Tell me why your apostolic church is the True Communion.

[GabrielWithoutWings]

In the spirit of this thread, I have decided to act upon the advice of a moderator's post in that thread and create a thread here where all apostolic churches may present the case for the Communion of their Church being the Way. Keep in mind, I'm speaking of the Way of Fullness. I know the Catholic Church, in particular, believes other Communions to be valid, albeit imperfect.

The creation of the thread in this forum will help to ensure that only churches with apostolic succession may answer, and that a Communion may answer in its own defense if it believes false or misleading information has been presented.



I am an unbaptised, unchurched, near 30 year old male agnostic pessimist who believes that the Gates of Hell has triumphed over the Church due to schism, particularly Chalcedon, which renders Christ a liar.


If you think I am wrong, please present your case.

 

[JoabAnias]

I am an unbaptised, unchurched, near 30 year old male agnostic pessimist who believes that the Gates of Hell has triumphed over the Church due to schism, particularly Chalcedon, which renders Christ a liar.

I would ask, why then do you care what any apostolic tradition would think?

Can you explain why you think Chalcedon made Jesus a liar?

Peace.

 

[Secundulus]

I would ask, why then do you care what any apostolic tradition would think?

Can you explain why you think Chalcedon made Jesus a liar?

Peace.

I am curious also on your views of Chalcedon.

But to answer the question, the Anglicans believe we have the fulness of the Apostolic faith no more and no less than the other Apostolic Churches.

I am aware that they will disagree.

 

[prodromos]

Tell me why your apostolic church is the True Communion.

Come and see.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Try reading this thread.

Then, read this thread.

Perhaps this will help all understand where I am coming from.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

This is a PM that I sent to another person.

Pretend someone that you care about very much sent this to you. What would you say to them?

The bottom line is this: I have existed without God in my life (from my end). I didn't go to Church, I don't celebrate Christmas, I don't celebrate Easter. I am not looking for God. I am looking for Truth. If God is Truth, then I want to find God. If Truth is that there is no God, then I guess I will just have to deal with that fact.

I am very inward looking. This is what flutters through my mind:

I want to see my father, my sister that I've never met, and my grandfather again after I die.

If there is a chance that this will happen, then I must find out how to do so. Thus, my spiritual search.

However, there is a chance that will not happen. This has far more reaching complications.

I am not a humanist. I'm not one of these, "Oh, just live your life the best you can, contribute to society, and die in peace." I don't want to just die in peace.

If there is no afterlife, then there is no purpose to existence.

If existence is meaningless, then there is no point in being here in the first place.

If there is no afterlife, every single thing I have learned. Every single thing I have felt, experienced, laughed at, cried over, and all my hard lessons learned will be for absolutely nothing.

See, a humanist would say it is not for nothing. They would, again, approach with the same tired rhetoric. "Enhance your society, leave your memory through art and science and contribution to the world."

See, that mess only works if there are other people here to enjoy it.

If everything I have and will ever learn is utterly erased upon my death, then why am I here? Why the **** did I learn 1 + 1 = 2 and then expand on that if it will all be gone when I die? Why? All of the people I love. All of my pain and suffering that I've experienced. All of my relationships. Why did I have them if I'm just going to be snuffed out of existence?

This becomes even larger.

If ALL humans are the same as me, then why is anyone here? Why? Why do we have children? To bring more people into the world that will erase upon death? To bring needless suffering into the world for nothing in the grand picture?

Remember, human achievements of all shapes and sizes are only relevant if there are other humans around to enjoy them.

If there is no afterlife, then everyone on the planet should commit suicide because it honestly would not make a bit of difference.

But.

If there is one thing that I can think of that fills with such utter horror, dread, and fear as annihilation after death it's this:

To live through your life believing an absolute hope-filled joy bringing lie.

I would rather go through life completely miserable knowing the truth than dandy-dancing all through life with a big evangelical grin on my face believing in something that is complete horse****.

So, when you're reading my words in our exchange, and you think to yourself, "Wow, this guy sure is down in the dumps. What's his deal?" I want you to remember all the stuff I just wrote to you. Now, think about this:

I think about what I just wrote to you from waking to sleeping, every single day of my life. EVERY single day.

Thus, you see why I'm so inward looking, withdrawn and melancholy. It's also a part of why I'm so crass, pessimistic, and sarcastic. It's how I keep sane a lot of the time.

So, I'll just go through life, looking and searching. I'll never find what I'm looking for, and every Christian on this planet will tell me that. [This was written to another Christian, but I could easily put any other religion in place of "Christian."]

Thus, I will live in fear for the rest of my life UNLESS something of fantastic proportions manifests itself to me in a way that leaves with no doubt in mind at all.

Let me also say one last thing to you, before my half-crazed, drooling lunatic exchange to you is concluded.

I have never, ever felt anything, not a glimmer, not a sliver of Presence of anything. There have been no miracles, no wonders, no Peak Experiences. I have laid in the bed begging for something, a flash, a feeling, something to let me know that I am not alone.

I see people go through their lives, just a-dancin' and a-smilin' because they have the belief, correct or incorrect, that everything is going to be alright because they've got Jesus.

I don't have that luxury of blind faith. I am just not wired that way and there is nothing I can do about it.

So, the next time you think I'm being lonely because I choose to be lonely...

Please reread this post of mine to you.

Peace.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I would ask, why then do you care what any apostolic tradition would think?

Well, thats hurtful. Thanks. Because one of you is the real Church, maybe? Perhaps I do not have all the information? Perhaps I made a mistake?

I'm not a happy agnostic. Mouse over my faith icon.

This is a partial attempt at a reaching out for help, I guess. Work with me here.

Can you explain why you think Chalcedon made Jesus a liar?

Peace.

Please see the links below.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Come and see.

Please read my links, then we'll see if your statement is still relevant.

 

[WarriorAngel]

In the spirit of this thread, I have decided to act upon the advice of a moderator's post in that thread and create a thread here where all apostolic churches may present the case for the Communion of their Church being the Way. Keep in mind, I'm speaking of the Way of Fullness. I know the Catholic Church, in particular, believes other Communions to be valid, albeit imperfect.

The creation of the thread in this forum will help to ensure that only churches with apostolic succession may answer, and that a Communion may answer in its own defense if it believes false or misleading information has been presented.



I am an unbaptised, unchurched, near 30 year old male agnostic pessimist who believes that the Gates of Hell has triumphed over the Church due to schism, particularly Chalcedon, which renders Christ a liar.


If you think I am wrong, please present your case.

Well, it is not that the Catholic Church says the sacraments are not valid, because the Holy Spirit works in the Church[es] regardless if men are seperated.
To God above, this is not true.

To man below, as men are imperfect, it is true.

However; confecting the sacraments and the Body and Blood of Christ cannot be undone by man.

Succession continues onwards even if we [as humans] have tiffs, the doctrines, altho some will disagree, are similar in the root of the teachings.

The difference is that Rome defines, and others do not do so.
But the base, or the root that Rome uses to expound on the doctrines came from the beginning and only Rome proclaims they must to be believed by the faithful.

I could point out how i see the similarities. Altho some will disagree.
However; if you seek to find your choice thru us...i for one would could not fare the test so well.

So you should seek His way and which direction He will lead you.
Regardless, no matter which direction you go, in the end we will [i say in confidence of the Lord] be One again.

So be charitable and open your heart to the Lord to give you grace and then conclude which path will lead you to where you must go.

As for Christ lying, or erring...that is a false calculation. Basing the seperation [due to men] on His Word...which has not failed yet, means you see the Traditions seperated. I can understand how you see it that way...
Looking at all of us who was One once..and thinking [as many do] that we have gone seperate ways. And the doctrines are very different.

I disagree. Thats just me.


Of course, i would state Catholic. But that is just the sort that I am.
And of course the whole Peter's Chair thing would be brought up ad infinitum..

Would you like for me to demonstate how we really havent changed that much?
[Albiet seperated]

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well, thats hurtful. Thanks. Because one of you is the real Church, maybe? Perhaps I do not have all the information? Perhaps I made a mistake?

I'm not a happy agnostic. Mouse over my faith icon.



Please see the links below.

I know who you are.
Weren't you Catholic once?

 

[WarriorAngel]

We have to start at the beginning friend.

The OT.

I have said this before...and i find it quite remarkable that the entire OT not only points to Christ, which cannot be conicedence that He fulfilled 300 prophecies..

But it also points to His Church to come.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I've posted there a couple of times, but no, I've never been Catholic. I used to post quite a bit in the Oriental Orthodox forums.

I was in RCIA when I was 23 or 24. They told me I wasn't ready to be Catholic, so I never went back.

I had forgotten about that, actually, until I typed this.

It was a while ago, regardless, in a place far, far away.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I've posted there a couple of times, but no, I've never been Catholic. I used to post quite a bit in the Oriental Orthodox forums.

I was in RCIA when I was 23 or 24. They told me I wasn't ready to be Catholic, so I never went back.

I had forgotten about that, actually, until I typed this.

It was a while ago, regardless, in a place far, far away.

Ok, so you never went that far.
But i only remember pieces and bits. However; you did stand out in my mind.

Would you be interested in discussing the Church prophecies.

BTW, i will add you in my prayers...you are in a place where you are scared...and i know that place.
This is what I prayed.

'Lord grant that I may have Your Grace to know that which I need to be close to You.
Never leave my side please. And I beg that you keep me in Your Grace and that I may go to Heaven to be near You always.'
Amen.

Try that prayer from the heart.

 

[Secundulus]

Try reading this thread.

Then, read this thread.

Perhaps this will help all understand where I am coming from.

Some time ago I read those threads from a different post from you. Your experience is unfortunate. I might suggest you try a more western oriented Church, whether Anglican, Catholic, or Orthodox that is not ethnically foreign.

Here is a list of traditional/orthodox Anglican Churches. Perhaps one is in your area. http://shelterinthestorm.org/.

Also, we have an ongoing thread in the Anglican forum from a seeker. You might be interested as it might answer some questions. The thread is here http://christianforums.com/t6693740-real-question-from-a-seeker.html.

 

[Secundulus]

This is a PM that I sent to another person.

Pretend someone that you care about very much sent this to you. What would you say to them?

I read all your questions. You ask the same questions as all the great philosophers, you ask the same questions that I did just a few years ago when I lost my faith.

I can tell you without reservation that Christ is real and that all of your questions are answered in him. I can tell you this with confidence because he told me he was real.

I cannot promise he will speak to you in the same way he spoke to me. I think he spoke to me only because I was falling away and my faith had so far degenerated that it was necessary at the time. He reveals himself to each person as is necessary to draw them to him. I think he probably already has spoken to you since you ask these questions. Look at how many people never even ask and even go so far as to ridicule the questions themselves.

The answer is simple, and yet from a human standpoint itis hard. All you have to do is surrender and trust that he is who he said he is. Pray to him. Trust Christ and be baptized as he said to be. The assurance you seek may not come immediately, but it will come; This is what he promised.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Trust Christ and be baptized as he said to be.

In which Communion? That is the question.

The assurance you seek may not come immediately, but it will come; This is what he promised.

See my signature please.

Thank you for your responses.

 

[Anglian]

Dear JoabAnias,

Your questions are good and come, one sense, from a real desire to know - but, perhaps a fear of there not being anything worth knowing? Is it best to be disappointed later, or pessimistic now?

God is love. None of His dealings with us is not marked by that quality, although the way we react through our own sin may distort that.

One of our problems in the modern world is we go about things the opposite way from the early Church, and some have the view that Scripture can make you believe and be instantly understood by all.

In the early Church those coming to the Faith were taught about it through being introduced to the Liturgy which was the outward expression of the Faith and our relationship with God. The Bible was not used much until people had been received; it was held to need the eye of Faith to be properly read. (See St. Cyril of Jerusalem's Catechetical Lectures for the way this was done).

That reminds us that 'understanding' comes after experiencing; to think we can comphrend the incomprehensible and Ineffable God is presumptuous; He was revealed through His Church and Scripture what is needful for our salvation; more than that we do not need. If we can learn humility and repentance that will be a good start for us in our pride and our sin.

It was, perhaps, only when heresy started preaching another Gospel that the Church had to try to do what it had not originally done, which was to define doctrine. But that was often done by saying what was not orthodox and what could not be believed. In other words, the Church, built on Apostolic foundations, pronounced with their authority.

The Catholic Church )of which I am not a member) recognises other Churches as being in impaired communion with itself, and it it may be that that is not a bad word to describe the situation of all the Apostolic Churches - if we could escape from the ecclesiology of St. Cyprian which we all claim and which makes us say 'we' are the Church.

We know what He said. He said that we would be recognised as His children by our love each for the other; where that is, so is He. We can say, through doctrine, where He is not; if we claim exclusive knowledge of where He is, are we not effectively saying to our brother 'you fool!'; and what does St. Paul say about those who say that?

It is recorded that in extreme old age the Beloved Apostle, St. John, would be carried into Church, where believers would gather round hoping to hear some words of wisdom. Some were disappointed, we are told, when the aged Saint simply said: 'Love one another.' But he was right then, as he is now.

The Syriac Father, Jacob Bar-Hebraeus, once wrote:

When I had given much thought and pondered on the matter, I became convinced that these quarrels of Christians among themselves are not a matter of factual substance, but rather one of words and terms. For they all confess Christ Our Lord to be perfect God and perfect human, without any commingling, mixing, or confusion of the natures. This bipinnate 'likeness' ( Phil. 2:6-7) is termed by one party a 'nature', by another 'a hypostasis' and by yet another a 'person'. Thus I saw all the Christian communities, with their different Christological positions, as possessing a single common ground that is without any difference. Accordingly I totally eradicated any hatred from the depths of my heart, and I completely renounced disputing with anyone over confessional matters

To which I would add only

In peace and amity,

Anglian

 

[Secundulus]

In which Communion? That is the question.

An Anglican will tell you that it does not matter. What you gain in an Apostolic Church, that you will not get in a non Apostolic Church, is a valid Eucharist. It will be equally valid in any of three.

We believe a valid Eucharist is important because it is one of the primary ways that Christ imparts Grace and unites himself with an individual believer.

Baptism to Christ is valid in any Church, Apostolic or not.

 

[prodromos]

Please read my links, then we'll see if your statement is still relevant.

I understand. I will pray for you and your family.

John

 

[WarriorAngel]

In which Communion? That is the question.



See my signature please.

Thank you for your responses.

Although i was raised Catholic and had to start defending my faith at age 6 or 7...i cant remember - against claims by neighbors who were JW...

I also did this when i dated a JW at age 15.

I did fall from Church attendence. Basically because i tried to discern scriptures for myself. I was then led into a world of comfort thru sin. Human comforts and sin made me feel i was ok, i was so young it didnt matter.

But in 1992 i had an experience that was very profound. I prayed frequently for faith. Altho mind you i was deeply into anything that came my way.
Reincarnation, oiuja, tarot, whatever worked i was going to do to figure it all out.

Oddly tho, while in the midst of these horrible 'acts' i was even being led to God thru them.
Tarot said i would experience an understanding of the Universe and God and so forth.
the oiuja said i was going to get closer to God.

But the part of the oiuja was...altho it lies and decieves it argued with me. I wont go into details...

Needless to say, i ended up in a battle for my souls life.

I dont know if i was given the gift of discernment of spirits thru turning back to God, but i can promise you that God does exist. I was in a full fledged battle with the spiritual world.
So much so, i had demons attack me literally.

:o And that was because i was pulling out of my comfort szone thru the Virgin Mary who helped me.
I cannot thank her enough.

One thing i knew...was that God did exist and that Mary was never anything but honored by me, and Her Son. Even tho i made more than my share of awful mistakes.

It was my love for her, that probably allowed Jesus to accept me back. I feel that is true.

Anyway, my journey is ongoing, but one thing that did happen to me thru the grace of God was finally understanding scriptures. Like a veil was literally lifted off me and i could see.

Whereas before i used human understanding alone to read them. When i opened my eyes, i was given the grace to see that thru the Church i must read them.

In more recent years i decided to dig even deeper into the Churches history by reading the Early Church fathers who wrote for the Church....and thus only did things become truly understood. But my heart was pliable to this after grace.

So... i too wanted to know who what where and when.
I had to find out for myself because i was being pulled to do so. God gives the grace to seek in the right direction...and my signature has Matthew 7; 7
[Luke 11 is good too]

Ask and you shall recieve.
See, everytime i want an answer, i ask. Then somehow i run across the answer, sometimes by chance. But it always works.

Faith in the Lord is the start and only the start...following where He leads is the beginning of removing self and desiring Him.

We must not be afraid to be humble and hopeful. The more humility we possess the more He will give us. Letting go of ourselves and giving over to total and complete obedience and trust is a new world [for me]

Altho i still struggle with pride, and when i ask the Lord to help me...o He does. Not the way I prefer, but He does.

He lets me struggle on my own when i feel puffed up... to which frightens me. I dont always 'feel' His presense, but i trust He is there.

We dont need to 'feel' Him so long as we have faith that means He is there because faith is His alone to give.

I fell into darkness months back...literally frightened because of the doubts that over shadowed me. Doubts stemming from pride, i know. It was after praying about my pride that I discovered He was teaching me that no man on earth can claim Grace as their own by their own power.

I prayed the prayer i gave you...and suddenly faith returned and fear and doubt disappeared.
Maybe just any prayer that comes to your heart will help you. But doing it with humility and true seeking is the only way to 'see'.

We must persevere until the end... and it is not always easy when we think highly of ourselves. This post makes me feel arrogant. :o

So instead dont look at me, or what i have received, look to God and know...you already do have a glimmer of faith. Now you must pray with your heart. Because God wants your heart more than your intellect.

It is thru your heart that can soften to Him, that He will give and give. Because He loves you.