adam's choice a choice between Good and Evil? According to Scripture, it was a choice of death for knowledge. This is not necessarily a sin. He could not choose between God and Evil because he had no knowledge of Good and Evil before eating from the tree.

The Bible tells us so by God's response.

Hmm, where did God tell Adam that he sinned? He just warned him: "Don't eat because otherwise you'll die". God did NOT say: "Don't eat because that would be a sin" or "Don't eat because I won't like that."

God did know, so, moot question.

Yes, but I presumed that God's acts are in some way understandable to us. If God just knows and no one else can know, then all questions are moot.

Further, people today often assume that "knowledge of G&E" simply means factual awareness of it. "Knowledge" in Hebrew has a deeper connotation. It is a more intimate and person connection. Notice that "know" is used as a euphemism for sex in some passages. This isn't about simple factual awareness of right and wrong - it's about a personal connection to it. And the only way to have a personal connection to right and wrong includes doing something wrong. That's what "knowledge of G&E" is about - actually doing something evil. That's what was forbidden, not just factual awareness.

Is this interpretation consistent with the content of the story? Genesis literally describes how eating from the tree 'opened their eyes' and gave them awareness of their nakedness and sexual desire. I would interpret this so that the tree really gave awareness of Good and Evil, not just experience.

 

[ptamper]

They were told the rules. God says you guys you do what you want. You have a good time. But whatever you do. Dont eat that apple.

And they had all of this garden whch was like amazing place to have good time in. Yet they choose the fruit. Now God says. I warned about this. And God has mercy. He could have smited them. But no. God says. Look just get out of here.

I cant see why there is a complaint about this

 

[busterdog]

They were told the rules. God says you guys you do what you want. You have a good time. But whatever you do. Dont eat that apple.

And they had all of this garden whch was like amazing place to have good time in. Yet they choose the fruit. Now God says. I warned about this. And God has mercy. He could have smited them. But no. God says. Look just get out of here.

I cant see why there is a complaint about this

Clearsky seems to be looking at it from the perspective of, if it was inevitable, could it be wrong? I don't know how we really answer a loaded question like that. As you suggest disobedience is disobedience. That is an evil choice.

I would flee to another perspective on the question. Adam progresses from a perfect existence of being cared for to a particular kind of fruit to feed himself to a life of sweat to feed himself. Apart from whether it was fair, it does seem from the pattern of the text that Adam seperated himself from something extremely beneficial to him. He chose a means of being cared for, a means of being fed.

As for Adam perhaps not quite deserving his fate because of mere curiosity, this may not be far from the truth. Was there enough grace for Adam to recover before he was exiled to a life of agriculture? Since Adam hid from and then prevaricated before God, maybe that was another missed opportunity. Ostensibly, grace was available from the lamb "slain before the foundation of the world." Certainly his lack of immediate repentance made him more "deserving." Certainly it was yet another choice for man to do for himself, rather than seek the grace and provision of God.

 

[HypnoToad]

The question is: Was Adam's choice a choice between Good and Evil? According to Scripture, it was a choice of death for knowledge. This is not necessarily a sin. He could not choose between God and Evil because he had no knowledge of Good and Evil before eating from the tree.

It never says they had no factual awareness of right & wrong, again you're using modern English definitions on ancient Hebrew words.

And it was a sin - he disobeyed God, that is sin.

"If I covered my transgressions as Adam ...," - Job 31:33.

" ... after the similitude of Adam's transgression," - Rom.5:14.

Yes, but I presumed that God's acts are in some way understandable to us. If God just knows and no one else can know, then all questions are moot.

Don't know what that's got to do with your question and my response to it.

Is this interpretation consistent with the content of the story? Genesis literally describes how eating from the tree 'opened their eyes' and gave them awareness of their nakedness and sexual desire. I would interpret this so that the tree really gave awareness of Good and Evil, not just experience.

Where do you see "awareness of sexual desire"? Further, it doesn't make sense that they didn't have factual awareness that they didn't have any clothes - they weren't blind before the fall, they could plainly see each other and that they didn't have any clothes on. It's the feeling of shame that they didn't have before.

 

[busterdog]

quote=ClearSky;43406072

I also think that dominion requires free will and free will is not possible without the ability to choose, and especially choose between Good and Evil.

The prevailing wisdom.

The question is: Was Adam's choice a choice between Good and Evil? According to Scripture, it was a choice of death for knowledge. This is not necessarily a sin. He could not choose between God and Evil because he had no knowledge of Good and Evil before eating from the tree.

Took a shot at this with Tansy. Disobedience seems evil. Certainly had that effect. "Good and Evil" is translated as "blessing and calamity" in the Amplified Bible.

Hmm, where did God tell Adam that he sinned? He just warned him: "Don't eat because otherwise you'll die". God did NOT say: "Don't eat because that would be a sin" or "Don't eat because I won't like that."

How else do you get a curse? Would you say it is far to judge the matter based upon results to relieve any other difficult questions? Honestly, that is how I see grace in this current existence in 2008. Its just a better deal.

Yes, but I presumed that God's acts are in some way understandable to us. If God just knows and no one else can know, then all questions are moot.

That's the question. How much as been revealed to us and what do we do with it?

Is this interpretation consistent with the content of the story? Genesis literally describes how eating from the tree 'opened their eyes' and gave them awareness of their nakedness and sexual desire. I would interpret this so that the tree really gave awareness of Good and Evil, not just experience.

That is a big question. What were their eyes opened to. Certainly their failings made them ashamed. The realized they were vulnerable. Look at Gen. 6. If fallen angels have such a strong desire for human flesh, you wonder what they might have been covering up about in Gen. 3.

 

[ptamper]

As for Adam perhaps not quite deserving his fate because of mere curiosity, this may not be far from the truth. Was there enough grace for Adam to recover before he was exiled to a life of agriculture? Since Adam hid from and then prevaricated before God, maybe that was another missed opportunity. Ostensibly, grace was available from the lamb "slain before the foundation of the world." Certainly his lack of immediate repentance made him more "deserving." Certainly it was yet another choice for man to do for himself, rather than seek the grace and provision of God.

Yes. This good analysis.

For curious I read very clearly as evil. I know guys just like this situation. They are told very clearly- dont smash things. dont kick people or torture dogs. And yet they do this thing because they are "curious"..They want to see what its like. The same goes for the types who sleep with other guys. This is all the same.

And it is given to us in easy form in this garden.

They are making a choice for this. THey choose wrong instead of right. THat is the essential choice whcih makes us different from monkeys.

 

[ClearSky]

For curious I read very clearly as evil. I know guys just like this situation. They are told very clearly- dont smash things. dont kick people or torture dogs. And yet they do this thing because they are "curious"..They want to see what its like. The same goes for the types who sleep with other guys. This is all the same.

Well, kicking people and torturing dogs is certainly anything else but "curiosity". Curiosity is commonly considered good, not evil.

The exile from the garden and from eternal life was maybe more a consequence than a punishment. Maybe for living eternally you have to refrain from certain things, for instance from practicing free will and curiosity. Maybe, free will and eternal life is incompatible. Do angels have free will?