• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Why are creationists always wrong?

thaumaturgy

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,541
882
✟12,333.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
This is a crude example, but take the Periodic Table for example. It used to have 70-some elements, until others were discovered. So they "corrected" it to reflect the new elements added. Yet still the Table is incomplete, and they end up "correcting" it again, and again, etc. How many times do you "correct" something, before it is finally correct? So evidently there's a difference between something that is correct, and something that is correct.

As far as the "new evidence" --- sorry for the confusion --- I mean that as a direct quote, not a figure of speech.


Think of the Periodic Table as a Catalogue.

Once it was established how to arrange the elements (initially I believe Mendeleev used mass, but later it was arranged based on atomic number, the number of protons).

Once this fundamental aspect was established it established how elements were "identified" (number of protons in the nucleus of the neutral atom), it established where all the holes were within the number that were known to exist.

Right now we are up to 92 naturally occuring elements. That means that of the 92 known "naturally occuring ones" (in reality Technetium is known largely from being synthesized but owing to the instability of its isotopes it is likely it exists or existed naturally somewhere), other than that no one is probably going to find a new element within that set (it would mean you would have to have elements with fractional protons in their nucleus).

The "new ones" will come from numbers higher than 92. There is some theoretical work indicating an "island of stability" at much higher atomic numbers which might mean we could find some more "naturally occuring" elements above 92. But so far all those we see above 92 are from synthetic routes.

BUT, and perhaps a nuclear physics person can correct me on this, it could be that we find some naturally occuring Neptunium or Plutonium, etc somewhere. The only thing that would change is the arbitrary designation of what is "naturally occuring".

The Periodic Table really isn't such a "work in progress" anymore. It's more like a giant library of elements, the usual suspects are pretty well established. Now we are looking at adding to it, not necessarily fundamentally altering it.

In a sense, now that we have the catalogue we can make some predictions about how to handle some of these materials. It was useful in learning the nature of the transuranics shortly after scientists made the first measurable quantities. They fit in a codified system. Providing some amount of predictive utility. And a lot of times this predictive utility has worked as it should.

Sure there's some questions because when you get up near the big numbers in the periodic table things get weird. Shells fill in different orders and energy levels get kind of confusing. That's why I vastly prefer hanging out in what are called the "p-block elements" where I've made my chemical home most of my career. I started off at the top of Group IV and am working my way down.

When you mention Phlogiston that really isn't related to the periodic table. Phlogiston was an early attempt to understand combustion and chemical elements but was jettisoned relatively early and quickly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Molal
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,435
52,723
Guam
✟5,182,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Scientists have an up to 100% imprecision rate: Every declaration/fact/law/theory arrived at through empirical means is to some extent imprecise: either an approximation or merely part of the story.

Oh! So that's it? They're not wrong, per se, just "imprecise." It's just we creationists that are "so wrong," right?

OP said:
But the question is, why do these creationists, with their book which tells them how the world was made, get it so wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,435
52,723
Guam
✟5,182,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Think of the Periodic Table as a Catalogue.

Once it was established how to arrange the elements...

Thaumaturgy, no offence, I'm sorry I used the Periodic Table as an example, okay?
 
Upvote 0

kingreaper

Senior Member
Sep 12, 2004
814
22
✟1,055.00
Faith
Atheist
Oh! So that's it? They're not wrong, per se, just "imprecise." It's just we Christians that are "so wrong," right?
Nope, many scientists have been wrong. Sometimes even scientists as a group have accepted something completely wrong.

It's just that things like the idea of Atoms (turned out not to be indivisible) and galilean transformations (turned out to be a special case of Lorentz transformations) weren't WRONG they were IMPRECISE. Atoms ARE the smallest division at which an element is the same element. Lorentz transformations ARE close enough to accuracy for most purposes.


That God created the world in seven days 6000 years ago has no element of truth that's useful. That's why I call it wrong rather than imprecise.
 
Upvote 0

TheBear

NON-WOKED
Jan 2, 2002
20,653
1,813
✟312,491.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
That's fine --- but to claim that something like the Periodic Table is "correct" is, in my opinion, misleading; unless you have more than one definition for the word "correct" - (which you would have to have).
The 'final answer' approach has a "correct". Science doesn't operate like that. The problem with your approach, (the 'final answer' approach), is that it ends all inquiry.

Unlike religion, science never pretends to have the 'final answer' on anything.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Oh! So that's it? They're not wrong, per se, just "imprecise." It's just we Christians that are "so wrong," right?
No not Christians, Creationists.


Thaumaturgy, no offence, I'm sorry I used the Periodic Table as an example, okay?
But you are correct... Chemical Periodicity is an atheistic religion and a LIE! I believe that C.P. was created by SATAN and given to Nimrod at the Tower of Babel.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Here are some subjects that most Creationists (not Christians in general) are wrong about:
1. The Age of the Earth
2. The Geology of the Earth
3. The Origin of modern Species
4. The Origin of Man
5. The Origin of modern languages
6. The Age of ancient civilizations
7. The distribution of organic molecules in the solar system
8. Star formation
9. Thermodynamics
10. Population genetics
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,435
52,723
Guam
✟5,182,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Here are some subjects that most Creationists (not Christians in general) are wrong about:
1. The Age of the Earth
2. The Geology of the Earth
3. The Origin of modern Species
4. The Origin of Man
5. The Origin of modern languages
6. The Age of ancient civilizations
7. The distribution of organic molecules in the solar system
8. Star formation
9. Thermodynamics
10. Population genetics

Are these established truths now, or are any of them subject to change?
 
Upvote 0

thaumaturgy

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,541
882
✟12,333.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Are these established truths now, or are any of them subject to change?

Anything in science is subject to change. However a bit of logic will remind you that if anything here changes it does not mean Creationists were necessarily right.

Let's look at Thermodynamics for an example from Split's list.

Many Creationists use the argument based on the Second Law of Thermo to debate against evolution. However they are clearly wrong in that they must violate one fundamental assumption of the Second Law (closed system assumption) in order to misapply the Law to their argument against evolution.

IF we find out tomorrow that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is not valid, that will still not make the Creationists' argument ipso factor correct. It will merely negate the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,435
52,723
Guam
✟5,182,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Anything in science is subject to change. However a bit of logic will remind you that if anything here changes it does not mean Creationists were necessarily right.

But in the meantime, you'll [have no choice but to] consider us "wrong," right?
 
Upvote 0

MrGoodBytes

Seeker for life, probably
Mar 4, 2006
5,868
286
✟30,272.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Are these established truths now, or are any of them subject to change?
1. The Age of the Earth - unlikely but possible. Bear in mind that if anything, this planet could be older than we think but not younger (at least not without massive changes to nuclear physics).

2. The Geology of the Earth - apart from the deep core, I think we have it pretty much figured out .

3. The Origin of modern Species - perhaps. New fossils are being found all the time.

4. The Origin of Man - see above.

5. The Origin of modern languages - possible.

6. The Age of ancient civilizations - possible.

7. The distribution of organic molecules in the solar system - sure, there's a lot of white spots on the map here.

8. Star formation - the basics are known, but the details could change.

9. Thermodynamics - Very unlikely.

10. Population genetics - very unlikely again. Population genetics is pretty well understood.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Are these established truths now, or are any of them subject to change?
Is our understanding of All of These Subjects Completely Wrong? That is what would be required for the Absolute Unerring TRUTH of Creationism to be correct.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,435
52,723
Guam
✟5,182,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Is our understanding of All of These Subjects Completely Wrong? That is what would be required for the Absolute Unerring TRUTH of Creationism to be correct.

Which paradigm are you referring to, or does it matter? (And I'm about to invoke my Apple Challenge if you're going to try to link Creationism with science.)
 
Upvote 0

Vene

In memory of ChordatesLegacy
Oct 20, 2007
4,155
319
Michigan
✟28,465.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
And here's the poster who has the Periodic Table in his signature. I find it interesting that the new information doesn't contradict the old information (for example the number of protons in Helium), but instead it only adds more information. And since this is being talked about look at element number 43, Technetium. This doesn't occur in nature, so for a while there was a gap in the table. But because of all the other known elements its existence and properties were already known.

To state it in one sentence; the new material doesn't contradict old information, it adds onto gaps.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,435
52,723
Guam
✟5,182,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And here's the poster who has the Periodic Table in his signature. I find it interesting that the new information doesn't contradict the old information (for example the number of protons in Helium), but instead it only adds more information. And since this is being talked about look at element number 43, Technetium. This doesn't occur in nature, so for a while there was a gap in the table. But because of all the other known elements its existence and properties were already known.

To state it in one sentence; the new material doesn't contradict old information, it adds onto gaps.

LOL

I knew better than to mention the Periodic Table in a post. It's like ringing the dinner bell.
 
Upvote 0

thaumaturgy

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,541
882
✟12,333.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Oh! So that's it? They're not wrong, per se, just "imprecise." It's just we creationists that are "so wrong," right?

Actually scientists never claim to be 100% correct. In all cases where a statistical assessment of "correctness" is employed it is assessed by a p-value (the probability of incorrectly rejecting a true null hypothesis).

The lower the p-value the better, the more "likely a statistically significant effect is being seen". To that end you will never see a p=0.000...0. The best you'll get is p<0.000...01 or some such small number.

NOW, as for Creationists they almost always claim fundamental truth.

That is what makes a scientist's knees jerk and a violent head snap. It simply isn't allowed. NO ONE can know absolute truth.

Even if you think God is speaking to you, you are relying solely on physical items to hear, read or interpret God's words. Which means that you are liable to the same potential errors we are.

However Creationists seldom provide the massive caveats their lack of data would require.

So Creationists are usually wrong in how they approach the discussion in that they do seldom allow, as a fundamental tenant of their claims, that their claims might be wrong.

In a sense they assume since their claims are based on the work of God that they cannot be mistaken (a rational assumption), but they always forget that they never provide sufficient evidence that they are getting the raw, unexpurgated or inerrant data directly from God without any filter. That can be a significant source of error.

But more importantly that caveat must always be made.
 
Upvote 0

uberd00b

The Emperor has no clothes.
Oct 14, 2006
5,642
244
47
Newcastle, UK
✟29,808.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
I would ask you how any honestly sane person could imagine that everything creationists have to say is totally wrong, a lie, and in error. Even creationists do not believe that concerning everything uniformitarians and evolutionists have to say. Doesn't this in fact call into question the biases of evolutionists and their seeming inability to think outside their "naturalist" box in search of truth?
You're right I was a bit sweeping in my generalisation. But certainly when it comes to their attempts to knock evolution down they're always factually incorrect in some way.

I'm still fairly sure they've scored no points.

It certainly doesn't lend their position any credence when they're continually proven wrong.
 
Upvote 0