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The Nail in the Faith Alone Coffin.

Catholic Christian

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"but knowing that a man is not justified on the principle of works of law except but by the faith of Jesus Christ" Gal 2:16.

His Faith. Is that the more of it all you had in mind?
Again I say, when Paul says "Law", as a former pharisee, he is saying "Torah". The Heberew word for Law is Torah. To this I say AMEN: We are NOT saved by the works the Jews knew in the Torah.

BUT, there are NEW laws, laid down by Christ. Every time - and there are a lot of them - Christ says you must do something, that "do" is an action word. Try reading the NT again with a focus on every time Christ says you must DO something (i.e. "Do this in memory of me). For example: John 6:53-54: "Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Thats ONE of MANY.
 
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Ormly

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Again I say, when Paul says "Law", as a former pharisee, he is saying "Torah". The Heberew word for Law is Torah. To this I say AMEN: We are NOT saved by the works the Jews knew in the Torah.

BUT, there are NEW laws, laid down by Christ. Every time - and there are a lot of them - Christ says you must do something, that "do" is an action word. Try reading the NT again with a focus on every time Christ says you must DO something (i.e. "Do this in memory of me). For example: John 6:53-54: "Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Thats ONE of MANY.

Thats ONE of MANY that has been mis-construed to mean literal bread and wine. I would suggest you read the Nt for understanding of that, for the first time, and not rely on changing papal Bull.
If you understood Jesus Christ more you would know He didn't do away with the law but He is the Law and He explained it in such a clear way that no one should have a problem understanding that, nor should we need an institution to interpret it for us. But Alas and Alac, some never got and still do not get, understanding.

There are no new laws. . . . just Jesus and Him crucified.
 
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Catholic Christian

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Thats ONE of MANY that has been mis-construed to mean literal bread and wine. I would suggest you read the Nt for understanding of that, for the first time, and not rely on changing papal Bull.
If you understood Jesus Christ more you would know He didn't do away with the law but He is the Law and He explained it in such a clear way that no one should have a problem understanding that, nor should we need an institution to interpret it for us. But Alas and Alac, some never got and still do not get, understanding.

There are no new laws. . . . just Jesus and Him crucified.
Okay, let us not argue what "eat my flesh" means for the sake of this current discussion. My point is, here is something He says you must DO, and if you don't DO it, you'll have no life. That is a "work", something you must "do". THAT is my point.

If you think you can disregards Christs commands to "do" things, I don't see how you reckon that one out.
 
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Catholic Christian

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There are no new laws. . . .

What about this one:

Matt 6:15 - But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (KJV)

BINGO. There is a "work" you MUST do, right from the mouth of Christ. You must "forgive" - a verb, an action word - and if you don't, "neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Are you saying you don't have to DO this?
 
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Ormly

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What about this one:

Matt 6:15 - But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (KJV)

BINGO. There is a "work" you MUST do, right from the mouth of Christ. You must "forgive" - a verb, an action word - and if you don't, "neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Are you saying you don't have to DO this?

Are you saying God didn't recognise and require that under the OT law? . . . . for His favor?
 
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Catholic Christian

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Are you saying God didn't recognise and require that under the OT law? . . . . for His favor?
Again: Do you have to DO this or not? I'm not Tim Russert, and you're not a politician who is going to duck my question. I shall repeat my post:


Matt 6:15 - But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (KJV)

BINGO. There is a "work" you MUST do, right from the mouth of Christ. You must "forgive" - a verb, an action word - and if you don't, "neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."


Are you saying you don't have to DO this?
 
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Ormly

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Again: Do you have to DO this or not? I'm not Tim Russert, and you're not a politician who is going to duck my question. I shall repeat my post:


Matt 6:15 - But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (KJV)

BINGO. There is a "work" you MUST do, right from the mouth of Christ. You must "forgive" - a verb, an action word - and if you don't, "neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Are you saying you don't have to DO this?

What's new about it??!!! It always had to be done.!!!!!!!
There! Right from the mouth of God!!!
 
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Ormly

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20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20 (KJV)

The RCC is a law unto itself; an anti-thesist to the law of Jesus Christ. Ponder that as being, 'whats new'..

". . . . . . . . . . we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Without the deeds of the law that the RCC imposes upon its adherants to its 'faith'..
 
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Ormly

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You still haven't answered my question: Do you have to do it or not?
And youi haven't addresed my reply. I don't know what else you expect bu t you got my answer, twice. You want it again, in bold type? If you can't understand it, blame your lack of understanding the scriptures. . . . and your reliance upon a faith that doesn't work.
 
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holdon

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I read it, and it does NOT say faith alone. Perhaps YOU should read it

"man is not justified except but by the faith of Jesus Christ" Gal 2:16.

The "except but" is a very strong term: it excludes all other means. One is justified only by faith. Clear and simple.
 
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"man is not justified except but by the faith of Jesus Christ" Gal 2:16.

The "except but" is a very strong term: it excludes all other means. One is justified only by faith. Clear and simple.
The REAL issue is justification by imputation (Protestant) or infusion (Catholic)? UNTIL you realize that is the real issue we will continue to talk past each other.
 
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Ormly

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Catholic Dude,

Do you believe in imputed sin? That all died in the sin of Adam.

Marv

Wrong word, Marv. Sin was never imputed. It is not ever a case where it is imputed. Sin was a relelationship entered into wilfully by Adam that left man eternally apart from from God. Man is still wilfully entering into the same relationship today. Being a mere church goer who keeps church ordinances does not alter the situation or condition man is in, i.e. being apart from God. Something more is necessary that church attendance can't correct nor can the church dispence it.
 
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BigNorsk

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Adam's sin is imputed to us and our sin was imputed to Jesus.

Isa 53:6-12 ESV
(6)
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
(8) By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
(9) And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
(10) Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(11) Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
(12) Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

2Co 5:21 ESV
(21)
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Rom 5:12-19 ESV
(12)
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
(13) for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
(14) Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
(15) But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
(16) And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
(17) For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
(18) Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
(19) For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Marv
 
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Catholic Dude,

Do you believe in imputed sin? That all died in the sin of Adam.

Marv
No sin is not imputed, that would mean the "sinner" hismelf isnt inherently unrighteous but merely counted to be...that is absurd.

When Adam sinned he lost the sanctifying grace in his soul which is what makes a person an adopted child of God. When Adam lost this grace part of the consequences was that all those born after him would lack that sanctifying grace when they were born.

Through the merits of Christ this sanctifying grace can be restored so that we can become adopted children of God.
 
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Ormly

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No sin is not imputed, that would mean the "sinner" hismelf isnt inherently unrighteous but merely counted to be...that is absurd.

When Adam sinned he lost the sanctifying grace in his soul which is what makes a person an adopted child of God. When Adam lost this grace part of the consequences was that all those born after him would lack that sanctifying grace when they were born.

Through the merits of Christ this sanctifying grace can be restored so that we can become adopted children of God.


There is no such thing as 'sanctifying grace'. How do you come up with that? Better yet, since I have briought that to your attention only to have ignored, perhaps you can-will explain what it means?
 
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There is no such thing as 'sanctifying grace'. How do you come up with that? Better yet, since I have briought that to your attention only to have ignored, perhaps you can-will explain what it means?
Sanctifying Grace is best summed up by Romans 5:5. It is the love of God poured into your heart and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

We are unrighteous before God when we lack that Sanctifying grace, just like a room is dark when it lacks light.
 
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Ormly

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Sanctifying Grace is best summed up by Romans 5:5. It is the love of God poured into your heart and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

But Paul was speaking to the saints and the faithful in Jesus Christ. You would have it that he wasn't.

We are unrighteous before God when we lack that Sanctifying grace, just like a room is dark when it lacks light.

We are unrighteous before God even when we are born again. The born again experiience is designed by God to bring rectification to our sinful condition; to make saints out of sinners for the becoming of sons brought into glory. Do you know anything about that in your church?
 
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