Preparation for Great Controversy issues, Chapter 28

[reddogs]

The formal debate forum? Is that our D&D forum?

No, its a special section that requires a minimum of 100 post, which we all missed....

But no matter the obstacles, I trust that God will open a way and we will get across......

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

The formal debate forum? Is that our D&D forum?

Nope. It's a seperate place on CF reserved for debates that are more "formal". You can have limited participation and such. Apparently there's a 100 post minimum on it, too.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

You beat me to it, Red.

 

[mva1985]

Is it against the rules to know where this is?

 

[reddogs]

Is it against the rules to know where this is?

The problem being is it would be pretty hard to keep people from posting during the initial discussion, once it is over we can post the link and discuss it here...

 

[mva1985]

The problem being is it would be pretty hard to keep people from posting during the initial discussion, once it is over we can post the link and discuss it here...

I agree that you would want to limit it to a few so the discussion goes smoothly.

Maybe, you could send the two guys to a counting thread to get their post count up. I know it sounds stupid but should work.

Thanks for the update.

 

[reddogs]

I agree that you would want to limit it to a few so the discussion goes smoothly.

Maybe, you could send the two guys to a counting thread to get their post count up. I know it sounds stupid but should work.

Thanks for the update.

I had to call in some favors to get them here....

Jack is a close friend and confidant who is blessed with a keen mind and understanding of theological issues, James is a life-long friend, who is also much blessed in this area, both humble servants of God. They have agreed to come to the forum on this one issue to go over it with Tall, and hopefully they will be able to stay for more of the regular discussions and fellowship...

 

[jclark]

I can see Tall73's concern with the difference indicated by the Bible texts referenced and the statements made by EGW. Yet if he looks closely at the text Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
...appeared once for all at the end of the ages... End of what age? And according to the references from Lev. The High Priest made an sacrifice before entering into the most Holy Place, you comment was that Jesus did this at the cross and when He returned to Heaven he immediately went into the Most Holy Place for the rest of the "Day of Atonement" but again in Hebrews the example was yearly but Jesus' was once. This is in a different time scale so because of the difference in time scale, i.e. many to one, we must use the example as a reference to order and not exact. I take the readings in Hebrews as Paul's reintroducing the true meaning into the sanctuary service from which the Jew's had fallen from.

 

[Jon0388g]

Why does the debate not take place in the Non-denominational forum?

I'm wondering why nobody has thought of there yet....?



Jon

 

[reddogs]

Why does the debate not take place in the Non-denominational forum?

I'm wondering why nobody has thought of there yet....?



Jon

Its one of those 'couldve, wouldve, shouldve' things, but we will see how this works.....

 

[Jimlarmore]

I can see Tall73's concern with the difference indicated by the Bible texts referenced and the statements made by EGW. Yet if he looks closely at the text Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
...appeared once for all at the end of the ages... End of what age? And according to the references from Lev. The High Priest made an sacrifice before entering into the most Holy Place, you comment was that Jesus did this at the cross and when He returned to Heaven he immediately went into the Most Holy Place for the rest of the "Day of Atonement" but again in Hebrews the example was yearly but Jesus' was once. This is in a different time scale so because of the difference in time scale, i.e. many to one, we must use the example as a reference to order and not exact. I take the readings in Hebrews as Paul's reintroducing the true meaning into the sanctuary service from which the Jew's had fallen from.

Hello brother,
It's good to have you here. I look foward to seeing your input on this. I have been researching this for almost a year now and to be honest our church has some weak areas that need to be worked out on the IJ. I am confident in the day for a year principle so I am also confident in the 2300 days ariving at 1843/44. Heb 9:26's original language is supportive of an end time application of Christ's blood.

The investigative part of the judgement is implied and not specifically indicated directly by scripture. I say that by taking a narrow approach to the issues because without doing a conferance of the symbology of the sanctuary over to end time events it's just not there. Wholistically, it's there no doubt and I can see how it's been accepted as truth by our denomination. I see definite language in Rev 10 and 11 that support an end of prophetic time and in chapter 11 the judgement of the dead is even specifically mentioned with a context connection to the most holy of the heavenly sancturay.

I will help when I can with this discussion and add where I can. I think the bottom line though is in the sanctuary and it's symbolism. Many who reject the IJ do so on the new covenant theology and Christ but miss the solid connection of the sanctuary to Christ Himself. Everything it was pointed to Him and His sacrifice to come and now to Him as our high priest in heaven to complete the work there.

I look foward to getting to know you.

God Bless you
Jim Larmore

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Heb 9:26's original language is supportive of an end time application of Christ's blood.

What could be the indication that Heb 9:26 is endtime. The whole reference is to the sacrifice of Christ which had already occured. What do you find supportive of end time application.

26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. NIV

The only thing I can think of to support end time application is if one pretends that when the New Testament writers referred to the last days or the end times they were not talking about their own time but some time thousands of years in the future. But historically we know that they referred to their time as the last days etc. So I am wondering what you find supportive of that view in Heb 9

 

[tall73]

I am on the cell. should have internet on friday.

 

[reddogs]

I am on the cell. should have internet on friday.

Jack and James are going over your objection posts #8 & 9 in the formal debate thread and are putting/preparing their posts. I will copy and paste them from this thread to the formal debate thread, but as I said they are back at work so it may take till the weekend. Thanks everyone for your patience...

 

[Jimlarmore]

What could be the indication that Heb 9:26 is endtime. The whole reference is to the sacrifice of Christ which had already occured. What do you find supportive of end time application.



The only thing I can think of to support end time application is if one pretends that when the New Testament writers referred to the last days or the end times they were not talking about their own time but some time thousands of years in the future. But historically we know that they referred to their time as the last days etc. So I am wondering what you find supportive of that view in Heb 9

There's no pretention applicable at all here. In the greek there is more than one word used to describe the end times. In this case and in this verse it's the same word Christ used to describe the end of time near His second advent. I don't have my interlinear with me this morning but this is something I found out not too long ago when Tall was making his points concerning this.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[OntheDL]

Red (or anyone else can help me),

I have flipped through the pages in this thread. But I can't seem to figure out

who brought up the issues

what the main issues (the ones that haven't been addressed 100 times already) are

where the debate is taking place

why it is being cut-and-paste'ed here in the TSDA area.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Red (or anyone else can help me),

I have flipped through the pages in this thread. But I can't seem to figure out

who brought up the issues

what the main issues (the ones that haven't been addressed 100 times already) are

where the debate is taking place

why it is being cut-and-paste'ed here in the TSDA area.

The guys who are going to be addressing Tall's concerns on the IJ and EG White are new to the forum and don't have the required number of posts ( 100 ) to be able to have an input in the discussion/debate forum. Red's going to cut and paste from this forum to the debate area when they start posting.

Concerning the issues, Tall's made several points that he claims are errors in EG White's writings in the Great Controversy near the start of this thread. I suggest you go back to the OP and procede thru the first couple pages.

As far as Red's friends are concerned , all I can say is ,,,, stay tuned for the responses .

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[OntheDL]

yeah, I did read the first page.

Tall's arguments are pretty much the same ones from before.

The other ones with error numbers...who made those up? They are absurd charges. Here is one example...

GC482: Those who in the judgment are “accounted worthy” will have a part in the resurrection of the just.
ERROR 169: EGW teaches that nobody, from Adam until 1844, had been accounted worthy of resurrection. This includes Enoch and Elijah.

I hope no one wastes their time with this kind of junk.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

There's no pretention applicable at all here. In the greek there is more than one word used to describe the end times. In this case and in this verse it's the same word Christ used to describe the end of time near His second advent. I don't have my interlinear with me this morning but this is something I found out not too long ago when Tall was making his points concerning this.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

this is the computer age we don't need you interliner

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Interlinear Bible[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The King James Version (Authorized) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Heb 9:26[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [/FONT] ejpei; e~dei aujto;n pollavkiß paqei'n ajpo; katabolh'ß kovsmou: nuni; de; a&pax ejpi; sunteleiva/ tw'n aijwvnwn eijß ajqevthsin Íth'sÑ aJmartivaß dia; th'ß qusivaß aujtou' pefanevrwtai.

End:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 4930[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT] suntevleia[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (4931)[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Sunteleia[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]8:64,1161[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]soon-tel'-i-ah [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Feminine [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
   [*] completion, consummation, end[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] King James Word Usage - Total: 6[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]end 6[/FONT]

World:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 165[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT] aijwvn[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from the same as (104)[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Aion[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1:197,31[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ahee-ohn' [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Masculine [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
   [*] for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
   [*] the worlds, universe
   [*] period of time, age[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] King James Word Usage - Total: 128[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ever 71, world 38, never + (3364) +&version=kjv 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, miscellaneous 5[/FONT]

appeared:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 5319[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT] fanerovw[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (5318)[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phaneroo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]9:3,1244[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]fan-er-o'-o [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
   [*] to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
   1. make actual and visible, realised
   2. to make known by teaching
   3. to become manifest, be made known
   4. of a person
      1. expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
   5. to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
      1. who and what one is
   [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] King James Word Usage - Total: 49[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]make manifest 19, appear 12, manifest 9, show 3, be manifest 2, show (one's) self 2, manifestly declare 1, manifest forth 1[/FONT]

The idea that he appeared not with Christ life and death and resurrection but at some future time makes no contextual sense. It is true that end can have different meanings based upon what the end of is provided by the context. As in the end of the day is different from the end of the year. So with the context I still don't see how you are using the word end, maybe since I have posted the definitions you can now explain what you mean?

 

[reddogs]

this is the computer age we don't need you interliner
End:
World:
appeared:
The idea that he appeared not with Christ life and death and resurrection but at some future time makes no contextual sense. It is true that end can have different meanings based upon what the end of is provided by the context. As in the end of the day is different from the end of the year. So with the context I still don't see how you are using the word end, maybe since I have posted the definitions you can now explain what you mean?

RC, even Tall wont debate here, so if you need to, please take it to the D/D...