Do you think that homosexuality is a choice?

[Lupinus]

Actually, you were the one who brought animals into the debate, in post # 291.

Did we forget your post http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42860300&postcount=290

Reasons such as...?

Baptism, salvation, authority of the church, priests/pastors allowed to marry, etc. There are some things very clear cut, some things not, some things misinterpreted. I recall this being a debate about homosexuality though, not on why there are different denominations.

And no, the Bible is not clear on the subject of whether or not homosexuality is a choice, nor is it clear on the subject of whether or not homosexuality is natural or normal. The Bible doesn't mention the fact (yes, it is a fact) that there are many homosexual animals out there, nor does it mention the fact that the word "normal" is subjective, and thus, not everyone considers the same things to be "normal."

Correct. The bible doesn't mention homosexuality among animals because it is irrelevant. They don't have a soul breathed into them nor are they created in Gods image.

 

[savedandhappy1]

So you think that the Bible is more correct on this issue than science is? Since when did the authors of the Bible have even close to as much scientific knowledge as today's scientists do? Seriously, a 2,000-year-old book is not a good reference to look to for scientific facts.

We can't even figure out how to make dirt, and you think that man knows more then God the Creator and His Written Word?

The main thing the authors have in common is they let the Lord speak through them and they put in words the things the Lord wanted us to have to help us run the race that the Lord has placed before us.

I never thought I would see the day that God's Written Word would be cast aside along with.....................well He told us in His Word that these days would come. I just didn't think they would come in my lifetime.

J Vernon McGee notes that...
These are passions of dishonor and disgrace and depravity—regardless of what public opinion is today. Perversion entered into Greek life, and it brought Greece down to the dust. Go over there and look at Greece today. The glory has passed away. Why? These were their sins." (McGee, J. V. Thru the Bible commentary. Nashville: Thomas Nelson)
God abandoned them not only to idolatry, the ultimate expression of man’s spiritual degeneracy, but also to degrading passions, which he identifies in these two verses as homosexuality, the ultimate expression of man’s moral degeneracy.

When man forsakes the AUTHOR of nature,
he inevitably forsakes the ORDER of nature.

http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_126-27.htm#1:26​

 

[HannahBanana]

Did we forget your post http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42860300&postcount=290

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42860300&postcount=290
Oops. Sorry. I honestly didn't mean to overlook that post. I thought I had gone back far enough in the conversation when I saw post #291.

Baptism, salvation, authority of the church, priests/pastors allowed to marry, etc. There are some things very clear cut, some things not, some things misinterpreted. I recall this being a debate about homosexuality though, not on why there are different denominations.

Yet the reason why there are different denominations is the reason why homosexuality is not always considered to be a sin. So I actually am staying on-topic, believe it or not.

Correct. The bible doesn't mention homosexuality among animals because it is irrelevant. They don't have a soul breathed into them nor are they created in Gods image.

How is homosexuality in animals irrelevant to the fact that homosexuality is natural? I've already shown you the definition of the word "natural." Do I really need to show it to you again?

 

[HannahBanana]

We can't even figure out how to make dirt, and you think that man knows more then God the Creator and His Written Word?

The main thing the authors have in common is they let the Lord speak through them and they put in words the things the Lord wanted us to have to help us run the race that the Lord has placed before us.

I never thought I would see the day that God's Written Word would be cast aside along with.....................well He told us in His Word that these days would come. I just didn't think they would come in my lifetime.

J Vernon McGee notes that...
These are passions of dishonor and disgrace and depravity—regardless of what public opinion is today. Perversion entered into Greek life, and it brought Greece down to the dust. Go over there and look at Greece today. The glory has passed away. Why? These were their sins." (McGee, J. V. Thru the Bible commentary. Nashville: Thomas Nelson)
God abandoned them not only to idolatry, the ultimate expression of man’s spiritual degeneracy, but also to degrading passions, which he identifies in these two verses as homosexuality, the ultimate expression of man’s moral degeneracy.

When man forsakes the AUTHOR of nature,
he inevitably forsakes the ORDER of nature.

http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_126-27.htm#1:26​

Science is defined as:

1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding

so are you really trying to say that knowledge is a bad thing?

Also, I don't see why J Vernon McGee's opinion on this whole thing matters. He's just a man, so what makes his opinion any more true than mine?

 

[savedandhappy1]

True. Okay, new argument. Humans invented war, rape, and hatred, so how are we any better than any other animals out there?

Because God breathed life into us and gave us a soul. Because Christ died and rose again to save us, not my dog or my cat. Because God loved us so much that He.........................

I'm sorry you really don't think there is any difference between humans and deer or cows or whatever in the Lords eyes?

Do you believe that Christ took the sins of all animals and all our sins on Himself so that we and they could have eternal life?

 

[HannahBanana]

Because God breathed life into us and gave us a soul. Because Christ died and rose again to save us, not my dog or my cat. Because God loved us so much that He.........................

I'm sorry you really don't think there is any difference between humans and deer or cows or whatever in the Lords eyes?

Do you believe that Christ took the sins of all animals and all our sins on Himself so that we and they could have eternal life?

What makes you think that God doesn't care about animals? What makes you think that living, breathing, loving, caring animals are any more disposable or right to ignore than you or I are?

 

[Lupinus]

Oops. Sorry. I honestly didn't mean to overlook that post. I thought I had gone back far enough in the conversation when I saw post #291.

No worries we all make mistakes

Yet the reason why there are different denominations is the reason why homosexuality is not always considered to be a sin. So I actually am staying on-topic, believe it or not.

In a sense. But there are things the bible is clear on. One happens to be homosexuality being an abomination and sinful. Adult or infant baptism for instance is something debatable.

How is homosexuality in animals irrelevant to the fact that homosexuality is natural? I've already shown you the definition of the word "natural." Do I really need to show it to you again?

I've already explained why what happens with animals is irrelevant to what happens with humans. Do I really need to tell you again?

So you think that the Bible is more correct on this issue than science is? Since when did the authors of the Bible have even close to as much scientific knowledge as today's scientists do? Seriously, a 2,000-year-old book is not a good reference to look to for scientific facts.

Absolutely. The bible is the revealed word of God. Of course it is more reliable then a scientist. After all, God made the place and the rules, of course he knows better.

 

[Lupinus]

What makes you think that God doesn't care about animals?

They aren't created in his image? He didn't breath a soul into them? He didn't give them a nation? Salvation? Shall I continue?

 

[savedandhappy1]

Science is defined as:

so are you really trying to say that knowledge is a bad thing?

Also, I don't see why J Vernon McGee's opinion on this whole thing matters. He's just a man, so what makes his opinion any more true than mine?

So Webster has say in what is natural or not but a bible scholar doesn't have any say about a biblical issue?

Interesting to say the least.

Godly knowledge is a wonderful thing, but as that 2000 year old book says, when a man thinks himself to be wise.........hmmmmmmmm, not sure why I would want to quote from the Bible here when you have made it clear that you put more stock in modern mans conclusions then Gods.

 

[HannahBanana]

No worries we all make mistakes

Thanks. I was a bit worried you'd chew my head off for that, but I'm glad to see that you didn't.

In a sense. But there are things the bible is clear on. One happens to be homosexuality being an abomination and sinful. Adult or infant baptism for instance is something debatable.

What does the fact that homosexuality is a sin have to do with whether or not it's natural?

I've already explained why what happens with animals is irrelevant to what happens with humans. Do I really need to tell you again?

Just because you think that it's irrelevant doesn't mean that it actually is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, the definition of the word "natural" does mention nature, which means that when you're talking about whether or not homosexuality is natural, you have to explore what other animals do in that respect, since animals are part of nature.

Absolutely. The bible is the revealed word of God. Of course it is more reliable then a scientist. After all, God made the place and the rules, of course he knows better.

Is there a reason why you're ignoring the fact that men wrote the Bible? What makes the men who wrote the Bible any more knowledgeable than the men who are scientists?

 

[HannahBanana]

They aren't created in his image? He didn't breath a soul into them? He didn't give them a nation? Salvation? Shall I continue?

What exactly leads you to believe that the Creation Story is meant to be taken literally?

 

[HannahBanana]

So Webster has say in what is natural or not but a bible scholar doesn't have any say about a biblical issue?

Interesting to say the least.

Godly knowledge is a wonderful thing, but as that 2000 year old book says, when a man thinks himself to be wise.........hmmmmmmmm, not sure why I would want to quote from the Bible here when you have made it clear that you put more stock in modern mans conclusions then Gods.

Man wrote the Bible, so I don't understand why it's okay to put stock in the men who wrote it than it is to put stock in the men who are scientists.

 

[savedandhappy1]

How is homosexuality in animals irrelevant to the fact that homosexuality is natural? I've already shown you the definition of the word "natural." Do I really need to show it to you again?

Well considering we are talking about how that word is used in scriptures for one thing. The other thing is I have already showed you the Greek meaning of the word, which is what the scriptures we are talking about were written in. "Do I really need to show it to you again?"

Is there by chance away that you can keep from trying to make some point by trying to belittle those you are debating with?

Oh, it doesn't matter I will just ignore the digs and stay on topic, so nevermind.

 

[Lupinus]

Thanks. I was a bit worried you'd chew my head off for that, but I'm glad to see that you didn't.

I'm not the hateful sort

Just because you think that it's irrelevant doesn't mean that it actually is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, the definition of the word "natural" does mention nature, which means that when you're talking about whether or not homosexuality is natural, you have to explore what other animals do in that respect, since animals are part of nature.

The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter if it is natural or not. As I said several posts ago, it's natural for some animals to eat their own young. That doesn't mean a human mother eating her newborn wouldn't be sinful. I could really care yes if it's natural, I care if it is sinful.

Is there a reason why you're ignoring the fact that men wrote the Bible? What makes the men who wrote the Bible any more knowledgeable than the men who are scientists?

All scripture is God breathed. Man may have been putting pen to paper, but that doesn't mean man authored the bible.

What exactly leads you to believe that the Creation Story is meant to be taken literally?

 

[HannahBanana]

I am starting to get a bit tired of saying the same thing over and over and over (and over!) again, so I'm going to bow out of this debate. Thanks to all who debated with me, though. It was really fun, and I enjoyed it.

Have a good night and God bless.

 

[Lupinus]

night

 

[savedandhappy1]

What makes you think that God doesn't care about animals? What makes you think that living, breathing, loving, caring animals are any more disposable or right to ignore than you or I are?

I have 5 cats and 6 dogs, so don't get me wrong I wish that my animals will be in heaven with me. If they are it will not be because they accepted Christ as their Saviour and was saved though.

I also, don't believe I ever said that God doesn't care about animals, the scriptures tell us that He knows when a bird falls, so I do believe He cares about them.

What I am saying is that we have a soul, He breathed into us to give us life, He sent His son to die for our sins.

Another thing to remember is how we are told that He made them after their own kind..................................it probably isn't really doing any good to quote things from that old book.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Man wrote the Bible, so I don't understand why it's okay to put stock in the men who wrote it than it is to put stock in the men who are scientists.

So you don't see how reading a book that was written by men that lived during those times would be more accurate and have alot more knowledge and wisdom in it, then listening to scientist who are in many instances guessing and then trying to prove their guesses. They call them theroies because they haven't really proven them completely.

Besides the fact that I believe that man wrote the Bible by the inspiration of God. I also believe that He is able to keep His Word safe and accurate till He returns.

Anyhow what does science have to do with whether or not God calls something a sin or not?

The scriptures tell how wrong it is if we worship/or think more of the creation as compared to the Creator. So trying to say science knows more than the Creator is just wrong. IMO.

If science lines up with the Bible than I can put stock in the findings, but if it totally goes against it, well it isn't from God but from that great deceiver.

 

[Floatingaxe]

What about the situations where it's neither of those? From CriticalMassKitten's testimony there's no reason to believe it's either a choice or a spiritual stronghold.

It could be either.

There are, of course, many homosexual Christians who are able to serve God in righteousness. So being homosexual isn't necessarily something that needs to be overcome.

David.

That is not God's view. People who are involved in sexual sin and refuse to repent of it are not serving God, but rather their flesh.

 

[davedjy]

I have seen all the stats where people try and compare humans who are created in God's image, and have had a souled breathed into them by their Creator, to animals that do not have a souled or a need for forgiveness from their sins, and who aren't made in the image of God before. Thanks for posting them even though they have nothing to do with man, God, sin, forgiveness, or homosexuality.

So maybe the research should be done on why anyone would think that the two have anything in common. Let me know before you make any more claims about me or homosexuality, ok?

They sure do, because you or whatever you quoted said that homosexuality was an "abnormality unique to man" (your next quote below). Man being created in the image of God, is an irrelevant point when it comes to sexuality, as it doesn't really prove anything, nor do souls where sexuality is concerned.

Even most pagan societies have recognized the clearly obvious fact that homosexuality is abnormal and unnatural. It is also an abnormality that is unique to man.
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Erroneous/false information, SoAmazinglyBlessed just brought further proof it isn't "unique to man".