Do you think that homosexuality is a choice?

[David Brider]

You know, this is becoming seriously derailed!
The OP is not asking whether homosexuality is right or wrong, but whether it is a choice!
There are plenty of other threads to discuss the former, so shall we try to consider the question asked?

(And yes, I know, I have contributed to the derailment... just remembered what we were supposed to be discussing!! )

Yes, good point.



David.

 

[David Brider]

Picking and choosing, spinning and weaving, dancing and dodging---it's all simply refusing to hear what God is plainly telling you.

Nope; no picking and choosing, no spinning and weaving, no dancing and dodging, no refusing to hear God. All I'm interested in is seeing what the Bible has to say, and doing my best to love and worship and obey God day by day.

David.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I believe the homosexuals of today mostly choose it to be subversive, but there is a percentage of them who do not. Those are the ones I believe have a spiritual stronghold which has developed due to early childhood trauma, or family dysfunction, or demonic generational ties.

 

[Ohioprof]

I believe the homosexuals of today mostly choose it to be subversive, but there is a percentage of them who do not. Those are the ones I believe have a spiritual stronghold which has developed due to early childhood trauma, or family dysfunction, or demonic generational ties.

We choose being gay to be subversive? Why would someone want to do that?

You have a vivid imagination, my friend.

 

[Floatingaxe]

We choose being gay to be subversive? Why would someone want to do that?

You have a vivid imagination, my friend.

I believe, along with MANY, that there are those to whom being subversive or rebellious is to be "cool". If one goes against the grain, then they feel more on the side of right when the world attacks them. There is an emotional payoff for that sort of antiestablishment behaviour. It's negative, but it is what it is.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I don't think I know you well enough to say, but I think we all have agendas when we come to discussions like this - I know I do. By agendas, I mean preconceived notions, existing opinions, ideas about what the Bible says based on various teachings we've received, or ideas about what the people on the other fence do and believe and say and mean. The important thing, IMO, is to lay those agendas aside and, whatever our own vested interest in the issue, to try to remain as neutral as possible.

David.

Neutrality about sin is a sin in itself. God doesn't call us to be wishy-washy Christians. We are the light of the world. We are the salt of the earth. We are in no uncertain terms called to shout the truth from the housetops, and NOT hide our light under a bushel.

No, neutrality is not from God in any way!

 

[davedjy]

I believe, along with MANY, that there are those to whom being subversive or rebellious is to be "cool". If one goes against the grain, then they feel more on the side of right when the world attacks them. There is an emotional payoff for that sort of antiestablishment behaviour. It's negative, but it is what it is.

So you believe that one chooses the lifestyle because they like the attention of being oppressed? This could not even be further from the truth.

 

[UberLutheran]

Would it matter if homosexuality were a choice or if it was transmitted by a recessive gene?

Would the people who actively detest gays and do everything they possibly can to make the lives of gays and lesbians as miserable as possible hate us any less if homosexuality were transmitted by a recessive gene?

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Reading what "axe" has to say about homosexuality is like asking a man what childbirth feels like. She is not gay, thus, it doesn't make any difference what she "thinks" or what "many" believe when they have no idea. She continually runs her rants on here talking about "demonic" influences, or a bad family, or some trauma. While I laugh when I read it..it's truly dangerous as she is preaching false information which is damaging. People that can't think for themselves, will see things like this, and be sucked in...If axe herself were gay, I'm sure she wouldn't say it was a 'choice' just like I'm sure she doesn't think her heterosexuality was a choice....sexuality just naturally occurs.

 

[CriticalMassKitten]

I believe, along with MANY, that there are those to whom being subversive or rebellious is to be "cool". If one goes against the grain, then they feel more on the side of right when the world attacks them. There is an emotional payoff for that sort of antiestablishment behaviour. It's negative, but it is what it is.

Yes, I think it's soooo cool to be stared down in a restaurant while trying to eat simply for being with someone I'm attracted to. Or have friends I've known for years suddenly change when they find out who I'm attracted to. Or even better, how about having your own grandparents hate you behind your back because of something as silly as that? Yeah, I know I definitely just wanted to be cool when I "decided" to be gay. Oh wait that's right, none of those things have any sort of "pay off" what-so-ever, yet I'm doing better accepting who I am then denying it completely.

And I hardly doubt in my family of Southern Baptists going back very far that there are any demonic generational ties or something, sorry. And abused as a child, or traumatic experiences? Also very doubtful. Very healthy upbringing, so I'm afraid that's out.

Anyway, I think it's quite clear that I think homosexuality is not a choice.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, I think it's soooo cool to be stared down in a restaurant while trying to eat simply for being with someone I'm attracted to. Or have friends I've known for years suddenly change when they find out who I'm attracted to. Or even better, how about having your own grandparents hate you behind your back because of something as silly as that? Yeah, I know I definitely just wanted to be cool when I "decided" to be gay. Oh wait that's right, none of those things have any sort of "pay off" what-so-ever, yet I'm doing better accepting who I am then denying it completely.

And I hardly doubt in my family of Southern Baptists going back very far that there are any demonic generational ties or something, sorry. And abused as a child, or traumatic experiences? Also very doubtful. Very healthy upbringing, so I'm afraid that's out.

Anyway, I think it's quite clear that I think homosexuality is not a choice.

Them's the consequences!

It somehow makes them feel righteous when people express negativity about their obvious choices in life. It's a mixed up mindset, for sure, with an odd payoff.

 

[Lupinus]

neither does hatred

I don't recall any hate

Which does not mean it is correct. As noted, there is no reason to believe the Greek word arsenokoites means homosexual.

Then by all means, learn biblical Hebrew and Greek better then the many hundreds of scholars who have participated of the recognized best translations. Because they disagree with you.

Careful what you ask for.
400 years ago the majority of bibles translated arsenokoites to mean masturbators. So were they wrong?

Based off poor texts and rushed translation.

You just used the majority argument to get it to mean what you wish

I use the best translations I can find and go by what they plainly say.

So you are saying it is a sin to be a member of a minority

Cannibals, thieves, and murderers are a minority, so yes, I suppose being a member of certain minorities would indeed be sinful. Provided sin defines that "minority"

I fail to see any difference.

So when a racist says he doesn’t hate black people.. he just hates when they sin and act as social equals to whites…you would say this racist is not hating the person…just their sin

Can you show me where being black is a sin?

So when a racist “informs” black people that it is sinful to pretend to be equal to whites…he is in no way prejudiced, just honest

Being black isn't a sin. So, no, your comparison really doesn't make sense.

really?….yet there are thousands of versions of the bible…and they all say different things…some contain books missing in others. Some have radically different translations. Again…which one is the TRUE bible

I fail to see why this is so hard for you. You look at translations, please leave paraphrases out of this, and go from there. Forget the ones that are radically different, forget the ones where the translator does his own thing. Really, it's not so hard.

Prove it

How nice of you. Learn Hebrew and Greek and prove it does not. Until then, I'll take the word of trusted scholars over someone with an agenda.

my point remains that the argument you present is no different from the argument presented by racists. Why should we condemn the same argument coming form a racist but accept it when you bring it up?

Two reasons. A racist doesn't have biblical backing, and they work off hate.

That aside a factual argument is a factual argument no matter who it comes from. Your refusal to listen to anything that contradicts your personal prejudice shows you really aren’t’ that interested in truth as in maintaining your personal desires.

No, I refuse to listen to personal reason over God. And I refuse to take poor translations over those which scholars have agreed are accurate.

Prejudice against a minority is always an act of hate

Not when its based on a choice that has them playing with hellfire.

Yes wanting to be loved and have a happy life, not wanting to be hated just for being honest…boy those are HORRIBLE sins

No, disobeying God is.

So merely thinking that I am gay is a sin? Since you base your arguments on the Bible, where in the Bible does it say anything like that? You have done a whole lot of interpreting and reading your own beliefs into the Bible to get to that statement, methinks.

It says homosexuality is sinful, hence, defining yourself as a homosexual is sinful because you are giving into sin by allowing yourself to be defined by it.

No one is saying merely finding the same sex attractive is necessarily sinful, it's the giving into it part. Just as lusting in your heart is sinful because you are letting your heart be defined by a sinful act, even if you don't do the deed physically.

So you believe that one chooses the lifestyle because they like the attention of being oppressed? This could not even be further from the truth.

Not so much true for guys, but I know well over a dozen women who thought it was cool to be a lesbian in their late teen/early 20's years and it later...for lack of a better term....wore off. Sometimes it is jsut to be cool, others it is a very real temptation.

 

[CriticalMassKitten]

Them's the consequences!

It somehow makes them feel righteous when people express negativity about their obvious choices in life. It's a mixed up mindset, for sure, with an odd payoff.

I'm not sure my entire point got across, though I did skip a bit I realize. See, I felt bad once I started to realize I was attracted to the same sex. After all, what would people think? To convince myself I wasn't I attempted to go out with a very close friend. We got along fine, always cheerful, but it still always felt impossibly wrong. Then I decided to accept who I am and come out, which was more for myself. I felt better, but people still treat me at times like a freak. So, if by consequences, you mean how people treat me because of who I am and can't change, then yes, they are, sadly. Should it be so? No.

 

[davedjy]

Not so much true for guys, but I know well over a dozen women who thought it was cool to be a lesbian in their late teen/early 20's years and it later...for lack of a better term....wore off. Sometimes it is jsut to be cool, others it is a very real temptation.

The point of me saying that, is it in no way represents the Gay or Lesbian Community!
Who would want the damaging oppression, that, in the most extreme circumstances could lead to violence and murder? The point made was absurd at best, because nobody wants that type of negative "attention".

 

[Floatingaxe]

Reading what "axe" has to say about homosexuality is like asking a man what childbirth feels like. She is not gay, thus, it doesn't make any difference what she "thinks" or what "many" believe when they have no idea. She continually runs her rants on here talking about "demonic" influences, or a bad family, or some trauma. While I laugh when I read it..it's truly dangerous as she is preaching false information which is damaging. People that can't think for themselves, will see things like this, and be sucked in...If axe herself were gay, I'm sure she wouldn't say it was a 'choice' just like I'm sure she doesn't think her heterosexuality was a choice....sexuality just naturally occurs.

Actually, people can be sucked in by your own false thinking, which is opposed to God's own thinking, and lose their life eternally because of your foolishness.

Are you willing to take that responsibility? God holds us accountable for what we teach others about Him. We had better take the time and make the effort to know what the Scriptures clearly say before we spout off with our views! I do that. You do not...if I am not mistaken, you have said in another place here that you do not do Scripture. Is that not so?

I don't have to be gay to know that it is a disgrace before God. Your comment about that is a childish one at best.

 

[Lupinus]

which was more for myself

And theres the problem. It isn't about what you want. God made you and like every other human being made you are sinful. We ALL have weaknesses, and many of us even give into those weaknesses on occasion. But we should not, can not, allow those weaknesses to define us or lead us down a road to sin.

I once defined myself as a pagan, and it felt very right. I gave into one of my weaknesses. But I learned the truth, accepted it, and now am much better for it. Just because it feels right does not make it so, and certainly not just on the basis of it being for us.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I'm not sure my entire point got across, though I did skip a bit I realize. See, I felt bad once I started to realize I was attracted to the same sex. After all, what would people think? To convince myself I wasn't I attempted to go out with a very close friend. We got along fine, always cheerful, but it still always felt impossibly wrong. Then I decided to accept who I am and come out, which was more for myself. I felt better, but people still treat me at times like a freak. So, if by consequences, you mean how people treat me because of who I am and can't change, then yes, they are, sadly. Should it be so? No.

At age 16, you are only just aware of your sexuality. Maturity and proper Christian guidance is what you need. Do you have Christian parents? No? Do you belong to a good bible-believing church? No? Find one and find yourself a mentor who can lead you in the right path and introduce you to Jesus Christ in a deeper, real way.

Your life is just beginning! Don't allow it to be ruined, rooted in perversity! Don't listen to those who would pat you on your back and send you to hell. Listen to people of God who are showing you that there is a better way! Jesus is the Way!

 

[savedandhappy1]

I don't think I know you well enough to say, but I think we all have agendas when we come to discussions like this - I know I do. By agendas, I mean preconceived notions, existing opinions, ideas about what the Bible says based on various teachings we've received, or ideas about what the people on the other fence do and believe and say and mean. The important thing, IMO, is to lay those agendas aside and, whatever our own vested interest in the issue, to try to remain as neutral as possible.

David.

Thank You for explaining your definition of agenda.

Could you maybe explain alittle better what you mean by remaining neutral, and how you believe one can do that on a debate forum?

 

[CriticalMassKitten]

At age 16, you are only just aware of your sexuality. Maturity and proper Christian guidance is what you need. Do you have Christian parents? No? Do you belong to a good bible-believing church? No? Find one and find yourself a mentor who can lead you in the right path and introduce you to Jesus Christ in a deeper, real way.

Your life is just beginning! Don;t allow it to e ruined, rooted in perversity! Don;t listen to those who would pat you on your back and send you to hell. Listen to people pf God who are showing you that there is a better way! Jesus is the Way!

Perhaps I should stop responding since you obviously haven't looked at my other two posts in this topic. If you look, I do, in fact, have religious parents. Though not Christian, I find it hard to believe that Baptists are all that different. A church? No, hard to find one in New Hampshire that fit's our religion. And though I have agnostic as my religion, I really just view all religions as equal. I don't care to favor one over the other, so I just stay out of the whole choosing one religion thing.

As for my age, no, I realized who I was attracted to at about age 13. When it comes to sexuality, each experience is different. Nobody knows at a certain age, and older people could perhaps know less about their sexuality then younger people. Though I won't argue that with age comes more knowledge of ones self, but I thought quite hard on this subject, and "battled" with it you could say, and came to the conclusion that it isn't at all a problem. Also, I'm expected at my age to know what I would like to do for the rest of my life, and start getting that set up, so sexuality is an easy problem compared to that.Anyway, simply because I'm gay does not mean I'm going to lead some self destructive lifestyle, or some nonsense. And there are many people who follow Christian faith that believe homosexuality to be okay, and I don't feel anyone can say they are less of a Christian than another, just as they couldn't say that about you.


Now, about me doing this "for my self." When I say that, I mean I actually got that settled so I could move on and stop worrying about what people would say. Do I think God has a problem with me being gay? Of course not, but I respect your opinion that you feel he says otherwise, and I would expect you to respect mine. After all, neither of us can be sure until we're judged anyway, so it's pointless to debate over such things.

 

[savedandhappy1]

I believe that condemning "homosexuality" as "sin" is inconsistent with loving God and loving our neighbor. I reject the claims that "homosexuality" is a "sin." It contradicts my agenda of believing we should love God and love our neighbor.

For me, being gay was never a choice. I am very happy being gay, but I didn't choose it. To condemn people for loving a spouse simply because the spouse happens to be of the same sex seems to me to contradict the belief in loving one's neighbor.

Those are two different kinds of love, you do understand that right? The Bible speaks of 3 different kinds of love, I used to have a link to a good article on that, and would be happy to look for that if you would be interested?

Could you maybe give your definition of love, maybe that would help with the understanding?

Are there any other sins mentioned in the Bible that are inconsistent with your understanding of what a loving god would be?

Also, is it the speaking about sin which makes us unloving to you or is it something else, because that would kind of make Jesus in trouble then wouldn't it? He told many a person to go and sin no more, well if those are some of the scriptures that you believe, anyhow.

If you believe the scriptures that speak of loving God first and then loving our neighbor second, how can you then say that the scriptures which tell us about sin aren't true?