6 point proof for the post trib rapture

[onwingsaseagles]

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

 

[Azeke]

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

I recommend a study of who revelations was wrote to! (hint see Daniel people) The seven Jewish assemblies are all related to the royal nation called out of darkness from among the gentiles, related to the tabernacle in the wilderness, on through to the rich and fat temple of Solomon. How many OT references! but your their replacement right?
Right now their scattered and blinded.

Nothing to do with those complete in Christ the one twain new man.

Azezke.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I recommend a study of who revelations was wrote to! (hint see Daniel people) The seven Jewish assemblies are all related to the royal nation called out of darkness from among the gentiles, related to the tabernacle in the wilderness, on through to the rich and fat temple of Solomon. How many OT references! but your their replacement right?
Right now their scattered and blinded.

Nothing to do with those complete in Christ the one twain new man.

Azezke.

I do not believe in ''replacement theology''so if that is what you were inferring then stand corrected,if it is not what you were inferring then I apologize.

I do believe we have been grafted in and yes out of twain he has made one new man.

But that is not the point of this thread.the point of this thread is that the RAPTURE is at the POST TRIB 2ND COMING OF CHRIST.

And there are 6 biblical point that prove that,there are more but I have started with these.

 

[Qvashti]

If you look at the rapture as 2 events, the first at the beginning of tribulation for the fruit that's ripe at that time (1st harvest) and after the tribulation for those how took a bit more to get serious about the faith. Scripture talks about both. The first he comes in the clouds ( in secret as a theif) to get the overcomers; the second he comes on the clouds (in full view) with the overcomer saints to fight at armageden. At that time all that are left will be gathered up along with the dead in christ.

 

[zeke37]

the rapture is not two events but one...post trib.....when the dead are raised......after the trouble of that time.....read 1Thes4 but start at verse 13, as that sets the thought.....where are the dead?.....the elect are gathered after, (not precede) their Raising....so pre trib MUST be incorrect.


I was pre trib for a small amount of time...lol.



way too much evidence for post trib.



remember that Satan comes first to fool the world....and a pre trib position with a post trib reality would set one up to worship the first Jesus to arrive, which will be Satan in disguise.


in His service
c

 

[Terral]

Hi Onwings:

Onwings >> 6 point proof for the post trib rapture: #1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

These passages say no such thing. Mr Onwings does not know the difference between Christ’s Second ‘Prophetic Coming’ (Matt. 24:30-31) at the “END of the Age” and His ‘Mystery Coming’ for our ‘Body of Christ’ to START the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. My thread describing the difference is here and Ownwings is invited to offer his rebuttals. Paul connects ‘our’ translation to immortality to ‘The Mystery’ saying,

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Corinthians 15:51-53.

‘Our’ mystery trumpet sounds off ‘behind’ John in Revelation 1:10 when the “Lord’s Day” (Day of the Lord) BEGINS to start the same 1000 Year Period that Satan and the evil members of his body are chained in the pit. God binds the devil in the pit during the same ‘times and epochs’ (1Thes 5:1-2) period that He restores the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) ‘and’ during the same 1000 Year Day of the Lord that ‘we’ rule with Christ from heaven ‘and’ from the same heavenly seats vacated by Satan and his evil forces of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12). Our mystery rapture takes place in the very near future with Christ’s ‘mystery’ coming for His body. However, Christ’s Prophetic Second Coming (Matt. 24:30-31) is still 1000 Years in the future ‘after’ Elijah has returned to restore all things and ‘after’ the antichrist has made Israel's restored kingdom DESOLATE. The diagram depicting these events looks like this:

The Old Testament Prophets stand in the “Holy of Holies” of Scripture and see very clearly into the 1000 Year Day of the Lord shaded in light blue, but they see nothing inside our current 2000 Year Mystery Time shaded in red. Find ‘Today’ on the 7000 Year timeline to realize we are about to be Raptured (1Thes 4:16-17) at the ‘First Resurrection’ that is ‘our’ “Day of Redemption” (Eph. 4:30) so that ‘we’ (Body of Christ) rule with Christ (like Peter and the Bride) for 1000 years. Revelation gives you a big clue to solve this mystery, saying,

“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus (Peter’s Early Rains Bride) and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.” Revelation 20:4-5.”

“Our” mystery rapture marks the ‘start’ of the 1000 Years, as we appear before John as Christ’s brand new body in Revelation 1:10-19 to START the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. Since ‘someone’ is going to rule WITH CHRIST FOR THE 1000 YEARS, then obviously ‘someone’ is resurrected 1000 years BEFORE the END of the Age (Matt. 24:3+) prophecies even begin to be fulfilled. If our Mystery “Body of Christ” is gathered ‘after’ the Great Tribulation, then how are ‘we’ going to rule with Christ for the 1000 Years? :0) No sir. Paul teaches that ‘we’ (Body of Christ) return with Christ IN GLORY, which means ‘we’ have already been with Christ IN HEAVEN for the 1000 Years, ‘before’ returning with Him in glory.

“Therefore IF you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed (Matt. 24:30-31), then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.” Colossians 3:1-4.

We (Body of Christ) are God’s heavenly replacements for Satan and the members of his evil body chained to START the 1000 Year Day of the Lord and obviously there are not 1000 years between the END of the Great Tribulation and the END of the Age taking place at about the same time. Therefore, Onwing’s timing is off only by the same 1000 years contained within the Day of the Lord itself. :0)

Onwings >> #2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

No sir. This is ‘Onwings’ making these bold assertions without even quoting one word from God ‘and’ without giving us one word of commentary for ‘his’ errant explanation. The ‘Elect’ gathered at the END of the Age about 1000 Years from today is saved by obeying the “Eternal Gospel” (Rev. 14:6), which was highlighted in my diagram above in yellow (upper right). By the time ‘we’ return with Christ in glory, then ‘we’ will have already been with Him for the same 1000 Years contained within the Day of the Lord. Everything that Christ tells the Disciples in Matthew 24/Mark 13 is a matter of “Prophecy” seen by the prophets, but everything “Paul” talks about (1Thes. 4:16-17, 1Cor. 15:51-53*) is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” like our gospel (Rom. 16:25), our church (Eph. 3:4-6, 5:32) and our translation to immortality*. Onwings is confusing the END of this current 2000 Year Mystery Time and the END of the Dispensation of God’s Grace (Eph. 3:2) on this earth with the END of the Age taking place 1000 years LATER (Matt. 24:3-31) without knowing the difference . . .

Onwings >> #3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

Paul is describing ‘our’ mystery trumpet that ENDS this current 2000 Year Mystery Time that sounds off ‘behind’ John in Rev. 1:10. What is Onwing’s explanation for this trumpet sounding off behind John that STARTS the 1000 Years way back here in Revelation 1? :0) No sir. Our mystery translation to immortality is the “First Resurrection,” while the Second Resurrection (Rev 20:11-15) ENDS the same 1000 year Day of the Lord.

Onwings >> #4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

No sir. Christ is NOT addressing ‘us’ (BODY of Christ = Church #2 here) anywhere in the Four Gospels where He was sent to Israel ONLY. Our mystery church begin with Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:15-16), which means Christ could NOT have been addressing ‘our’ nonexistent BODY of Christ anywhere in the Four Gospels at all. “Rightly Dividing” the word of truth means placing dividers (veils) between Christ’s commands and prophecies for His Kingdom BRIDE (Church #1 here) and His Mystery “BODY of Christ” (Church #2) still in the earth today as we speak. Onwings’ error is that he does NOT see the ‘two dispensations’ (Bride and Body), as he mixes ‘Prophecy’ for the Kingdom Bride with the ‘Mystery’ for our Body of Christ without knowing the difference . . .

Onwings >> #5 john 6:39, 40, 44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

By the time of the ‘last day,’ then ‘we’ (Body of Christ) will already have ruled with Christ for the entire 1000 Years contained within the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. You have allowed Peter’s simple teaching to escape ‘your’ notice:

“But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day . . . But the Day of the Lord (1Thes 5:1-2, 2Thes. 2:2) will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” 2Peter 3:8+10.

Onwings have FAILED to give the proper “1000 Years” to the “Day of the Lord” that only begins with John in Revelation 1:10 with ‘our’ mystery trumpet (1Cor 15:52, 1Thes 4:16) sounding off ‘behind’ him. John is telling the story of PROPHECY very much seen by the OT Prophets ‘and’ he could NOT see Paul’s ‘mystery’ trumpet, because of the ‘veil’ separating Paul’s “Holy Place” Epistles from the Kingdom “Court” Epistles shown here. Christ descends with the trumpet of God and the voice of the Archangel with which He then CHAINS the devil and his evil cronies for the same 1000 Years contained within the Day of the Lord. The ‘archangel’ is mentioned only twice in Scripture with the other reference connected to the dispute about the “Body of Moses”. However, ‘this time’ Christ will be coming for His “Body of Christ” (that's us) prepared over the course of this past 2000 Years to START the 1000 Year Day of the Lord, so ‘we’ can return with Christ in glory at the END of the Age some 1000 Years LATER. The “Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theorists” are off by the same 1000 Years contained inside the Day of the Lord, as ANY explanation connecting ‘our’ Mystery Gathering to the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21, Rev 7:14) is OFF by the same 1000 Years contained within the Day of the Lord itself. Your New Testament has a blood witness (Pauline Epistles) ‘and’ a water witness (Kingdom Epistles), as Christ came in both blood and water (1Jn 5:6-8). In short, Onwings is tossing all the elements of Prophecy and Paul’s “The Mystery” together into a single pot to take out things tasting good to Onwings and without ‘rightly dividing’ anything at all.

Onwings >> #6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.

No sir. Onwings is saying these things after simply pasting ‘Rev 20:4-6’ to his Opening Post. :0) “Our” mystery rapture has NOTHING to do with any tribulation, which is the reason Paul tells the Thessalonians (and ‘us&#8217 to live a quiet life and to work with our hands (1Thes. 4:10-11), before describing ‘our’ Rapture that ‘starts’ the 1000 Year day of the Lord. Since 1000 years separate the first and second resurrections, then obviously Onwings has failed to include the 1000 Year Day of the Lord ‘between’ those two resurrections.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Azeke]

I do not believe in ''replacement theology''so if that is what you were inferring then stand corrected,if it is not what you were inferring then I apologize.

I do believe we have been grafted in and yes out of twain he has made one new man.

But that is not the point of this thread.the point of this thread is that the RAPTURE is at the POST TRIB 2ND COMING OF CHRIST.

And there are 6 biblical point that prove that,there are more but I have started with these.

The new man is not a body of Jew, and Gentiles, like the body was within the national restorational period which was probational! Jew and Gentiles were eqaul in common salvation within the seed of the woman, but within the seed of Abraham the royal seed that became the nation of Israel they held the headship and advatange over the partaking Gentiles, that body was not Eqaul! and it most certainly had both Jew and Gentiles in it.

The new man is Eqaul in all areas and is the only temple that has no connection to the things of the flesh, all spiritual blessings require an all spiritual place with a resurrection that is connected to the one baptism in Eph, no pre, mid or post apply.

Azeke

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Terral,I have been on a few boards and seen a lot of weird stuff,but I think you might have taken the cake with that one.

1,000 year day of the Lord stuff.

 

[Terral]

Hi Onwings:

Onwings >> Terral, I have been on a few boards and seen a lot of weird stuff, but I think you might have taken the cake with that one. 1,000 year day of the Lord stuff.

The devil is chained in the pit (Rev. 20:2) for the same 1000 Years that Elijah is on the earth restoring all things during the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (in blue). How many years are contained in ‘your’ Day of the Lord? 2Peter 3:8-10? :0) Somebody is going to rule with Christ for the entire 1000 Years. Revelation 20:4. Right? We are still talking about a 1000 Year Day of the Lord contained between the TWO Resurrections. The First Resurrection is ‘our’ (Body of Christ) Day of Redemption (Eph. 4:30) ‘and’ the Second Resurrection ENDS the 1000 Years in Revelation 20:11-15. If we rule with Christ for the entire 1000 Years (and we do) to return with Him in glory (Col. 3:4 = we do that too), then our Rapture (1Thes. 4:16-17) STARTS the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (in blue again) ‘and’ all of the “Prophetic” events of Matthew 24:3-31 take place at the END of the same 1000 Year Period. Christ says,

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and THEN the END will come.” Matthew 24:13-14.

Do ‘we’ (Body of Christ) even preach the “Gospel of the Kingdom” in the world today? No! This is the “Gospel of God” (Mark 1:14-15) that Christ Himself preached in the years BEFORE He died for anyone. We preach Paul’s “Word of the Cross” (Gospel #2 here) gospel message in the world ‘today’ during this 2000 Year Mystery Time seen by NONE of the Prophets. Christ could NOT possibly even be talking about ‘our’ Mystery His Body Church of TODAY in Matthew 24, because at that time (30-33 AD) our church DID NOT EVEN EXIST. Christ revealed everything pertaining to Paul’s “The Mystery” AFTER his conversion in Acts 9, when he was given the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” for ‘you Gentiles’ (Eph. 3:1-4). Here is wisdom, Onwings, if you are able to accept it: Our Body of Christ (Church #2 here) gathering to the Lord falls under “The Mystery” umbrella, which Paul told you in 1Corinthians 15:51-53 when he connected this event to ‘the mystery.’ By definition, all of ‘these things’ given to Paul as the ‘wisdom given him’ are ‘hard to understand,’ so the untaught and unstable distort them TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. 2Peter 3:14-16. You have the “Two Gospels” of the NT mixed together ‘and’ you have the “Two Churches” of the NT mixed together into an abomination that God sent to NOBODY. Your Post-Tribulation Commentary ‘does’ match that of other professing Christians, because ‘they too’ have things mixed together that God Himself has put asunder (separated). The true definition of ‘mystery’ (musterion) looks like this:

Vine’s Expository Dictionary Of NT Words:

musterion primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the English word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known ONLY by Divine Revelation, and is made known in a manner and at A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY who are ‘illumined’ by HIS SPIRIT. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth REVEALED. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the MYSTERY which hath been HID from ALL AGES and GENERATIONS: but NOW hath it been MANIFESTED to His saints" (Col_1:26, RV). "It is used of . . .”

Paul uses this term (#3466) 20 times to describe things previously “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9) but “NOW” revealed through his ministry as the “Apostle OF GENTILES” to make Israel JEALOUS (Deut. 32:21, Rom. 10:19, 11:11). It is NOT that these things are ‘mysterious’ at all, but every topic under Paul’s “The Mystery” Umbrella (my work = the red pill) is ‘outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension’ AND ‘can be made known ONLY by Divine Revelation, and is made known in a MANNER and A TIME appointed BY GOD HIMSELF.’ In other words, if God has not tapped Onwings on the shoulder to say, “Now is the time for you to see My Hidden Wisdom,” then you will toss everything (Prophecy and Mystery) into a single pot to stir everything around into your own man-made hocus pocus concoction like EVERYONE blinded by Denominationalism.

The requirement above says you MUST be ‘illuminated by HIS SPIRIT’ to see what Peter calls ‘these things’ according to the ‘wisdom given him.’ Every topic connected to Paul’s “The Mystery” implies that knowledge is being WITHHELD with the Scriptural significance of TRUTH being REVEALED. At the time Christ was giving His Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24), then ALL of ‘these things’ were still HIDDEN IN GOD, which includes the TRUTH of our Mystery Gospel, our Mystery Church and our Mystery Translation to Immortality. Peter’s Kingdom Bride Church is the one ‘you CAN see,’ but Paul’s Mystery Body of Christ is the one ‘you currently CANNOT see’ as completely separate and distinct from the “Kingdom Dispensation” that John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve started in the Four Gospels. Denominationalism by definition mixes the blood (Paul) and water (Peter) dispensations together in over 2000 different ways ‘and’ your eschatological explanations agree with even a vast minority of professing Christians that fall under the “Mystery of Iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7-12 = Denominationalism) umbrella.

Have you seen “The Matrix” with Morpheus, Trinity and Neo where two of these witnesses are attempting to wake up the third? :0) Your mixing of Prophecy (blue pill) and the Mystery (red pill) is based upon the theology of those inside and blinded by The Matrix. Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy and Protestantism represent the religions of the Architect, Agents and everyone yet to be unplugged. I am standing in the shoes of Morpheus and Trinity saying “Knock, knock, Neo,” and “Follow the White Rabbit.” :0) You can begin ‘rightly dividing’ the things of Prophecy from Paul’s “The Mystery” by taking the ‘red pill,’ or you can take the blue pill to go back to sleep and wake back up in your own bed prepared by Modern Day Denominationalism. I will never tell you that it will be easy, but will guarantee you that my testimony is “The Truth.” This is the very reason I can quote every word of your OP to offer my rebuttal, but you can only offer two sentences for a defending argument. :0)

God's Hidden Wisdom and 'The Truth' is much stranger to those blinded by Denominationalism than fiction . . .

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

 

[holdon]

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

I would think that if you would read 1 Thess 4:15-17 you would see that the believers go up to meet the Lord. That at least is what "will be caught up" means. The Lord first comes FOR His saints (to bring them to Him) in order to come WITH His saints in glory.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

The gathering of the elect concerns the people of Israel: they will be brought back from the ends of the earth where they were scattered. And since you say loosely "at that time" you don't seem to realize that it is AFTER Christ has already come, as so clearly stated in Mt 24 and Mk 13, so that it cannot apply to the saints coming WITH Christ in the preceding verses.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

The last trump of 1 Cor 15 has nothing to do with the one Mt 24. And as I said earlier the trump of Mt 24 will be heard AFTER Christ has come already, so that it cannot apply to the saints that come with Him.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

If you read Luke 17:37 you will see the answer as to where they will go: destruction. This is the reaping of the wicked, the judgment of the living and has nothing to do with the rapture of the believers!

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

The "last day" is not just one moment. The "last day" of Jn 5:24 is lasting already 2000 years! And Christ belongs to the first resurrection, so that "day" lasts already 2000 years as well....

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

No, Rev 20:4-6 does not say that the First resurrection is after the tribulation: does Christ not belong to the First resurrection? 1 Cor 15:23 says so. The First does not mean a specific time, but rather a quality.

I think this subject belongs in eschatology.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

holden,the fact is we will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

The bible clearly tell us when this will be ''AT HIS COMING''which is after the tribulation is over.

The bible also states that we will be raptured ''AT THE LAST TRUMP''

Regardless if you believe it is the same as the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24 or not it can not be B4 that trump because it is THE LAST TRUMP.

Seeing how the trump in Matthew is after the tribulation and the LAST TRUMP is either that trump or after the trump in Matthew ''THE RAPTURE can not possibly be b4 the tribulation.

Not with a biblical view of the event.

 

[Ben12]

Great Tribulation is not a period of time; it means great pressure. God wants overcomers; not escapist; that is all the rapture is; people who want to escape this world that God created to change them though trial and tribulation. The whole rapture concept is more faulty religious bias. His will, will be done on this earth as it is in heaven; so why do you want to fly away into outer space some where?

 

[zeke37]

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles
#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

holdon-I would think that if you would read 1 Thess 4:15-17 you would see that the believers go up to meet the Lord. That at least is what "will be caught up" means. The Lord first comes FOR His saints (to bring them to Him) in order to come WITH His saints in glory.

zeke-dude, your a little mixed up here
the subject is given in verse 13....where are the dead...they are with HIM now, and will return with HIM at that last trump.

caugt up does not mean go up in the air.
it means seized/taken by force.

air is simply the breath of life that God gives...the other body that we have...the spiritual/celestial body that all get upon flesh death as told in 1Cor15. That is the body with which the dead Come...that is the air. Actually part of the trumpet blast...what fills us...

and when the dead Come, the elect alive are Gathered together with them...no one is going up anywhere...no one is leaving the planet, unless you die in the flesh.


#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

The gathering of the elect concerns the people of Israel: they will be brought back from the ends of the earth where they were scattered. And since you say loosely "at that time" you don't seem to realize that it is AFTER Christ has already come, as so clearly stated in Mt 24 and Mk 13, so that it cannot apply to the saints coming WITH Christ in the preceding verses.

the elect Gathered are the elect who are alive at His return as stated in 1Cor15. They are Gathered to the elect in heaven....from the ends of heaven to the ends of the earth, the elect shall be gathered together.

the elect are from the 12 trines, including the scattered tribes, the stick of the house of Israel and the stick of the house of Judah...

the northern 10 tribes became Christian nations...and we know that ALL 144,000 are Christians because they follow the Lamb where ever He goes...and they are sealed with the truth before the first trump even sounds.

the elect are Gathered and make their way to Jerusalem in an instant...gathered together. the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ...the first fruits.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

The last trump of 1 Cor 15 has nothing to do with the one Mt 24. And as I said earlier the trump of Mt 24 will be heard AFTER Christ has come already, so that it cannot apply to the saints that come with Him.

lol, nothing to do with it!!!...it is the same trump.

the trump of Mat 24 will be heard WHEN He comes.....which is AFTER THE TRIB OF THOSE DAYS.


#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

If you read Luke 17:37 you will see the answer as to where they will go: destruction. This is the reaping of the wicked, the judgment of the living and has nothing to do with the rapture of the believers!

Wheat and tares would suggest otherwise. Since all are living then, and there is no pre trib raptured group, all who you believe to be pre trib raptured are in fact living, and will go to judgement...but for God's elect, that Judgememt brings rewards, not punnishment.

the Gathering of the believers (elect only) is AT His return, not before...it is after the trib of hat time, not before...it is after the son of Perdition be revealed and the apostasy of the church happens (thanks to that son of Perdition-Satan himself cast from heaven to the earth)

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

The "last day" is not just one moment. The "last day" of Jn 5:24 is lasting already 2000 years! And Christ belongs to the first resurrection, so that "day" lasts already 2000 years as well....

last days..yes..but as for one specific plast day....that is called something repeatedly in scripture...the Day of the Lord, the Lord's Day...and that has not been happening since is Sacrifice...but will be a time as no other time in history...a time yet to come, not one that we are already in.

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

No, Rev 20:4-6 does not say that the First resurrection is after the tribulation: does Christ not belong to the First resurrection? 1 Cor 15:23 says so. The First does not mean a specific time, but rather a quality.

I think this subject belongs in eschatology.

the first Ressurection is after the trib....but all who have died already have a new body, just not on earth yet...and there are saints who have did (the dead in Christ) and there are saints who are alive on earth (elect)

they live today, both around His throne (in heaven) and under His throne (on earth)
the first fruits (those that belong to the first resurrection) have been accumulating since before His death on the cross (John the baptist) and include Messiah as the best first, and those that believe in Him and havebeen chosen before the foundations of this world age for their destiny..their purpose...

while I do not believe that any are martyred in the trib of Jacob's trouble except the two olive trees of Rev11, I agree with the rest of the OP

in His service
c

 

[holdon]

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles
#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

holdon-I would think that if you would read 1 Thess 4:15-17 you would see that the believers go up to meet the Lord. That at least is what "will be caught up" means. The Lord first comes FOR His saints (to bring them to Him) in order to come WITH His saints in glory.

zeke-dude, your a little mixed up here
the subject is given in verse 13....where are the dead...they are with HIM now, and will return with HIM at that last trump.

caugt up does not mean go up in the air.
it means seized/taken by force.

air is simply the breath of life that God gives...the other body that we have...the spiritual/celestial body that all get upon flesh death as told in 1Cor15. That is the body with which the dead Come...that is the air. Actually part of the trumpet blast...what fills us...

and when the dead Come, the elect alive are Gathered together with them...no one is going up anywhere...no one is leaving the planet, unless you die in the flesh.


#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

The gathering of the elect concerns the people of Israel: they will be brought back from the ends of the earth where they were scattered. And since you say loosely "at that time" you don't seem to realize that it is AFTER Christ has already come, as so clearly stated in Mt 24 and Mk 13, so that it cannot apply to the saints coming WITH Christ in the preceding verses.

the elect Gathered are the elect who are alive at His return as stated in 1Cor15. They are Gathered to the elect in heaven....from the ends of heaven to the ends of the earth, the elect shall be gathered together.

the elect are from the 12 trines, including the scattered tribes, the stick of the house of Israel and the stick of the house of Judah...

the northern 10 tribes became Christian nations...and we know that ALL 144,000 are Christians because they follow the Lamb where ever He goes...and they are sealed with the truth before the first trump even sounds.

the elect are Gathered and make their way to Jerusalem in an instant...gathered together. the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ...the first fruits.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

The last trump of 1 Cor 15 has nothing to do with the one Mt 24. And as I said earlier the trump of Mt 24 will be heard AFTER Christ has come already, so that it cannot apply to the saints that come with Him.

lol, nothing to do with it!!!...it is the same trump.

the trump of Mat 24 will be heard WHEN He comes.....which is AFTER THE TRIB OF THOSE DAYS.


#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

If you read Luke 17:37 you will see the answer as to where they will go: destruction. This is the reaping of the wicked, the judgment of the living and has nothing to do with the rapture of the believers!

Wheat and tares would suggest otherwise. Since all are living then, and there is no pre trib raptured group, all who you believe to be pre trib raptured are in fact living, and will go to judgement...but for God's elect, that Judgememt brings rewards, not punnishment.

the Gathering of the believers (elect only) is AT His return, not before...it is after the trib of hat time, not before...it is after the son of Perdition be revealed and the apostasy of the church happens (thanks to that son of Perdition-Satan himself cast from heaven to the earth)

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

The "last day" is not just one moment. The "last day" of Jn 5:24 is lasting already 2000 years! And Christ belongs to the first resurrection, so that "day" lasts already 2000 years as well....

last days..yes..but as for one specific plast day....that is called something repeatedly in scripture...the Day of the Lord, the Lord's Day...and that has not been happening since is Sacrifice...but will be a time as no other time in history...a time yet to come, not one that we are already in.

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

No, Rev 20:4-6 does not say that the First resurrection is after the tribulation: does Christ not belong to the First resurrection? 1 Cor 15:23 says so. The First does not mean a specific time, but rather a quality.

I think this subject belongs in eschatology.

the first Ressurection is after the trib....but all who have died already have a new body, just not on earth yet...and there are saints who have did (the dead in Christ) and there are saints who are alive on earth (elect)

they live today, both around His throne (in heaven) and under His throne (on earth)
the first fruits (those that belong to the first resurrection) have been accumulating since before His death on the cross (John the baptist) and include Messiah as the best first, and those that believe in Him and havebeen chosen before the foundations of this world age for their destiny..their purpose...

while I do not believe that any are martyred in the trib of Jacob's trouble except the two olive trees of Rev11, I agree with the rest of the OP

in His service
c

This does belong in the Eschatology forum and I answered to it there.

And of course you're entitled to your opinion, even if it is an erroneous one, which it clearly is....

 

[Ben12]

Everywhere! Everything! Temptations, tears, heartaches, unfaithful friends and brethren, loss of property, loss of business, perils, hateful neighbors, fiery furnaces, dens of lions, rugged crosses, and isles of exile! All things! All things! All things, too numerous to mention, are working for the good of God’s elect, and are adding, though unseen now, an exceeding and eternal weight of glory to us."


Now — that is every passage in the whole New Testament in which the word "tribulation" appears! Twice it speaks of the great tribulation that came upon the Jews when God abolished the Old Testament order of Law and Sacrifices by destroying the Jewish nation, temple, and priesthood. Once tribulation is pronounced upon those who persecute the saints. Once Jesus promises great tribulation to those believers in the churches who commit spiritual fornication. AND IN EVERY OTHER PASSAGE THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKS OF THE TRIBULATION WE ENDURE AS GOD’S ELECT!

Tribulation is a word that the Holy Spirit uses in the book of Revelation only in relation to saints

We cannot even get to the Holy of Holies until the plagues or calamities are complete in our life.

"They returned again…confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:21-22).
"Tribulation" has been brought into the English language from the Latin. The verb is tribulare, which means, "to press, to oppress, to afflict." The Latins had a tribulum, a threshing sledge which separated grain from chaff. It consisted of a wooden platform studded underneath with sharp flints or iron teeth. As this instrument passed over the pile of grain the wheat was separated from the straw. We can well understand how a man undergoing afflictions would compare his sufferings with those which would be inflicted if such an instrument passed over him. Now, how can a son of God rejoice in such grinding pressure?
The idea that the "Great Tribulation" is going to be poured out upon the world is a stupidity that contradicts every scripture passage on tribulation in the whole New Testament! Perhaps we have been casual in reading the very words of the Lord Jesus to His own, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (Jn. 16:33). Mark the connection of thought! He clearly did not say, "On this earth the world is going to get the tribulation

"But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel. Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. When thou passeth through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: and when thou walketh through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour…" (Isa. 43:1-3).


Not one son of God can escape the process! You can be a nice sweet Christian and go to heaven when you die without suffering or tribulation. But you cannot be a son apart from chastening and tribulation! You can be saved by grace and blessed with all the free gifts of God without testing and trial


Under pressure and bruising we turn to the Lord in a deeper, more intense way, and the Spirit moves mightily on our behalf to guide, comfort, encourage, rebuke, teach, correct, counsel, reveal, instruct, develop, strengthen, mature and perfect us.

All of them have endured the strippings, purgings, prunings, threshings, refinings, and purifying dealings of God and have been thoroughly chastened and corrected by the Father.
It is interesting to note that the term "great tribulation" appears only twice in the book of Revelation, and neither time does it apply to the world. In both cases it has to do with the Lord’s own people! Jesus said he would cast the spiritual fornicators of the church age into great tribulation, unless they repented. What do you suppose would be the purpose of the great tribulation? Why, bless your heart, would it not be to influence and motivate them to repent! And then John sees a great multitude that has come out of great tribulation. A wonderful transformation has taken place in them through the process of the great of the Lamb." They were already God’s people, and were not now washed from the filth of the flesh they walked in before they were saved, rather, they were washed from the defilement of religion and religious systems! As a result of their going through that great tribulation, God’s purpose was accomplished in their lives. Cleansed and purified by the Lamb, they were transformed and brought very near to His throne of love, grace, and power. JPE
This "great tribulation" has lasted throughout the two thousand years since Christ came and began to form His body in the earth. All through the age He has called out people after people, company after company, from the apostate church systems of their day, and now, praise His name, there is a great multitude that no man can number!


Now — that is every passage in the whole New Testament in which the word "tribulation" appears! Twice it speaks of the great tribulation that came upon the Jews when God abolished the Old Testament order of Law and Sacrifices by destroying the Jewish nation, temple, and priesthood. Once tribulation is pronounced upon those who persecute the saints. Once Jesus promises great tribulation to those believers in the churches who commit spiritual fornication. AND IN EVERY OTHER PASSAGE THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKS OF THE TRIBULATION WE ENDURE AS GOD’S ELECT!

Tribulation is a word that the Holy Spirit uses in the book of Revelation only in relation to saints

We cannot even get to the Holy of Holies until the plagues or calamities are complete in our life.



Were we not all there at one time? To these the Lord Jesus said, "Behold, I will cast her into a bed (of trouble), and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds" (Rev. 2:22). It is interesting to note that the term "great tribulation" appears only twice in the book of Revelation, and neither time does it apply to the world. In both cases it has to do with the Lord’s own people! Jesus said he would cast the spiritual fornicators of the church age into great tribulation, unless they repented. What do you suppose would be the purpose of the great tribulation? Why, bless your heart, would it not be to influence and motivate them to repent! And then John sees a great multitude that has come out of great tribulation. A wonderful transformation has taken place in them through the process of the great tribulation. They have now "washed their robes" and have "made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They were already God’s people, and were not now washed from the filth of the flesh they walked in before they were saved, rather, they were washed from the defilement of religion and religious systems! As a result of their going through that great tribulation, God’s purpose was accomplished in their lives. Cleansed and purified by the Lamb, they were transformed and brought very near to His throne of love, grace, and power.

White robes in the book of Revelation denote "the righteous acts of the saints" (Rev. 19:8) These are the ones "coming out" of "the great tribulation" having their robes washed in the blood of the Lamb! Praise God! It is His own harvest! How many are there? "A great multitude that no man could number." It is the "great" tribulation because of the "great" multitude! No man can experience more than his own tribulation. This "great tribulation" has lasted throughout the two thousand years since Christ came and began to form His body in the earth. All through the age He has called out people after people, company after company, from the apostate church systems of their day, and now, praise His name, there is a great multitude that no man can number!

This is why above Christ waited 2000 years to complete His purpose in the earth.

 

[zeke37]

This does belong in the Eschatology forum and I answered to it there.

And of course you're entitled to your opinion, even if it is an erroneous one, which it clearly is....

you answered this post there? No you did not, as I just wrote it yesterday, and there is no reply in the thread in any part of the Theology section.

perhaps you could answer here again....

btw, a pre tribber calling a post tribbers opinion erroneous, is well.....an oxymoron. lol.

in His service
c

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

you answered this post there? No you did not, as I just wrote it yesterday, and there is no reply in the thread in any part of the Theology section.

perhaps you could answer here again....

btw, a pre tribber calling a post tribbers opinion erroneous, is well.....an oxymoron. lol.

in His service
c

I would agree. Kind of like roman catholicism agree with Christian protestism.

http://christianforums.com/t6831283-how-different-would-christianity-be-without-the-pope.html

 

[Qvashti]

 

[yeshuasavedme]

#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

You miss the message, I'm afraid, which is committed only to the namesake people and the message is called "living oracles", which teach, as a schoolmaster, the doctrine of Christ from the beginning to the end.

The gathering of "the elect" after the tribulation is of the entire remaining alive Jews, and you will find that gathering and it's purpose explicitely outlined in Ezekiel 20:33-44.

After the Elect namesake people of the second Man name are gathered and purged by the passing under the Rod of Christ returned, then the Gentiles are gathered also, and the sheep Gentiles are given second birth in Spirit with the remaining alive Jews, to live on earth and populate it for the millennial reign as the Blessed of YHWH.

seven years before that time of gathering of the elect people of the New Man name and the gathering of the goat and sheep Gentiles, the Church was taken out of the midst of earth.

The Church was taken according to the oracle of the call to gather outlined in Numbers 10:1-7, and when the two trumpets were sounded twice together, from heaven, then the "elders"/ancients [those gone before] at the first trump and and the entire congregation of YHWH living alive on earth [at the second trump] gathered at the "door" to meet Jesus in regenerated bodies.

They will be called for that gathering when He gives the call to have them gathered and the trumpets sounded, and Psalm 50 tells about that time of the gathering to Himself of His people before He punishes the inhabitants of the earth, as vindicator.

Isaiah 26:19-21 tells us the dead rise first, and then the living, when YHWH gives the call to "come, My people"...enter in and shut your doors behind you, for YHWH comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth..."

Psalm 75:2,3, tells us in no uncertain terms that the earth will be judged -and the orders of rule dissolved- only after the gathering together of His people to Himself.

John 14:3-5 tells us that He will come to get us and to take us to be with Him where He is.

Leviticus 8 tells us where the adopted sons of the Firstborn and High Priest of earth go, when He calls us to com,e and dresses us in the Garments of Salvation, which is the regenerated body given to we who are cleansed in souls by His blood Atonement, and who are born again in His Living Spirit from above. Donning our priesthood garments we enter into His holies and celebrate our consecration in the presense of the Firstborn for seven days..........meanwhile, back down on earth, the great tribulation is commenced.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles [abc's] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

 

[Isaiah5417amen]

Escape Thither, ​

Finally, the angel said, Haste thee, escape thither, for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. As shared in (Genesis 19:22) ​

Do not forget those words, escape thither, for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. This shares the faithfulness of God. ​

Psalm 71:2 ​

Deliver me

in thy righteousness, and cause me to escape: incline thine ear unto me, and save me.

Psalm 124:7-8
Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers. the snare is broken, and we are escaped. 8Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.​

Luke 21:34-36
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
_______________________________________​

Almighty God rescued the Righteous (Noah, and his family! Lot, and his family) prior to his Judgment(Wrath)on those Left Behind! Just as us Saved Born Again(New Creatures)Rapture before the Tribulation(Wrath) ​

Hebrews 13:8 ​

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever ​

Isaiah 26:20-21 ​

(Rapture) ​

Come,my people,enter thou into thy chambers,and shut thy doors about thee hide thyself as it were for a little moment until the indignation be overpast. ​

(Tribulation) ​

For,behold,the LORD cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,the earth also shall disclose her blood,and shall no more cover her slain. ​

Zephaniah 2:3
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.​

The Chosen(Righteous)Born Again(New Creatures)Will be rescued (Raptured) to Heaven(New Jerusalem) with our Wonderful King Jesus Christ in the Miraculous Rapture.​

Don't Be Left Behind.
__________________
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